Please press this sentence for the story on the former German Nazi Erich Priebke who helped to arrange and participated in the massacre of 335 Romans 69 years ago here in Roma at some caves on the outskirts of town.
The death of this criminal has caused some consternation in Rome as he was also a holocaust denier. The video at the end the story is interesting to watch.
Perhaps it is by God's grace that the reconciliation between Rome and the SSPX failed and that Pope Benedict had strict prerequisites for any sort of reunion based upon accepting Vatican II properly interpreted and the Mass of the post Vatican II period.
Fortunately we have FSSP who can offer traditionalist Catholics an experience of the Mass and valid celebrations of the Sacrament of Penance and Holy Matrimony within the context of the Full Communion of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church with Peter as her visible head and the Vicar of Christ.
My father, 69, years ago was in Rome with his Army division when this massacre happened at the order of Erich Priebke. At the time, my father would have been 34 years old and Priebke 31! Priebke died at 100 this past Friday in Rome and the Vicar of Rome representing the Holy Father, Pope Francis, denied him a Catholic funeral as it would give scandal to the Faithful.
My father died in 1987 but would be 103 today if living. He helped with the recovery of bodies and seldom spoke of his war experiences except this one which he said was the most gruesome that he experienced from North African to Livorno, Italy. How ironic that I am here in Roma when this war criminal dies and apparently as a Holocaust denier and innocent in his mind because he was simply carrying out orders. He personally shot to death several innocent civilians apart from organizing the round up and having them all executed including women and children.
43 comments:
Ohhhh! I'll get the popcorn for this thread...
According to this man's lawyer he made his confession and received the last rites of the Church. So in Charity one must presume he was reconciled to God. I distinctly remember the bishop of Rome stating "who am I to judge". I guess in this case he decided to judge. Also, one of the cardinals on his council of 8 cardinals is Sean O'Malley. Cardinal O'Malley not only allowed a public Mass for Ted Kennedy but attended, gasp in choir dress. At the time the cardinal said we must show mercy. Ted Kennedy was perhaps more responsible for the deaths of more unborn children than could be counted and caused scandal to thousands. It seems to me that the SSPX has shown more mercy to a child of God who, if we err in charity, asked forgiveness for his sins. I don't recall Ted Kennedy saying he was sorry for anything.
If Kennedy, why not Priebke?
Whatever sins he carried with him to his death who here can judge his state of Grace? I know what he wrote in his letter, and I know what he did in the war, but I do not know how he died. Death bed confession? Did he receive last rites? Did he receive absolution in Confession before his death? I don't know. What I do know is that Kennedy killed far more then Priebke and got a Catholic Funeral said by a Cardinal and no one was worried about scandal. Perhaps because it was politically okay to do so.
He will be judged by The Almighty and should not be by us, certainly he needs those prayers that were offered at that Mass, and shame on YOU to want to deny them.
With all due respect Father, your headline is as reckless as a Pope Francis magazine interview.
Since the Catholic Church denies funerals to members of La Cosa Nostra, I can understand them denying a funeral to an unrepentant Holocaust-denier/Nazi war criminal. However, how much do we really KNOW about Erich Priebke? Did he ever get beyond his denials of the Holocaust? Did he ever repent of his participation in exterminating innocent people? Had he ever made a sincere Confession? The Catholic Church granted a funeral to Ted Kennedy and he is responsible for far more deaths of innocent people than Priebke.
It is amazing to watch the duplicitous manner in which the SSPX is STILL labeled as schismatic, even after the excommunications have been lifted and even after key Vatican officials have long since affirmed that they are not in schism. I guess if you tell a lie often enough, people will start believing it.
I am not a member of the SSPX, but my heart goes out to them. They have one bishop who denies, not the Holocaust, but simply the MAGNITUDE of the Holocaust and he is silenced by his superiors and pretty much stripped of his duties and publicly disavowed by his order. But that's not enough for us forgiving, loving Vatican II types. No! EVERY SINGLE TIME the SSPX name comes up, we have to paint them as anti-semitic because of one crackpot.
Granted, consecrating bishops without Vatican approval CAN be construed as a schismatic act, but there is also wiggle-room in canon law that permits such actions in a state of emergency. And Marcel Lefebvre (whom we conveniently forget was called a "great man of the Church" by no less than Pope Benedict XVI) obviously believed the Church was IN a state of emergency. In all other respects, the SSPX leadership honors the office of the pope, recognizes the pope as supreme pontiff and supports him. They are simply clear that you cannot support actions of ANY pope or council when those actions contradict the longtime teachings of the Church. And history shows that we have had popes and councils that have done just that.
Why is it that the Chinese Patriotic Association gets a pass while the SSPX continues to be dishonestly lambasted by the media, both secular and Catholic? There are thousands of true Chinese Catholics who have suffered tremendous persecution, while the Chinese Patriotic "Church" denies the authority of the pope. Now THAT"S schismatic! Yet the Vatican is stumbling all over themselves to cater to this fake Church, leaving the faithful in China to suffer.
I can't speak for Priebke, but when it comes to the SSPX, let's at least get our facts straight. If it wasn't for them, there would be no "Extraordinary Form" today.
