Friday, July 22, 2016

ROBERT CARDINAL SARAH STRIKES AGAIN!

My comments first: The essay below must be taken within the overall context of Cardinal Sarah's agenda for the authentic renewal of the liturgy envisioned by Vatican II.

Let's face it, when we had less so-called "active participation" in the Mass that was celebrated before and during Vatican II, we had nearly 90% of Catholics attending Mass. Maybe some were praying other devotions during Mass; maybe some were simply present in body but not mind; but I suspect that most were praying and adoring God many in their own ways. At least they were at Mass and adoration had its primacy.

When actual participation was mutilated by those who hijacked the council and arrogantly implemented their own agenda, the focus was primarily on who did what. If you didn't have your hymn book open and singing, if you weren't doing some liturgical ministry, if you weren't enthusiastically listening to the lector, looking at the priest and  the faces of those about you, you were a second class, pre-Vatican II Catholic. If you preferred the sounds of Latin even though you didn't understand it, if you wanted the Mass celebrated ad orientem and the altar high enough and far away enough to be seen, you were stuck in the mud. Reverence was out the window; relevance and kumbaya casualness replaced it. It was/is banal and boring.

No wonder so many periphery Catholics and those who were well rooted in the Liturgy ceased to practice the Catholic Faith regularly with the minimal expectations of "hearing" Mass on Sunday. When your ways of doing things are insulted, you are insulted. Why remain?

Ad orientem places the emphasis on God, not the community or how the individuals are "actually" participating and/or performing. That is left for those in the pew to decide how they will worship and adore God. This prior to the Council filled our churches with many more periphery Catholics and the more there the merrier!

In most Catholic parishes this Sunday only about 12% to 30% of Catholics will attend Mass. Many will participate as they have been mandated to do so by post-Vatican II liturgists.They should do so as they desire.  But, what if the 70% to 88% of Catholics who don't attend Mass on Sunday decided to return with Rosaries in hand or their own way of participating that breaks the icon of the ideal as set forth by modern liturgists, could we welcome them without insulting them? Are all welcomed or not?

VATICAN CITY —Diane Montagna
July 21, 2016

To coincide with the feast of Mary Magdalene instituted by Pope Francis on June 3, 2016, Cardinal Robert Sarah has written an essay which shall appear in the Friday, July 22 Italian edition of the Vatican newspaper L’ Osservatore Romano.

In his reflection, the Prefect for the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments has said Mary Magdalene reminds us of the need to “recover the primacy of God and the primacy of adoration in the life of the Church and in liturgical celebration,” and he highlights two attitudes of this great female saint which are at the heart of the preface and texts of the Mass: adoration and mission.

Here is an English translation of Cardinal Sarah’s essay.

The first liturgical feast of Saint Mary Magdalene

Witness of Divine Mercy

by Cardinal Robert Sarah

On July 22, by the decision of Pope Francis and in the Year of Mercy, we celebrate St. Mary Magdalene as a liturgical feast. The new preface, entitled De apostolorum apostola (“apostle of the apostles”), following Rabanus Mauro and Saint Thomas Aquinas, presents the beloved saint of the Lord as the testis divinae misericordiae (“witness of divine mercy”), the first messenger who announced the Lord’s Resurrection to the apostles (cf. John Paul II, Mulieris dignitatem, n. 16). I wish to reflect on two attitudes of the saint which are the heart of the new preface and the texts of the Mass, and which can help all Christians, men and women, to deepen our commitment as followers of Christ: adoration and mission.

The new preface presents the Magdalene, who passionately loved Christ while he was alive, saw him dying on the Cross, sought him as he lay in the tomb, and was the first to adore him newly risen from the dead. The text then highlights that the saint, honored with the mission of being an apostle of the apostles, announces the good news of the living Christ to the apostles who in turn would spread this news to the ends of the earth.

Love is what characterizes the life of Mary Magdalene. Passionate love, as the two possible readings of the Mass recall: “I sought him whom my soul loves; I sought him but found him not. I will rise now and go about the city, in the streets and in the squares; I will seek him whom my soul loves” (Song of Songs 3:1-2), for “the love of Christ possesses us” (2 Corinthians 5:14). A love that leads to seeking the Lord, as the responsorial psalm and the preface of the feast sing: “O God, thou art my God, at dawn I seek thee, my soul thirsts for thee; my flesh faints for thee, as in a dry and weary land where no water is” (Psalm 63:2). Therefore, dilexerat viventem e quaesierat in sepulcro iacentem (“she had loved him while he was alive” and “sought him as he lay in the tomb”). Indeed, “she came to the tomb early, while it was still dark” (John 20:1).

It is love which must characterize our lives as Christians, as true friends of Jesus. A love that leads to seek the Lord. This is the only valid program for the Church, as John Paul II reminded us: “The program already exists: it is the plan found in the Gospel and in the living Tradition, it is the same as ever. Ultimately, it has its center in Christ himself, who is to be known, loved and imitated, so that in him we may live the life of the Trinity, and with him transform history until its fulfilment in the heavenly Jerusalem. This is a program which does not change with shifts of times and cultures, even though it takes account of time and culture for the sake of true dialogue and effective communication. This program for all times is our program for the Third Millennium (Novo millenio ineunte, n. 29).

