The ongoing improvement of the Catholic Liturgy after the iconoclasm of the 1970's is happening both officially and organically.
Younger priests as old as me, love the now three forms of the Catholic Mass in the one Latin Rite, the Ordinary Form, the Extraordinary Form and the Ordinariate Form with its options.
If you would have told me even two years ago that a high ranking cardinal Vatican Curia official along with Cardinals Wurel and Mahoney would be a part of the Ordinariate Mass with Old English and EF sensibilities, I would have said, "no way!" But WAY!
While the EF Mass seems to have stalled as a kind of "boutique Mass," it is still exerting influence on priests who celebrate both forms and the congregations that experience both forms.
Of course we have the glorious new English translation of the Ordinary Form that has an improved GIRM. This is official and I do not know of too many priests that continue to use the older English form as though that is the English of all ages.
Although other liturgical blogs seem to be deaf, dumb and blind to even reporting on the Ordinariate's wonderful new Missal, Divine Worship, I insist that this missal, apart from the Anglican Patrimony, is the third Missal that is the best of the EF and the OF, a third way that Pope Benedict envisioned.
It has so many EF sensibilities but won't turn off priests who are opposed to the EF in principle. It has OF sensibilities too but given the EF traits it will please the vast majority of people who want a more reverent experience of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and a return to tradition.
God is good!
38 comments:
"Younger priests as old as me,..."
Huh?
First, no younger priests are as old as you.
Second, it should be "Younger priests as old as I,..."
Also, your disclaimer, "Comments that I post do not necessarily reflect my views or that of my Bishop or of the Church." should read, "Comments that I post do not necessarily reflect my views or THOSE of my Bishop or of the Church."
the "other liturgical blogs" are aghast because their pathetic, banal world of liturgy is being rejected by the canaille. Elites can't handle that
"It has so many EF sensibilities but won't turn off priests who are opposed to the EF in principle."
I was about to say...It is good that said priests weren't alive decades ago and any time throughout the centuries when the EF was the beloved Mass of priests and laymen. But then I contemplated the reality that as soon as the opportunity arrived during the 1960s to have shed themselves of the TLM, one priest after another did so happily. It amazes me but I guess that the reality is that decades ago as is most certainly the case today, a great many priests despised the TLM.
That said, Father, I am not certain as to why a priest who despises the TLM would favor the "third way" Divine Worship Mass. After all, the "third way" Mass is TLM-like. I wouldn't think that a priest who is turned off by the TLM would be keen to turn to the TLM-like Divine Worship Mass.
I have found that priests who are turned off by the TLM don't have any use for Holy Tradition and majestic worship. But perhaps you are correct. We will see.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Is the following "solution" to the Latin Church's Liturgical War problematic?
1. Many, almost certainly the majority, of bishops work to keep the growth of the TLM to as low a level as possible. Therefore, His Holiness Pope Francis would level the liturgical playing field, at least to some extent, via the establishment of a TLM Ordinariate. That would grant to the TLM at least a fighting chance to move beyond it's virtual ghetto existence as established by the many bishops who despise said Mass.
2. Bishops and priests who favor the "reform of the reform" of the Nouvs Ordo would continue to "Traditionalize" the Novus Ordo within their dioceses and parishes.
3. Bishops and priests who favor "modern" Novus Ordo Masses would continue on that path.
4. The Ordinariates under Bishop Lopes are free to grow the Divine Worship Mass.
From there, the "marketplace" will determine the growth of each Mass in question. The Latin Church Faithful will have the above options from which to choose. Each Mass would rise or fall in time.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
To paraphrase Mark Twain, sometimes I wonder if the Church is being run by really smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it.
Father McDonald said..."Although other liturgical blogs seem to be deaf, dumb and blind to even reporting on the Ordinariate's wonderful new Missal, Divine Worship."
Of all the Catholic blogs that I read (Traditional, conservative, liberal), Father McDonald's and Vox Cantoris are the only bloggers who devoted serious coverage to Divine Worship.
A great many liberals and Traditionalists share the narrative that His Holiness Pope Francis is a radical who despises beautiful liturgy. Therefore, neither group in question is keen to publicize Divine Worship: The Missal.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Father McDonald, you may be interested in the following article written late last year:
Why Divine Worship: The Missal is so Important
by Revd Fr Christopher Smith
http://www.chantcafe.com/2015/11/why-divine-worship-missal-is-so.html
Among the points that Father Smith made is the following:
4. "Could greater access to the Anglican Ordinariate use even outside the communities established for that reason not be a boon for mutual enrichment? Should the modern Roman Rite be forced into a position where another form of the Rite cannot influence it at all?