For what it's worth, there is a story on Patheos,com that cites the Italian chapter of the Society of St. Pius X:
The Italian chapter acknowledged in a statement Tuesday that Priebke was “controversial” but said he had already been convicted by Italian courts and has the right to a Christian funeral.
“A Christian who has been baptized and who has received the sacraments of the Confession and the Eucharist, regardless of what have been his crimes and sins, as he dies reconciling with God and with the Church has the right to have a Holy Mass celebrated at his funeral,” the group said in a statement.
The society also said that it “reaffirms our repudiation to any form of anti-semitism and racial hatred.”
Higgledy-Piggledy Edward M. Kennedy
Quite unaccountably drove in a stream.
Pleas of amnesia, incomprehensible,
Probably ruined political dream.
"In itself, this act [illicit ordination of bishops] was one of disobedience to the Roman Pontiff in a very grave matter and of supreme importance for the unity of the church, such as is the ordination of bishops whereby the apostolic succession is sacramentally perpetuated. Hence such disobedience - which implies in practice the rejection of the Roman primacy - constitutes a schismatic act" (John Paul II, Ecclesia Dei Adflicta, 3).
If a person commits and adulterous act, he/she is an adulterer. If a corporate person (the SSPX) commits a schismatic act, it is schismatic.
"It is impossible to remain faithful to the Tradition while breaking the ecclesial bond [schism] with him to whom, in the person of the Apostle Peter, Christ himself entrusted the ministry of unity in his Church" (Ecclesia Dei Adflicta, 4).
One (individual or corporate) cannot reject the authority of the pope and at the same time acknowledge and claim filial adherence to the authority of the pope.
"In the present circumstances I wish especially to make an appeal both solemn and heartfelt, paternal and fraternal, to all those who until now have been linked in various ways to the movement of Archbishop Lefebvre, that they may fulfill the grave duty of remaining united to the Vicar of Christ in the unity of the Catholic Church, and of ceasing their support in any way for that movement. Everyone should be aware that formal adherence to the schism is a grave offense against God and carries the penalty of excommunication decreed by the Church's law" (Ecclesia Dei Adflicta 5:C).
"Formal adherence to schism" cannot exist unless schism exists.
Cardinal Ratzinger also referred to the SSPX as a schism in his 1988comments to the Bishops of Chile. His statements are worth quoting at length:
"...the movement led by Lefebvre has separated itself by a clean break with the Church. A Christian never can, or should, take pleasure in a rupture. Even though it is absolutely certain the fault cannot be attributed to the Holy See. Thus we will be able to offer a place within the Church to those who are seeking and demanding it, and succeed in destroying all reason for schism. We can make such schism pointless by renewing the interior realities of the Church....If once again we succeed in pointing out and living the fullness of the Catholic religion with regard to these points, we may hope that the schism of Lefebvre will not be of long duration" (Speech to the Bishops of Chile, July 13, 1988).
Bishop Williamson on The Sound of Music: "Can you imagine Julie Andrews in The Sound of Music staying with the Captain if the romance went out of their marriage? Would she not divorce him and grab his children to be her toys? All the elements of pornography are there..."
Williamson also states that the World Trade Twin Towers were not brought down by airplanes, but by "demolition charges."
Williamson praises the anti-Semitic "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" which are Russian Czarist forgery.
AND, regarding women, Williamson says, "A woman can do a good imitation of handling ideas, but then she will not be thinking properly as a woman. Did this lawyeress check her hairdo before coming into court? If she did, she is a distracted lawyer. If she did not, she is one distorted woman."
Ignotus, Well, the embarrassing elements in the SSPX as well as the mainstream Church run the gamut from everything like Williamson to apostate Priests who will not answer the simple question of whether they believe in the bodily resurrection of Christ or the Real Presence.
Hard to say which is more shocking...LOL!
Kennedy, indeed...and the Church allows Pelosi and Biden, et al to receive openly and shamelessly and tolerates all kinds of heretical speech and nonsense by Bishops and Priests around the globe. Priebke is small potatoes...
Oh, BTW, Ignotus, Williamson was removed in case you didn't get the word.
Remember the Kennedy funeral? A notorious sinner got a near canonization with a multiple priests and a cardinal present and everyone who complained were told to shut up because Kennedy got Last Rites and presumably repented. Like the Pope said who are we to judge?
Well, I might just agree with Williamson about the role of women in society. Imagine how different (BETTER) the 20th century would have been if women were not allowed to vote.
Pater:
Could you extend your expertise on insisting that the SSPX is in schism to explaining to us why the Chinese Patriotic Church is not?
Oh, yeah, Gene, pass the popcorn please--And I will provide cokes, cuz caffeine is gonna be needed to follow this thread to its conclusion!! Gentlemen, start your engines...
Historically, schisms occur when the Church is not dealing correctly with an issue that begs its attention or if it is dealing with the issue in the wrong manner. In the case of Archbishop Lefebvre, the Church was DEFINITELY not dealing with the hungering, starving need of its faithful for an authentic, reverent and traditional liturgy. Cardinal Ratzinger was certainly not speaking infallibly when he said, "It is absolutely certain the fault cannot be attributed to the Holy See."