To seek Christ in order to love him, as Mary Magdalene did. Pope Francis’s words help us in this, when he tells us: “How good it is to stand before a crucifix, or on our knees before the Blessed Sacrament, and simply to be in his presence! How much good it does us when he once more touches our lives and impels us to share his new life! What then happens is that ‘we speak of what we have seen and heard” (1 Jn 1:3).’” (Evangelii gaudium, n. 264). To seek Christ in order to love him and give him to others. This is the program for the Church and for each of her children.

St. Mary Magdalene seeks the Lord, and when she finds him, she adores him. She is the first to adore the Lord, as the preface sings: quaesierat in sepulcro iacentem, ac prima adoraverat a mortuis resurgentem [she sought him as he lay in the tomb, and was the first to adore him newly risen from the dead].

Adoration takes first place. Mary Magdalene reminds us of the need to recover the primacy of God and the primacy of adoration in the life of the Church and in the liturgical celebration. This was a fundamental goal of the Second Vatican Council and continues to be so now. God must occupy the first place, but this cannot be taken for granted. John Paul II, on the 25th anniversary of Sacrosanctum Concilium, recalled: “Nothing of what we do in the Liturgy can appear more important than what in an unseen but real manner Christ accomplishes by the power of his Spirit. A faith alive in charity, adoration, praise of the Father and silent contemplation will always be the prime objective of liturgical and pastoral care.” (Vicesimus Quintus Annus, n. 10).

To adore God, as the Bishop of Rome states, in “every liturgical ceremony”; “what is most important is adoration” and not “the songs and rites,” as beautiful as they are: “The whole community together looks at the altar where the sacrifice is celebrated and adores. But I believe, I say it humbly, that perhaps we Christians have lost somewhat the sense of adoration. Let us consider: we go to the temple, we gather as brethren, and it is good, it is beautiful. But the center is where God is. And we adore God” (November 22, 2013). The pope asks us: “You, I, do we worship the Lord? Do we turn to God only to ask him for things, to thank him, or do we also turn to him to adore him? What does it mean, then, to adore God? It means learning to be with him, to stop to talk with him, sensing that his presence is the truest, the best, the most important thing of all.” (April 14, 2013).

Half a century after Sacrosanctum Concilium, the pope reminds us of the need to put God first: “To get diverted by many secondary or superfluous things does not help; what helps is to focus on the fundamental reality, which is the encounter with Christ, with his mercy and with his love, and to love our brothers and sisters as he has loved us. An encounter with Christ is also adoration, a little used word: to adore Christ.” (October 14, 2013).

Mary Magdalene is the first witness of this twofold attitude: to adore Christ and to make him known. As the preface goes on to say, following the Gospel of the day: prima adoraverat a mortuis resurgentem, et eam apostolatus officio coram apostolis honoravit ut bonum novae vitae nuntium ad mundi fines perveniret. [She was the first to adore him newly risen from the dead. He honored her with the task of being Apostle to the Apostles, so that the good news of new life might reach the ends of the earth.] “Go to my brethren and say to them: ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’ Mary Magdalene went and said to the disciples: ‘I have seen the Lord’: and she told them that he had said these things to her” (John 20:17-18).

Ultimately, we must focus our lives on Christ and his Gospel, on the will of God, stripping ourselves of our plans, to be able to say with St. Paul: “It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me” (Galatians 2:20). As the apostle of the apostles, Mary Magdalene goes out of herself in order to go to Christ with adoration and mission. Along the same lines, Pope Francis states: “This ‘exodus’ from ourselves means setting out on a path of adoration and service. The exodus leads us on a journey of adoring the Lord and of serving him in our brothers and sisters. To adore and to serve: two attitudes that cannot be separated, but must always go hand in hand. To adore the Lord and to serve others, keeping nothing for oneself” (May 8, 2013).


85 comments:

Anonymous said...

How long before Pope Francis removes Cardinal Sarah, I mean.......PROMOTES Cardinal Sarah to some little diocese in the middle of a dessert because he realizes he need an intelligent man to do the job.

And some other predictions from my crystal ball.

Archbishop Chaput will be next on the chopping block......I mean the next to receive an amazing promotion like undersecretary for the commission for the upkeep of the grounds of St Peters in ROME. It's in Rome so it's a promotion. And on the same day we will learn that FR. Michael Phlager is the new Archbishop of Philadelphia.

Just a guess. But I can absolutley seeing Francis doing all of these things.

Oh and how long before a revision of the CCC is announced. Just a guess but the revision probably started the night Francis was elected. Just a guess.

Anon-1 said...


“But, when the Son of Man comes again, will he find faith on the earth?" This is still the nagging question in the minds of many nearly 50+ years after the Council. I believe the next Holy Father -Pope Augustine perhaps?- will give us the definitive answer to this question. We must hope the answer will be a resounding YES!

Gene said...

One of my theology profs once said, with regard to denominations and worship, "If Jesus was to return to earth today, the only things he would recognize would be the Jewish Synagogue and the Catholic Church." I think we can now limit that to the synagogue.

Anonymous said...

Since post-Temple Judaism, or "Rabbinic" Judaism, is what exists today, with no Temple and no sacrifice, it is most unlikely that Jesus, who worshipped in the Temple, would recognize Judaism of the present age.

You had a silly theology prof.

Marc said...

Gene, I think Christ would be more likely to recognize a Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom than either the Jewish Synagogue or the Novus Ordo.

Paul C said...

Gene,

One of your best!

You can express something important in minimum words, with clarity, quite often.

And no plagiarism as well.