"I say this because I see ample opportunity for growth outside of the confines of the Personal Ordinariate, although it is clear that the new liturgy is proper to it. To make a parallel, the communities answerable to the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei have the right to exclusive use of the 1962 Missal.
"But, as we know, the Extraordinary Form is alive and well outside those communities, who have not suffered because of its availability elsewhere, and the two forms of the Roman Mass can coexist peacefully even in the same parish.
"I even have been told that there are parishes which have the three forms of the Roman Rite. Why should there not be more, where there is a desire on the part of the faithful or for the spiritual good of the priest celebrant to have it?
"The Church has made a careful and beautiful discernment of what parts of the Anglican patrimony can be united without being absorbed into the Catholic Church and in her Roman liturgical tradition. Can we safely assume that the Spirit who worked to bring this marvel about could also work wonders unthought-of of if this patrimony is unleashed in the heart of the Church?"
---------------------------------------------------------
By the way, here is the link to the parish that Father Smith noted offered the "three forms of the Roman Rite":
http://www.holyrosaryindy.org/
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Why not have an ordinariate for the following:
Each Religious Order
Each Country with at least 5 dioceses (groupings for those with fewer than 5)
Each Language Group
Each group of former Protestants (one for Lutherans, one for Baptists, one for
Presbyterians, etc)
Rednecks ("The Lord be with y'all")
East Coast Elites ("The Lord be with Yale") to include graduates of Cambridge
and Oxford, and the Metropolitan Elites
All members of any nation's hereditary nobility
The NASCAR crowd ("In the name of the Raceway, the Pit Crew, and the Checkered
Flag. Amen")
Jersey Shore Fans
What you end up with is exactly the opposite of what so many traditionalists argue for: one rite that is the same in every place.
I don't think this Balkanization is necessary or helpful.
Neither group of blogs like to comment much on the Ordinariate Missal because the liberals don't like its movement towards the EF, and the conservatives don't like how it further entrenches the OF in the life of the Church! The conservatives(sometimes improperly called traditionalists) typically just want to return to the EF only and abandon the OF all together, but the last five popes have done the opposite and strengthened and further entrenched the OF into the life of the Church! It really scares both sides if the OF receives
appendixes similar the Divine Worship: The Missal, because it will begin to make the EF less and less of a viable option for replacing the OF. That is why both sides are staying away from it...if inserted into the OF, then both of their "ideals" begins to truly collapse! Onward with Pope Benedict's hope for a third Missal which finally combines the best of both the OF and EF!
I don't know of any Traditionalists who believe that the Novus Ordo will ever be offered the same in every place. The Novus Ordo has collapsed to the point that said Mass differs greatly from parish to parish within a diocese. Even worse is the reality that celebrations of the Novus Ordo can differ greatly within a parish. One Mass is "conservative". The following Mass is "modern". Then comes a "Spanish" mMriachi Mass. Then follows the "Spirit" Mass...all within one parish.
That, at least, describes several parishes in my diocese.
Therefore, as the TLM is a stable Mass and, from what I understand, the Ordinariates offer stable liturgy, then why not protect the TLM in the same fashion as Ordinariate liturgy?
With the TLM protected from bishops, priests, and lay liturgical terrorists who despise said Mass, the TLM Ordinariate would be permitted to thrive (or fail on its own). Again, the "marketplace" of Mass-going Catholics would determine whether a "form" of the "one" Roman Rite would rise or fall.
A TLM Ordinariate would permit Catholics to find a Mass (TLM) that would be the "same in every place". Catholics who favor the Novus Ordo would stick to Novus Ordo parishes. They could "shop" for liberal and conservative Novus Ordo Masses.
Then again, our bishops and priests could actually obey Summorum Pontificum. They could actually feed their spiritual children who desire and request to worship via the Traditional Latin Mass. But our bishops and priests couldn't possibly do that. Not that.
Pax.
Mark Thomas
Is this possible?!!! I actually agree with Kavanaugh...plus, that was a funny post. The Lord be with ya'll.
What is common to all NO Masses is that virtually all introduce novelties peculiar to the locality and in addition or pick and choose what to observe among the recommended alternatives. Ipso facto, the NO has a schismatic spirit which tends to foster instead of unity disunity.
I believe, the Council of Trent's genious in the liturgy was the recognition that that faith, especially among the laity, is fostered by most especially by reverent liturgical worship. Often we hear said that the Church was not in good shape even before Vatican II. What is undeniable however, that with the introduction of the uncertain NO liturgy the Catholic communities everywhere contracted spiritual HIV: it was not immediately obvious but very soon the fatal disease of individualism brought us to a crisis of faith of which it will take more years than most of us have to see recovery.
