Sunday, April 17, 2016

PICTURES SPEAK A THOUSAND WORDS WHEN IT COMES TO CORRUPT CATHOLICISM AND REDEEMED CATHOLICISM



28 comments:

Dialogue said...

I believe all bishops and their clergy should "cultivate a simple style of life", as canon law requires, but I wonder if laymen be asked to do so, too?

Jan said...

Nothing like a good photo op - for most good politicians it's kissing babies, isn't it?

Anonymous said...

Jan, St Pope John Paul II also washed and kissed feet. Was he seeking a "photo op" too? Was that his motivation when he kissed the ground when he arrived for a pastoral visit?

Your hypocrisy is showing.

Dialogue - Yes. We are all commanded to make prudent use of the things of this earth, remembering the Universal Destination off all goods.

Anonymous said...

Instead of kissing the feet of Muslims who are killing thousands of Chaldeans, Copts, Assyrian Christians, Maronite Catholics, Syro-Catholics, the Holy Father should go to the stronghold of ISIS and make a profound statement by bringing home these Christians to Rome and see the devastation for himself. In Palmyra alone ISIS has leveled OUR and I say OUR ancient Roman sites for without Imperial Rome there would be no Roman Catholic Church as we know it. We owe ancient Rome that simple favor to save what is left of their cities in the Middle East, how very sickening to see not only churches blown up but 2,000 year old Roman temples, amphitheaters, my friends this is not only our history as Roman Catholics but my God it is the worlds history and Obama and the West has done nothing. As a lover of art and history my stomach turns when I see what ISIS has done to these Roman cities and churches. Yes, I know the Holy Father will be in danger if he went there but as the Roman Pontiff he must see for himself what ISLAM has done to his children and the Roman cities in the Levant. My friends we are not only Roman Catholics but ROMANS as well, Latin, culture, the arts, government, we owe Imperial Rome our gratitude and yes we must stop ISLAM at the gates for it is coming sooner than your think!!!

Anonymous 2 said...

Anonymous at 10:55 a.m.:

If it is “Islam” that is destroying this heritage (as opposed to a very extreme movement within Islam), please explain to us why “Islam” waited 1400 years to do so.

Anonymous 2 said...

And by the way, Anonymous, just how much of our heritage (and others’ heritage) have we destroyed ourselves (and are still doing so), not to mention the destruction of human life? Like you, it makes me very sad to contemplate all this but the problem goes way, way beyond “Islam” or even extremist movements within Islam. Civilization is a thin veneer covering the dark forces of barbarism that lie just beneath it. And such a fragile and delicate achievement is easily shattered, no matter which civilization we are considering. John Gray puts things in perspective in the following article on “The Anomaly of Barbarism”:

http://www.laphamsquarterly.org/disaster/anomaly-barbarism


Jan said...

Anonymous 9.15 St John Paul II The Great washed and kissed the feet of priests in line with Canon Law. Francis chose to ignore canon law, and in doing so set a bad example for the rest of the Church and in washing the feet of Muslim women, prisoners etc he got the maximum publicity out of it, the same with driving around in an old vehicle which he later ditched and went back to the Pope mobile. I have no doubt he is being used as a political tool in all of this.

John Nolan said...

JP II's tarmac-kissing was rather embarrassing. I can understand his wishing to kiss the soil of his native Poland, but London Heathrow? Do me a favour. And kissing the Koran was the worst thing he ever did as Pope.

The two cardinals in the picture are no doubt drinking to the memory of that great Benedictine monk and oenophile Dom Perignon. I would rather the Church be run by such gentlemen than by badly-dressed prelates who like being photographed kissing the feet of infidels.

How did Kipling put it?
'A-wasting Christian kisses on a heathen idol's foot.
Bloomin' idol made of mud
That they call the great Gawd Budd ...'

'Redeemed Catholicism' my foot.

Jan said...

Well, John, I think it was in fact a blessing for the London Airport tarmac to be kissed by a saint. And anyway here is an explanation for it:

"Wojtyła returned to Poland in the summer of 1948 for his first pastoral assignment in the village of Niegowić, fifteen miles (24 kilometres) from Kraków, at the Church of the Assumption. He arrived at Niegowić at harvest time, where his first action was to kneel and kiss the ground.[51] He repeated this gesture, which he adapted from the French saint Jean Marie Baptiste Vianney,[51] throughout his papacy."

As regards kissing the Koran, it has been queried as to whether it was actually the Koran and whether he knew what it was. He was given a gift and did that as a gesture.

The difference is the gift was unexpected whereas Francis invited the Muslims - including women - and went thus against the rubrics which stated 12 men as Christ washed the feet of his apostles. I think your poem is very apt and sums it up well and no I don't think it is an example of redeemed Catholicism.

Anonymous said...

Jan - But when Francis kisses, you call is a photo op. When John Paul kissed, you called it a blessing...

And you STILL don't see your hypocrisy.

John Nolan said...

Well, most of the kissing was removed from the liturgy in the 1960s so presumably has to find another outlet.

Agnes said...

Anonymous at 8:22 AM:

I'm not sure why you feel the need to call Jan a hypocrite, as there is nothing in what she writes that could give someone such an impression. A hypocrite is a person who states he believes in something when, in fact, he does not. Pretense is the core of hypocrisy. More often than not when we call someone a hypocrite what we actually mean is that the person appears to be acting inconsistently with his stated beliefs. However, the two are not the same, as we can truly believe something but fall short of our ideals.

John Nolan said...

Agnes, indeed. A hypocrite is someone who preaches one thing and practises the opposite. Apparent inconsistency (and in Jan's case it is more perceived than actual) does not amount to hypocrisy.