Paul C MA marks that last comment 84%,
1% short of a high distinction!

Your good jokes reach HD 85% plus level quite often.

And Father,

It seems your blog just gets better and better.

At midnight down under time one our Father, one Hail Mary shall be prayed by me and my wife for you, your parish and all who follow this SO blog.

I am not groveling.

I truly appreciate this blog.

TJM said...

Cardinal Sarah is papabile! God bless him and protect him from the evil left in the Church

TJM said...

Anonymous what you described sounds like hell on earth.

Anonymous said...

The Catholic young today know nothing of Latin. Why in the world would anyone want to go to a mass where the words were not understood. With all the evils of today who knows what someone is praying in latin and you are there participating in that service. If this becomes a reality for our church our pews will be empty. I for one will never participate in anything if I do not understand the words. Its dangerous. James

Anonymous said...

P/S Would an educated person sign a legal document written in a language that he did not understand? Would you rely on someone that you did not know to interpret the document or because the translation was written in a book be expected to know what you were doing? My attorney would laugh at an educated person who would do such a thing. How much more important in this life is it to pray than sign a legal document. We are expected to say amen to prayers in latin that we do not understand. We are not priests. We do not know that language. This world is very different from the world in my grandparents day in 1960. We have enough to worry about without trying to agree to prayers in a language we do not understand. Any educated person in the world today would completely understand what I am saying. James

Mark Thomas said...

Father McDonald, last week you said the following in regard to the ad orientem controversy that surrounded Robert Cardinal Sarah:

"But I am perplexed about Robert Cardinal Sarah being so reckless with his words when he suggested that priests and bishops worldwide start celebrating Mass ad orientem by this Advent. Given the fact that there is such opposition to it, the good Cardinal should have known that there would be push back and all the way to the top. I am sure Pope Francis must have gotten an earful from cardinals and bishops opposed to ad orientem.

"Cardinal Sarah should have known better. And as a pastor, when someone who is on my paid staff tells others of something that I had said as though I had decreed it, I get pretty ticked.

"I suspect Pope Francis may have been broadsided for it is possible in a casual conversation with the good Cardinal that His Holiness did say we need to study the issue of the "reform of the reform" but I don't think Pope Francis wanted that to be communicated to the world as an outright endorsement of ad orientem this coming Advent.

"And thus poor Robert Cardinal Sarah was slapped down in the most public and humiliating way possible."

Father, do you hold to the above understanding of the Cardinal Sarah controversy?

Please understand that I'm not criticizing you. After I had read Father Lombardi's press release about Cardinal Sarah, and having read your above comments, I shared initially the notion that Pope Francis had read the riot act to Cardinal Sarah.

However, I changed my mind on that after having read additional commentaries that rejected the notion that Cardinal Sarah had been "slapped down".

In particular, the following influenced my change of opinion:

Don Alcuin Reid, Sacra Liturgia’s international coordinator:

http://www.catholicworldreport.com/Item/4919/cardinal_sarah_has_challenged_the_prejudices_behind_certain_modern_liturgical_practices.aspx

"It has to be said that some responses on internet sites and even in prominent journals have been astonishing. To accuse Cardinal Sarah of lying in respect of what Pope Francis has said to him about continuing the work of the Pope Emeritus or about studying a possible reform of the reform, or to say that the Holy Father ‘slapped down’ the Cardinal, is patently absurd and utterly untrue.

"And there is no evidence from the Vatican’s statement, or elsewhere, that the Holy Father was either angry with him or rebuked him. It is quite normal to clarify false reports: that is what has been done – though the clarification itself could perhaps do with some clarification!"

"Cardinal Sarah remains in post and his Address has not been withdrawn. Indeed, it should be noted that he asked us to publish it after his meeting with the Holy Father, and he has withdrawn nothing of what he said in London."

Again, Father McDonald, have you altered your opinion in question? I wish to reiterate that I'm not criticizing you as I accepted initially your take on the Cardinal Sarah controversy . Thank you.

Pax.

Mark Thomas

TJM said...

anonymous, tell that to the Jews and the Orthodox. I love Italian opera, but do not speak a word of Italian, but I use a libretto if I want to know what the words say. Just like when I was a boy, before I knew any Latin, I used my Missal which had an English on the opposite page. The Mass should uplift you, inspire you, provide a foretaste of Heaven. I feel sorry for you that you have elected to choose such a culturally barren existence.

Michael said...

"I for one will never participate in anything if I do not understand the words. Its dangerous. James"

Friendly suggestion: learn some basic Latin and get a missal to read the translated prayers, then. It's not some cultish thing that has everyone fooled. It's very possible to know what the prayers of the Mass are saying.

Gerbert d' Aurillac said...

Anonymous if you would read the document Sacrosanctum Concilium you would discover that only the familiar parts of the Mass would be retained in Latin (Sanctus, Gloria, Creed, Agnus Dei) the rest would be done in the vernacular. Since every Catholic knows by heart these prayers their is no problem with reciting and affirming them in Latin. Every Latin Missal I have seen has the vernacular right next to it, so your argument does not hold water.

I really like Cardinal Sarah, God bless and keep him!

Marc said...

We are told that Muslims worship the same God that we do. Yet, they only worship using their sacred language of classical Arabic. The same is true of the Jews.

If you want to be truly ecumenical, then you must acknowledge that God has sacred languages that are set aside for use during worship.

Anonymous said...