As Dora the explorer advises when you are lost the best thing is to go back to the start to find the correct way. Going forward with the current situation will not get us to the ultimate goal: reverent community worship in the Mass.
What's the point? Priests do whatever they want at Mass anyway.
I have never been to Mass where a priest didn't change, add, omit, alter something.
The problem isn't necessarily a missal or a rite it is uneducated priests who do not know how to administer the sacraments soberly with piety and dignity and adherence to the will of then Church which has always been the hallmark of the Roman Rite.
Instead we have boorish and arrogant priests who think they have the right to do whatever they want to do. As an example, who would ever think a Catholic priest would be in the sanctuary, vested for mass "kicking" back on a chair with his hands spread out behind his head, his legs crossed and constantly reaching for his plastic water bottle. I mean it's disgusting watching grown men who do not know how to act in public. I can't tell the number of times I have seen priests offer Mass unshaven, wearing shorts, or jeans or sweatpants and flip flops under the vestments. If they don't care enough about the Mass to even properly groom themselves why should I get up early on my day off, take a shower, put on a shirt and slacks, get in the car and drive to Church. And what do I find. A priest who clearly just rolled out of bed, can't read English words from a big book placed right in front of him. And the homily is ridiculous. Clearly not thought about and usually about nothing. A missal isn't going to matter because the present problems are too great.
I also agree with Fr. Kavanaugh. I only wish he'd given us the Jersey Shore version of "The Lord be with you." Here's my suggestion: "Ey! Tha Lord be with yous guys."
It is the attitude of the priest that is key. I went to a typical Novus Ordo parish Mass on Sunday with "Jollie Ollie" as "presider, accompanied by whiney, 1970s music. It was banal beyond belief. And it was all about him. Until this generation of loonies from the late 60s and early 70s passes on to their "reward" the laity will continue to be subjected to this utter nonsense. I have far greater confidence in the younger clergy to right the ship.
TJM, the laity subject themselves to it by going to Protestant churches on Sundays just because the signs say the building is "Catholic."
If you went to a building marked as First Methodist Church and discovered the people were sitting in the lotus posture chanting to a statue of Buddha, would you take their word for it that they were Methodists or would you conclude that the sign was wrong and the people were actually Buddhists?
I too agree with Fr. MJK, but please don't leave out the California guys and gals-- Like they are just like too AWESOME to be like IGNORED!
Entrance hymn: "California Dreamin' ". Recessional hymn: "California girls". So rad...
Marc,
Absent storming the altar and removing Father Jollie Ollie by force, what would you suggest?
TJM, I would suggest not going to those churches.
Marc, unfortunately they constitute the majority of "catholic" parishes in most communities. Punch a dissenting priest's lights out would probably be more effective because most of them are bullies, but rank cowards at heart.
Isn't it a mortal sin to attack a Priest?
Indeed, Gene. I believe it also results in excommunication. Or maybe just attacking the Pope. It's one of them.
Gene, not a fake priest. These weenies need to know their 15 minutes of fame for disobeying the Church's Magisterium is over.
TJM, Well, there are a lot of fake Priests...a target rich environment, the Church. LOL!
Can. 1370 §1. A person who uses physical force against the Roman Pontiff incurs a latae sententiae excommunication reserved to the Apostolic See; if he is a cleric, another penalty, not excluding dismissal from the clerical state, can be added according to the gravity of the delict.
§2. A person who does this against a bishop incurs a latae sententiae interdict and, if he is a cleric, also a latae sententiae suspension.
§3. A person who uses physical force against a cleric or religious out of contempt for the faith, the Church, ecclesiastical power, or the ministry is to be punished with a just penalty.
Fr. Kavanaugh, and a priest who alters the words of the Mass commits a mortal sin and is violating Canon law and the precepts of Sacrosanctum Concilium. Nice double standard of clergy hiding behind Canon law while violating Canon law. Have a weenie!
Marc said "the people were sitting in the lotus posture chanting to a statue of Buddha". Unfortunately, this isn't far off what some of our Catholic school children are being taught here, sans Buddha. They're encouraged to meditate while sitting in the lotus position while silently chanting a mantra. Other than that they are "led" by guitar music at Mass and all the gatherings for young people are the same where you have priests - conservative ones at that - sitting ideally by and allowing the laity to lay on hands and "heal" others.
As a result of this, I think the rebuild of the Church is largely now in the hands of traditional groups and I agree with what the holy Bishop Schneider recently said on this point:
"When the SSPX tries to believe, to worship and to live morally the way our fore-fathers and the best-known Saints did during a millennial period, then one has to consider the life and the work of these Catholic priests and faithful of the SSPX as a gift for the Church in our days – even as one of the several instruments which the Divine Providence uses to remedy the enormity of the current general crisis of the faith, of the morals and of the liturgy inside the Church.