Anonymous said...

A hypocrite is one who, when the Pope she likes does something and gets praised. But when a Pope she does not like does virtually the same thing, that pope gets criticized.

It's not about Canon Law or rubrics, or "proper" liturgy. Those are all merely comfortable evasions. JP2 kissed the ground...how holy! Francis kised the Museum's foot, and he is a publicity hound. Yep, it's hypocrisy.

Anonymous said...

"Muslim's" not museum...

Dialogue said...

John Nolan,

"Well, most of the kissing was removed..." Good point!

Dialogue said...

Anonymous,

Whatever the merits of your concerns, the word "hypocrisy" does not apply, for the reasons already given. Perhaps you me "inconsistency".

Jan said...

Anonymous at 8.22 it seems to have gone right over your head that my point wasn't Pope Francis kissing feet but I pointed out twice that Pope Francis went against the rubrics in washing and kissing the feet of non-priests and women. This was advertised days in advance in the press that he was going to do so. That is what created the photo-op. If he had kissed the feet of priests as his predecessors did it would not have created headlines and the press wouldn't have been interested. Also, if you don't want a press gathering why tell the press what you are going to do ahead of time? Why move the ceremony out of a church, into a prison, etc, etc? Why ride around in public in a pokey car? It all seems so contrived ... and I'm sorry if you haven't got the acumen to understand what others see.

Anonymous said...

Jan, and John Paul kissing the ground didn't create a photo op?

Of course it did. And it was known in advance that this was his practice, so it's not as if he didn't know 1) what he was doing and 2) that it would catch the eye and the lens.

The rubrics are not written in stone nor are they the measure of faith. A person can follow all the rules and still be a rotten person. Francis isn't under the illusion that rules make the Christian, and that is a good thing.

Anonymous said...

And others see what they want to see. Your "pokey car" is a sign to others that Francis doesn't give a tinker's darn what you and other nay-sayers think, that he is not interested in useless signs of wealth and power (think Mercedes limo and jeweled vestments) and that he is quite happy to be his own man. He doesn't meet you expectations, but your expectations just don't matter.

John Nolan said...

He can't be pope and 'his own man'. If he wasn't up to the job (and it becomes increasingly obvious that he isn't) then he shouldn't have accepted it in the first place.

Jan said...

Anonymous 8:03, well, the poxy car didn't last long and Francis is now back in the Mercedes Popemobile "for security reasons", unlike his predecessors who just - according to you - liked the status. I believe that St Martha's where he lives is a luxurious hotel. Many of those who attempt to tear down anything that is uplifting and noble, behind the scenes you often find they are cosseted in luxury and have the finest things for themselves. You only have to look at communist China to see that they have developed their own ruling class of power, wealth and status, while the peasants ...

Jan said...

Anonymous, no, John Paul kissed the ground in every country he went to and so it was of little interest to the press. The press are only interested in a Pope that doesn't stick to the rules. That is what they love about Francis. And it is said that if you aren't faithful in small things you are unlikely to be faithful in the larger things and that appears to be what we are seeing ...

Anonymous said...

John, if Francis is not his own man, then he is 1) not Pope, 2) not priest, and 3) not human. Ordination brings about an ontological change. It does not change a man into some nameless, personality-less humanoid "thing.". The man serves in the office of Pope. He is not subsumed by the office.

For the record, I think he's doing a fine job as Pontiff.

Anonymous said...

Jan, I googled "John Paul Kissing Ground" and saw more than 50 DIFFERENT images of his act in 50 places. How can you say there was little interest in the press?

Dialogue said...

Anonymous,

In what way has John indicated that popes shouldn't have names, personalities of humanity? Also, the Associated Press, Reuters and other such agencies provide a very large number of photographs, few of which are ever accompanied by major news stories.

Jan said...

Yes, anonymous, and if you click on the photos you will see that they are just one photo amidst a series of photos depicting St John Paul The Great's trip to one country or another. There is no comment about it, other than the title "John Paul kissing the ground". His kissing the ground didn't create a story. The press were there on his arrival in a new country, not because he kissed the ground.

On the other hand, if you click on the countless photos of Francis kissing feet, there is a long statement along with it in each case. That is a photo-op - a whole story created around his foot kissing. The press are there, simply because he kissed the feet of women, etc.

Here is what one publication said:

"Francis' decision in 2013 to perform the Holy Thursday ritual on women and Muslim inmates at a juvenile detention center helped define his rule-breaking papacy just two weeks after his election. It riled traditionalist Catholics, who pointed to the Vatican's own regulations that the ritual be performed only on men since Jesus' 12 apostles were men.

But as archbishop of Buenos Aires, Cardinal Jorge Mario Bergoglio frequently performed the ritual on women — a practice that he seems intent on keeping up now that he is pope."

You are happy with him being a rule breaker. No doubt you yourself are a jay walker, someone who doesn't believe in any rules or regulations - no 10 Commandments for you - unlike others who know that rules and regulations are required in order for society to function properly and so too the Church. It is when people break the rules: cheat, steal, commit murder, overcharge people, run red lights, rob the poor that society doesn't work. Francis is not humble because he has obviously never subjected himself to the authority of the Church. He does what he likes when he likes. He speaks of people, priests and others in derogatory terms when and as he like. He is totally unlike his predecessors. So the Church is suffering and will continue to suffer during his pontificate.

Anonymous said...

Jan, yes, his kissing the ground did create the story and did catch the eye of the photo journalists. After this became the norm for his visits, no one commented. The same will be true of Francia.

Rather than complain, you might learn from the pix of Francis washing feet, reflecting on what you do to contribute to the reduction of friction between religions,