Many mosques and masjids in this country use English for worship and preaching.

Only in Orthodox synagogues do you find more than a smattering of Hebrew.

rcg said...

James Anon, speaking the same language is nothing like understanding it. In fact, without an understanding of the roots of the words I am skeptical that modern English speakers have any idea what they are saying beyond about 100 common words.

Gene said...

Anonymous @ 8:34, My prof was speaking off the cuff and in exasperation with the varied forms of the faith in myriad denominations. I would not call Martin Marty "silly," thank you very much.

Anonymous said...

TJM there is a big difference in attending an Opera and the Holy Mass. Im just saying if this is the next step in the church you have lost the educated youth under 50. They are not going to attend a mass that they do not understand. And I agree with them. The Latin language is dead. Only people in the seminary understand the words. Im not going to sit in church with my children and have them read out of a book what the prayers are about not when there is a church somewhere that will pray in English. If other faiths such as the Jews practice this then Oh Well. I am not Jewish I am Catholic. James

Anonymous said...

Marc I do not understand you. I am not a Muslim I am not Jewish. I am an American Catholic. I will not attend a Mass not with today's problems unless it is in English. This is of coarse just my opinion. When I say Amen or recite a prayer I want to be sure that I know what I am saying Perhaps Latin is a sacred language but it is not my language. I need to hear in English the prayers I pray. . James

DJR said...

"I for one will never participate in anything if I do not understand the words. Its dangerous. James"


The point is that the Mass isn't about you; it's about God. And I feel confident God understands Latin.

When I go to liturgy at the next Byzantine parish (not ours), I hear Greek, Arabic, and Southern.

I understand some of the Greek, a little of the Arabic, and none of the Southern. Yet, the worship at this parish far surpasses anything done at the modern Roman Rite just down the street, which uses Southern exclusively.

Henry said...

Anonymous: "The Catholic young today know nothing of Latin. Why in the world would anyone want to go to a mass where the words were not understood."

Hmm . . . I wonder whether every Latin Mass congregation I see is so much younger in age that every ordinary form vernacular Mass congregation I see. With plenty of the singles (especially young men) that are nowhere in evidence at the OF Masses I attend. And with everyone participating prayerfully, certainly don't see any of those OF 30-yard stares. Maybe they don't find it so haaard to understand what's going on, after all?

TJM said...

Anonymous, you appear to have a problem with the English language as well: "this is of coarse [sic] my opinion." When I am at a Latin Liturgy I am impressed by nine and ten year old children chanting the Mass in Latin, perfectly. I guess you, like Bishop Trautperson, believe all people are morons.

Anonymous said...

Well my family won't attend a latin mass.

Anonymous said...

I personally don't think God cares what language the mass is prayed. But I am sure he would expect the people involved to be able to understand the Language. Its only the priests that want a latin mass. Bishops need to hear about this. Im not paying money each week to my church and sitting there not understanding what is prayed. Good for those who see young people loving it and understanding. In my church they don't and avoid it if it is announced. James

Marc said...

I won't attend Mass unless it is in Latin. I have no problem understanding the prayers since I have read them in English. Even if I didn't have a translation to read, I trust that the Latin prayers the Church has been using for several centuries now will accurately represent my prayers to the Father through the Son since those prayers are inspired by the Holy Ghost, who animates the prayers of the Church.

Gene said...

James and the other Anonymous are perfect examples of the handiwork of Vatican II. To quote the prophet, "They know not, neither do they understand, but walk on in darkness."

Flavius Hesychius said...

Anonymous @ 2:12,


As a Jew, I think you severely underestimate the amount of Hebrew used in non-Orthodox synagogues. The past 20 years have seen a dramatic increase use of Hebrew in Conservative and Reform synagogues. Indeed, Macon's Reform synagogue largely uses Hebrew. The rabbi that supervised my bar mitzvah (himself not an Orthodox rabbi) required me to learn Hebrew. Although I have long forgotten the ridiculous language, I can still chant the Schema if necessary.

I wonder, 'James', how old are you? It's ironic--you talk about how a restoration of Latin would lead to 'losing the youth', and yet you already have lost the youth. I meet young men all the time who've left the RCC because of their Sunday Mass experience. Some, like me, have converted to a group that actually takes its religion seriously; others have joined groups like the SSPX; others still have left Christianity altogether.

And, you want to know one of the reasons we leave? Because of opinions like yours that we're too stupid to learn a little Latin or that we're incapable of following along in a missal. That we're too stupid to understand 1900 years of Catholic tradition because y'all can't be bothered to teach it. You want to treat us like children? Fine. We'll go elsewhere.

You say at your parish the young people avoid it. Okay, it's not unbelievable. At the same time, I can provide a very, very large internet community [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Catholicism/) where most of the commenters will disagree with you. Of course, two opposite experiences don't cancel each other out, but there is certainly a trend one way and not the other.

BTW, I'm 21, and am not a seminarian.

John Nolan said...

James, what do you do when you find yourself in a non-Anglophone country? Would you refuse to attend a papal Mass in St Peter's because it was in Latin? Even before Julius Caesar landed in Britain in 55 BC Latin was being spoken in these islands and since then not a day has gone by when it has not been spoken. And it will continue to be used long after English has changed out of all recognition.

A man who knows no Latin cannot regard himself as properly educated. Blame the school system if you like, and then take urgent steps to remedy this deficiency. Apart from anything else, it will improve your English.

Victor said...