In some sectors of the SSPX there are, however, as it is the case in every human society some eccentric personalities. They have a method and a mindset which lack justice and charity and consequently the true “sentire cum ecclesia,” and there is the danger of an ecclesial autocephaly and to be the last judicial instance in the Church. However, to my knowledge, the healthier part corresponds to the major part of the SSPX and I consider their General Superior, His Excellency Monsignor Bernard Fellay, as an exemplarily and true Catholic bishop. There is some hope for a canonical recognition of the SPPX."
In response to Mark Thomas I don't think there is a need for a TLM ordinariate and the holy Bishop Schneider answers the point well: "One can compare the traditional Mass with a lion: Let him free, and he will defend himself" He says:
"According to the intention of Pope Benedict XVI, and the clear norms of the Instruction “Universae Ecclesiae,” all Catholic seminarians have to know the traditional form of the Mass and be able to celebrate it. The same document says that this form of Mass is a treasure for the entire Church – thus it is for all of the faithful.
Pope John Paul II made an urgent appeal to all bishops to accommodate generously the wish of the faithful regarding the celebration of the traditional form of the Mass. When clerics and bishops obstruct or restrict the celebration of the traditional Mass, they don’t obey what the Holy Spirit says to the Church, and they are acting in a very anti-pastoral way. They behave as the possessors of the treasure of the liturgy, which does not belong to them, for they are only administrators.
In denying the celebration of the traditional Mass or in obstructing and discriminating against it, they behave like an unfaithful and capricious administrator who – contrary to the instructions of the house-father – keeps the pantry under lock or like a wicked stepmother who gives the children a meager fare. Perhaps such clerics have fear of the great power of the truth irradiating from the celebration of the traditional Mass. One can compare the traditional Mass with a lion: Let him free, and he will defend himself."
TJM - No, editing the words of the mass is not a mortal sin. And no, I am not hiding behind Canon Law, just quoting it.
Well, dang, Kavanaugh, I can quote Einstein...big deal.
Fr. Kavanaugh, it is a mortal sin and a violation of Canon Law and Sacrosanctum Concilium. Thanks, you just confirmed all I need to know about you.
TJM - It is a violation of Canon Law, but it is not a mortal sin.
It is more than just a violation of canon law it is breaking the 4th Commandment and that is the mortal sin. Serious matter is involved; as a priest you should know this and if not, your training in the seminary and subsequent priestly formation would be seriously lacking and then you do it with forethought and full consent of the will. If your intention is somehow good to disobey Holy Mother Church even in her canon law, you should also know that the path to hell is paved with good intentions. Obedience to legitimate authority (and to ask obedience in this area does is not too much too ask of an adult)is required of the 4th Commandment unless that obedience contradicts divine law. This canon law is from the highest authority of the Church and does not contradict divine law. You've broken the 4th Commandment as the CCC teaches it.
Good Father, Is speeding through Georgia and South Carolina, sometimes approaching or surpassing the "Super Speeder" speeds and being let off by a kind-hearted cop, also a breaking of the 4th Commandment? Serious matter is involved and sometimes results in smashing into the rear end of a sheriff deputy's vehicle...
Obedience to legitimate authority (and to ask obedience in this area does is not too much too ask of an adult)is required of the 4th Commandment unless that obedience contradicts divine law.
Of course it is a mortal sin and if not for going to confession for this habitual sin and then by the grace of God, I would be condemned to the everlasting fires of hell if I were impenitent over it or said it wasn't a mortal sin when i know that it is. The clear and present danger is loss of life, limb and property. Very serious matter and I do it will full consent of the will even though I think the speed limit is too low on this rural roads. But yes, if not for my repentance, I would be condemned to hell for this specific mortal sin which you correctly point out. It is a violation of the 4th Commandment as the CCC develops. Who knew? I did! Did you?
Kavanaugh, there may be a nice, cushy Anglican Church waiting for you somewhere. You sound like a contumacious lib who is always ready, willing, and able to satisfy the needs of his overinflated ego rather than the rightful aspirations of the Faithful to a Mass faithfully celebrated according to the proper texts and rubrics. Non Serviam must be your motto
Good Father - One wonders if, after multiple infractions and one semi-serious wreck, an habitual speeder has any firm purpose of amendment. Given that you think the speed limit is too low on rural roads, one wonders if the next accident might result in greater damage to life, limb, and/or property.
an habitual speeder has any firm purpose of amendment.
Eh. I go like 95 on I-75N on my way to work.
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