What you say is true. It is as if in order to be saved you must do the petty things the so-called litrugists say are necessary for you to do at Mass. Why should anybody come to worship God in a place like that where your freedom to worship has been so limited? On the contrary, the Mass is a place to adore God, which the New Mass makes exceedingly difficult especially by the constant rattle of the priest's voice and and other noises.
In the Old Mass, adoration is paramount, and the songs and rites were there to foster this. There was time "to stop to speak" to God, such as during the silent Canon. The language, the actions, the songs, were all sacred, other worldly, in order to foster our sensing the presence of God at the altar.
We talk about ad orientem as one way of sacredness, but another is the silent Canon, as the New Theological Movement has just raised:

http://newtheologicalmovement.blogspot.com/2016/07/a-call-for-silent-canon-praying.html

Anonymous said...

How wonderful that our new vice president will be a Catholic

Anonymous said...

Just what does that mean Gene?

Anonymous said...

Well you people go and listen to a latin mass all you want. Im American. I speak English.
I aint saying amen to nothing unless it is in English. Im just a country man and I don't have
time for all of you and your fancy words. Speak English. Got that" James

Tevye said...

Gene...your theology profs were protestants....It doesn't matter what they said.....

TJM said...

Anonymous, before shooting off your mouth about Latin, I NEVER accepted the vernacular in the liturgy. It was a mistake of monumental proportions but folks like you don't get it because you are wilfully obstinate and refuse to acknowledge the damage caused by an all vernacular liturgy. St. John XXIII said Latin was the language that joins the Church of today. Nice to know you place yourself above a pope and a saint. I have witnessed his wisdom when attending Mass at a parish comprised of Latinos and Anglos where we all worshiped in the Holy Church's common language, Latin, rather than being balkanized in Masses using our own native tongues. When I attend Mass in Latin the congregations tends to be MUCH younger than the ones who go to the English language Masses. But keep drinking the liberal kool-aid. You are very rigid in your thinking. Very sad

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 9:10 is a troll....you are all following him/her into his/her rabbit hole.

anon-1

John Nolan said...

Having read the 9:10 comment by 'James' doing his Jed Clampett impersonation I think we are being, if not trolled, at least 'wound up'. In the MR James story 'The Uncommon Prayer Book', set in the England of the early 20th century, the narrator encounters an old yokel in the train who remarks on one (Anglican) parson's attempt to add dignity to the liturgy.

'All the people about, they go to Stanford St Thomas Church, but my son-in-law, he go to Kingsbourne Church now, because the gentleman at Stanford, he have this Gregory singin', and my son-in-law, he don't like that; he say he can hear the old donkey brayin' any day of the week, and he like something a little cheerful on the Sunday.'

Gene said...

Tevye, Theology/Christian doctrine transcends the protestant/Catholic division. Theological dialogue has gone on for years between protestant and Catholic theologians in an effort to clarify and understand the issues that are important and which separate us. In both grad schools I attended, there were Catholic professors on the faculty and Catholic Priests and nuns were grad students. Especially when dealing with issues of heresy or the subtle encroachments of modernism, protestants and Catholics have much in common and are dealing with the same problem. It was theological dialogue, in part, which brought me into the Catholic Church, and an understanding of key issues and subtle differences between us draws other protestants in, as well. It is healthy and instructive to discuss issues such as Total Depravity (Calvin) or Atonement and see the differences, often subtle, between protestant and Catholic thinking. Augustine's treatment of sin and redemption has earned him the nick name of "the original Calvinist," among some theologians.

Jusadbellum said...

I'd just like to advise everyone who disagrees with Cardinal Sarah, that - as we were all told with respect to President Obama - to disagree with a powerful black man is ipso facto to be racist. And a hater.

Consider it a PSA on my part because I'm generous like that. ;-)

rcg said...

James, mind if I crown you? King James seems perfect here. Now, seriously KJ, it is good that you take your family to Mass and listen for effect. Very good because I am skeptical that many people listen much to even the EP and probably get more of their faith education from the dreadful hymns. I do think you are trolling us with a position concerning Latin that is championed and fairly well defined here by Fr Kavanaugh. But I will play.

So to your point: if you was working on your truck it would be a big help to have the shop manual. It has in it lots of stuff that seems foreign (not the parts but God help you if you got a English fuel pump). Anywho, they is measurements and lines between pictures that I figured out tells a man a lot about how your truck got built. If you want it to run as good as the day you traded for it then you need to know exactly how the parts should fit. Line 'em up right and no after market crap (sorry Father M). I swear sometimes I can't tell the difference in a carburetor set screw and a float valve adjustment, but you better keep track of it. Same goes with Latin. It's a might easier than mechanicing since it often don't matter how it goes together; just keep track of the fittings on the end of the words and the meaning falls right out. Except for 'ut' which is, as far as I can tell, a universal joint. If you get under the hood of your NO Missal you will find some of the parts are not original. They will run for a bit but don't take a load like the factum, er, factory parts did. People will tell you that they work the same, 'dynamically equivalent', but you hold them up next to each other and the difference pops right out. Those original babies will take a load, real punishment, and hold up solid. I recommend you look in to it.

Anonymous said...

The grown men in my church aren't going to dress up in some robe and play like they are alter boys either.
That job is for the kids. You men here only speak those fancy girly words. Get out and get a job and
work like an American.

Dialogue said...

I once attended a silly retreat directed by a religious sister, during which she led us out-of-doors to look at the nearby mountains as she recited something vaguely prayerful. No one objected that she had her back turned towards us as we all stood there facing those mountains. It seems to me that our Modern friends easily find God in nature and in certain crowds of people, but turning to face a wall, an altar cross, or a compass point just doesn't do it for them. Therefore, I'd suggest that the easiest way to restore ad orientem is to paint a few trees on the apse, or maybe a Sixties-era peace symbol, or perhaps even a photograph of Sister Joan Chittister, OSB.

Gene said...

Anonymous @ 8:57 pm, It means you are a moron.

rcg said...

Dang, KJ. It's "the *growd* men in my church *ain't*...." Tighten up your tie before anymore oxygen gets to your brain.

Victor said...

Cardinal Sarah also raises an interesting issue about inculturation in his address at Sacra Liturgia. Being from Africa, he points to the folly, of whom I would call the modernists, in trying to indiscriminately bring various cultural practices into the Mass to make the Mass more "culturally relevant". Sarah criticises this programme since it is God that comes first, not culture (in the sociological sense). The liturgy is to be shaped by God's will and any cultural practices appropriated to this purpose when proper to it, and he mentions the new Ordinariate Missal for the English as a beautiful example of such authentic inculturation.
The problem in all this, of course, is that Africa and those who live there have generally not acquiesced to the onslought of perverted Western "culture", leading to the Kaperian principle that Africa has nothing to tell the West. I would say that it must be the other way around, that the Church is meant to change the culture when it does not conform to God's will, not to acquiesce to it. That is what martyrdom is all about. In that sense for those in USA, one must chose between being an American Catholic or a Catholic in America.

Gene said...

No, Dialogue, put a photograph of themselves up there. They will never take their eyes off of it.

What's the Point said...

James,

I'm sorry to have to break it to you, but "Amen" isn't English.

rcg said...

What Is The Point is correct. It should be 'The' men, but we are being colloquial.

Gerbert d' Aurillac said...

In 2007 I had the opportunity to go to Italy. On Sunday we attended Mass at Santa Maria Maggiore, the Basilica gave us beautiful reverent surrounding, as the Mass started I did not know the hymn nor could I understand it, the Mass started and even though I knew where I was in the Mass, I felt I was outside, and not part of the Mass because I did not know Italian, nor was there an Italian to English Missal. I thought to myself "this is one of the reasons why the Church had a common language". Just a few generations ago people took Latin in school, the Mass was in Latin and everybody clearly understood it. If the Vatican II document on the liturgy would have been followed I would have been able to understand the Mass in Latin, chant the various parts of the Mass with everyone else. I would have only missed the homily. While I appreciate the use of the vernacular, the use of a universal language does have an appeal for a Church that is universal (Catholic). To be able to go anywhere in the world, attend Mass and fully participate with anyone anytime has a beauty to it.

Gene said...

What's The Point, Hey!!! What are you talking about!!! The Bible is written in English and that is goods enough for me. Heathen...

Anonymous said...

from Sacrosanctum Concilium:
"54. In Masses which are celebrated with the people, a suitable place may be allotted to their mother tongue. This is to apply in the first place to the readings and "the common prayer," but also, as local conditions may warrant, to those parts which pertain to the people, according to the norm laid down in Art. 36 of this Constitution.

Nevertheless steps should be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them."

a different anonymous

Anonymous said...

The "Roman" Rite is, itself, an example of inculturation. The music, the style of vesture, the Latin language, the gestures - these are all products of the culture not in which the liturgy developed, but of which the ruling Roman classes came.

Their cultural accountrements became the norm by, at times, the suppression of others.

Anonymous said...

Anon. 8:50,

I'm sorry, but I think that Gov. Mike Pence is an ex-Catholic.

John Nolan said...

Anonymous @ 7:00

The Roman Rite may have its roots in late antiquity, but is a fusion of Roman and Gallican elements and developed in what we used to refer to as the Dark Ages. The music in particular is a product of the prevailing monastic culture, and has nothing to do with the tastes of the Roman aristocracy. As for Latin, it was still the universal language of scholarship in the seventeenth century when Newton wrote his Principia Mathematica.

Anonymous said...

Yet, it was the Roman hierarchy that imposed it as "the" style for Catholic liturgy, no?

And is the liturgy really the place for "the universal language of scholarship," or is it the place for the language or worship?

Is there some sense in which the language of scholarship IS the language of worship?

John Nolan said...

Anonymous at 7:57

No. The authority of Rome led to regions wanting the most authentic liturgy. They sought it, it was not imposed on them.

Yes, since theological terms need to be couched in a language which can accommodate them. For a long time, and still today, that meant Greek and Latin.

Yes, indeed.

Any more questions? I have demolished your argument without having to go into too much detail, but I am prepared to argue it further, time and space permitting.

gob said...

When I looked at the picture of Cardinal Sarah at the top of the page I wondered...what is he thinking when he's putting on that outrageous outfit...and looks in the mirror at himself.....

Gene said...

Gob, He wonders what you are thinking when you put on your new dress, heels, and carry a purse.

Dialogue said...

Gob,

Would you make the same comment if he were White?

John Nolan said...

Gobshite, since you are obviously an expert in liturgical vesture perhaps you might explain what is outrageous about chasuble, pontifical dalmatic and mitre. It's what bishops wear, and the Oratory does not go in for liturgical minimalism whether in vestments or anything else.

I don't recall V2 mandating polyester ponchos, which would look totally out of place in the Oratory which, in case you haven't noticed, is a church in the Italian Renaissance style, and the vestments reflect this.

Sneering at tradition seems to be a hallmark of boring old geezers like yourself but cuts no ice with the (mainly young) Oratory Fathers. And the large choir, which sang polyphony and plainchant, was made up of boys from the Oratory School. There was not a guitar in sight, so no doubt you would sneer at the music as well. And the Mass was in Latin, which would surely have you grinding your dentures.

TJM said...

gob, our resident fake catholic pontificating. How special

gob said...

Gene says I'm transsexual...Dialogue says I'm a racist...John says I'm a boring old geezer...TJM says I'm a fake catholic....Good night folks...peace be with you. God loves you and I love you...

Gene said...

Gob, you, as a liberal, should know the difference between the various perversions and abominations. Cross-dressing does not necessarily imply transsexualism. It just mean you like to wear mommy's clothes.

TJM said...

gob I doubt you love anyone or anything other than yourself and left-wing loonism. You are one nasty dude

Anonymous said...

To an earlier blog, yes Pence is an ex-Catholic, but I would trust him over so-called "Catholic" Tim Kaine, Hillary's running mate, who passes all the litmus tests for abortion and same-sex marriage. "I'm personally opposed, but"...remember that from the days of Geraldine Ferraro and Mario Cuomo? Kaine has adopted that twisted thinking a generation later. In any event, I would prefer Pence or Trump and his 3 marriages or Clinton and her radical ideology---basically 2 bad choices this fall, though maybe not as bad as choosing between Hitler and Stalin....

Jan said...

Mmhmmm, look at Gob's use of...between words. Just like the so-called old ladies club. It seems to me that Gob could in fact fit the bill. He could be the ladies and he was relatively quiet during the ladies parade on this blog and so was Fr K for that matter - all the praise did go his way too!

John Nolan said...

Gob, why do you lay yourself open to ridicule by posting such puerile remarks?

TJM said...

"catholics" like Kaine, Pelosi, Biden and Kennedy and their bishop enablers have done far more harm to the Faith than ex-Catholics like Pence.Vatican II has probably produced almost as many ex-Catholics as the Protestant Revolt (I refuse to use the word, Reformation, because reformation it was not)

Gene said...

I used to believe the protestant Reformation/Revolt was the worst thing that ever happened to the Church...until Vatican II and, now, I believe Vatican II was even worse because it represents a victory of the Reformation mentality in the Church.

gob (bledygook) said...

I'm a grown-up, educated, intelligent (probably smarter than you), successful, adult man, John-Boy. The joke's on you...and your "brilliant" cohorts...(I toss in a hook, you can't wait to gobble it down and proceed to make clowns of yourselves...putting Gob in his place.)

I will be voting for the Democratic nominee in November. I challenge each of the Americans here to complete the following sentence: In the Presidential election, I shall vote for__________________. (I'd like to see how many will put in writing that "I shall vote for Donald Trump.")

Jan...what the hell...are you.....talking about....?

I'm bored...done with this discussion. I'll see y'all down the road...Peace and Love...

Anonymous said...

Well, Gene, as the Eastern Orthodox point out, there was no Reformation on their side of the Christian Divide---the Christian disunity in the world largely stems from the West, not the East. But you and others might be interested to read a piece from the rector of St. John's Episcopal Church in Savannah, defending the altar being placed at the back of the sanctuary, facing the Lord. This old parish in Savannah still uses the old 1928 Book of Common Prayer and unlike other Episcopal churches, has not moved their altar to the front a la Vatican 2....

gob goober said...

Newgene...I'll know whom to contact if I have questions about "perversions and abominations...you seem to know all about them...

John Nolan said...

Gene, the notion that Vatican II caused more damage to the Church than did the Protestant Reformation is, from an historical perspective, more or less unassailable. The Roman Church by the end of the 16th century was stronger than she had been at the beginning; the advance of Protestantism had not only been halted but was being rolled back. The intellectual life of the Catholic universities was far more vigorous than that of their Protestant counterparts.

There has been no 'renewal' of the Church in the 50 years following the Council; rather it has been a case of remorseless decline tempered by a certain amount of damage-limitation. In this case the wounds were self-inflicted. Malcolm Muggeridge, before he became a Catholic, wondered why the Roman Church was embarking on its own Reformation at precisely the time when the original (Luther's) was running into the sand.

Faced with accelerating social change, he believed the Catholic Church should have stood four-square on its traditions, particularly on its ancient liturgy. Its leaders thought otherwise, hence the present mess.

Gene said...

I am voting for Donald Trump with no apologies whatsoever.

TJM said...

gob, if you are voting for the Dems, you have earned hell. By by. At least you will be there with many apostate priests and bishops, so you can have a guitar "Mass."

Anonymous said...

So Gene is voting for a previously pro-choice thrice-married adulterer who has said he has not seen any need to seek forgiveness from the Lord...some choice we have this November....

Gerbert d' Aurillac said...

I will be voting for Gary Johnson, even though I have never fully embraced the libertarian political philosophy, he has good positions on the issues. Not trying to demean anyone, but I find it extremely difficult to understand how any Catholic could possible vote for Hilary or Bernie, the Democratic party has shown its disdain for the Catholic church, has violated religious freedoms and freedom of conscience, by virtue of their anti christian positions in the democratic platform should preclude any Christian from being complicit in electing anyone with their ideology. Archbishop Fulton Sheen sums the Democratic party with this statement.

A Plea for Intolerance by Fulton J. Sheen
Monsignor Fulton J. Sheen

In 1931, Monsignor Fulton J. Sheen wrote the following essay:



“America, it is said, is suffering from intolerance-it is not. It is suffering from tolerance. Tolerance of right and wrong, truth and error, virtue and evil, Christ and chaos. Our country is not nearly so overrun with the bigoted as it is overrun with the broadminded.”

“Tolerance is an attitude of reasoned patience toward evil … a forbearance that restrains us from showing anger or inflicting punishment. Tolerance applies only to persons … never to truth. Tolerance applies to the erring, intolerance to the error … Architects are as intolerant about sand as foundations for skyscrapers as doctors are intolerant about germs in the laboratory.

Tolerance does not apply to truth or principles. About these things we must be intolerant, and for this kind of intolerance, so much needed to rouse us from sentimental gush, I make a plea. Intolerance of this kind is the foundation of all stability.”

Jan said...

Whoever Catholics vote for this November they can be sure that if they vote Democrat they will surely be strengthening pro-abortion laws in the US and, therefore, be complicit in ending the lives of many, many thousands of American citizens. The only party that has done anything to reduce abortions is undoubtedly the Republican party and they have just adopted the most pro-life platform ever.

I was involved in the pro-life movement for many years. I initially became involved as a young woman because it was against my Faith as a Catholic. However, after learning more about abortion and the horrific methods used, such as saline solutions which burns off the skin of the baby, allowing full-term babies to be born and to suffocate and die, tearing the limbs from tiny babies, it is hardly surprising that I became convinced that it is a human rights issue. As a human being, I simply would not vote for any politician or party advocating abortion. I have never voted for a pro-abortion politician or party since my eyes were opened many, many years ago to what abortion is. Particularly in the US with abortions allowed up to 7 months gestation, abortion is nothing short of murder.

Those Catholics who are considering voting for Democrats this election should - if they don't already know - acquaint themselves with the horror of abortion. It truly is the greatest evil afflicting the world. Guided by the Holy Spirit, St John Paul II The Great spent much of his pontificate preaching against this great evil and he was right to do so.

As a Catholic, voting for any Democrat you will be voting for more of this:

http://clinicquotes.com/late-term-abortion-pictures/

It takes a very hardened heart to vote for such evil. It takes very hardened politicians to promote laws that enshrine that evil. Everyone in this world does have a choice - to choose good or to choose evil.

The only way to turn the Democratic Party away from their promotion of abortion is to not vote Democrat and to tell them why.

Anonymous said...

Jan you are not even an American. Why don't you leave the voting up to us.
You really have no life do you? You stay in your country and we will stay in ours.
You REALLY need to get a life. We are tired of your preaching every day.
Why didn't you become a nun?

Anonymous said...

Gene of coarse you are voting for Donald Trump.
You two are exactly alike. Well actually Donald is smarter than you. And more handsome. (and that is pretty pitiful)
I bet he would like some of your racists jokes. You are just the type of person he would love. Did you know he was not a Catholic? Did you know he has been married three times? Did you know he favored abortion before he ran for office? Did you know his VP is an ex Catholic (the man can't stand Catholics he says we worship idols) Maybe since you hate the pope, call priests devils, and insult bishops.... maybe you could join the VP's Church. EVANGELICAL. How bout that? Oh and you are just the kind of "good ole boy" that would love a playboy bunny for a first lady. Just your style. When you tell jokes about his wife be sure to make them simple so Jan can understand them. And good lord hide those guns of yours you don't want Hilary to "take them away"
LOL

TJM said...

Jan, and a priest or bishop who votes Democratic is an apostate and should never be listened to on matters spiritual. They should be sent to a monastery to do lifelong penance.

TJM said...

anonymous, your little god, Obama, should take your advice.He went to England,threatened the Brits not to vote to leave the EU,and they ignored the little thug and voted to leave anyway. Quite the diplomat, so-called "Smart Power" in action. Are you a paid, Soros, troll?

Gene said...

These people (liberal Catholics) view the Church as a social organization to be used to effect Leftist social change. They care nothing about doctrine, dogma, or liturgy. Most are doubters regarding the Articles of the Creed, many are downright unbelievers who remain in the Church in order to attempt to change it into the above mentioned adjunct of the Democratic Party. We need to understand that they are direct enemies of the Faith. We should shun them, scorn them, ridicule them, and identify them to others for what they are. There is no point in trying to evangelize them or reclaim them because they have already knowingly rejected belief. I guess we could pray for them, but it seems like wasted breath to me.

Anonymous said...

If only Christ lived in the souls of those who claim to be Democrats...I think Satan has infiltrated that party...same-sex marriage, abortion on demand at taxpayers' expense, activist judges who legislative from the bench. It is embarrassing enough that the far left Elizabeth Warren was elected from Massachusetts, technically one of our most Catholic states, but hey, they sent far-left Teddy (Kennedy) to the Senate for over 45 years....seems like we are drawing ever closer to the end times.

Jan said...

Anonymous July 26, 2016 at 9:39 PM, why don't you crawl back into the hole from whence you came ... you add nothing to this blog. In fact, you and your comments are so low that if you were sitting on a piece of tissue paper you'd be dangling your legs!