It was the Holy See that enforced the New Mass and forbade the form that is now called "extraordinary". This was not some infallible edict blessed by God. Its failure is apparent in the free fall of faith, vocations, Mass attendance and poor catechesis that has and continues to afflict the Church. I would submit that the Holy See was indeed at fault. The Church cannot err, but some of her people sure can. We have priests teaching us that the Crusades were a mistake and keep apologizing for them. If the Crusades were a mistake (I'm not convinced) then why can't we get anyone to admit that this council was a mistake?
I am convinced that the reason we are still stuck in this hole is because part of the Third Secret of Fatima concerns Vatican II and a great fall into apostasy. We have too many Cardinals and Bishops attached to Vatican II yet to think anyone can admit it's been a huge mistake.
Perhaps it would be best to reflect on the dying words attributed to Blessed John XXIII: "Stop the Council! Stop the Council!"
Pater Ignotus,
Has anyone in your parish ever come to you to request an EF Mass?
If so, what excuse did you give to deny them?
If they persisted, how did you end the discussion?
The only reason I ask is that I can just picture the scenario of a person coming in good faith to make a request, you denying, he or she quoting Summorum Pontificum, you interpreting it to support your denial, he or she getting frustrated, you quoting some obscure theological support for your Novus Ordo supremacy and he or she walking away crushed after you tell them, "You ought to start your own Church if that's how you feel!" Then mentally dismissing him or her as a schismatic or gnostic.
Ronald Reagan once said, "I didn't leave the Democratic Party, The Democratic Party left me." Bernard Fellay and his followers could well say the same of the Catholic Church.
I think Pater Ignotus is right about the schismatic nature of SSPX actions and attitudes. The group, which has no canonical standing within the Catholic Church, may once have served some reasonable purpose, but has long since ceased to be in any way reasonably Christian.
The SSPX is an embarrassment to Christianity. I'm tired of hearing about them.
Let the dead bury the dead.
CNN reports that it was recommended that a private service be held for this war criminal in his home with no fanfare and a priest provided by the Diocese of Rome. This would have been the best solution! SSPX without any respect for the Bishop of Rome and acting more like an independent Protestant sect intervened and grandstanded. This was an act of complete contempt and disobedience to the legitimate Catholic authorities in Rome.
Anonymous, Ignotus' church is the third church in a two Church parish. I think most of the people there think just like he does...there may be a few poor misguided souls. I doubt seriously if anyone ever has or ever would ask him for an EF. Why ask for bread when you know you will only be given stones, anyway? His excuse, of course, would be that the EF is offered at St. Jo's. If you want that, then go there.
To Anonymous at 1:06 p.m.: I've been asking Pater Ignotus that question for years and have received no answer. Don't hold your breathe! I'm still praying and hoping for a response (and I'm glad that hell still hasn't frozen over.)
Marcel Lefebvre's father died in the Nazi concentration camp at Sonnenburg in 1944. He worked for the Resistance and British Intelligence. Since the 1970s there have been attempts to smear the SSPX by trying to link it to far-right organizations. However, the Front National of Jean-Marie Le Pen showed little sympathy for the Old Mass and Lefebvre himself was a monarchist.
Traditional Catholics are not Ultramontane. Respect for the Pope does not mean hanging on his every word or trusting the Vatican in every respect. Lefebvre was treated shabbily and dishonestly by the Vatican (at the behest of the French bishops, who saw his seminary flourishing while theirs were emptying), and although I disagree with his illicit consecration of three bishops (JP II had no objection to his consecrating a successor) the SSPX has every right to criticize some aspects of Vatican II; Benedict XVI did also. Liberal heretics who are under no sanction whatsoever reject most of the Council (especially Lumen Gentium).
When the archbishop died Cardinal Silvio Oddi prayed at his tomb and said "Merci, Monseigneur". The surprising thing is not that Lefebvre stood up against the prevailing madness, but that no-one else had the guts to do so, Siri included. Shame on them, and kudos to him.
I appreciate what Pope Francis did, while waiting for the other black loafer to drop with some people Gene mentioned who are currently in public opposition to Church teachings, misrepresenting Her teachings (lying), and responsible for at least as many innocent deaths as all of Nazi Germany.
Now pondering John Nolan's point I wonder aloud for my own education: if a person's sins were grievous enough, I am assuming what Priebke did was bad enough, could the priest hearing the confession require a public act? I understand Priebke may have had a true deathbed conversion of heart; but it seems he publicly denied what he did was wrong. This would seem to clear up whether he was truly contrite or not. I am also under the impression a priest can deny a person communion if the priest is aware of a mortal sin and the priest also knows the person has not adequately confessed. Again, it looks like Priebke provided this evidence himself.
Another question: a person who is not a Catholic in good standing should not be allowed to marry in a Catholic Church. Would the same restriction hold for a Requiem Mass?
Anonymous@1:06pm - We had many at Most Holy Trinity (MHT) in Augusta request the EF when Pater Ignotus was pastor from 2010-11. Some were ignored, some blown off, some ridiculed, and some stonewalled with the usual PI refrain of it's not necessary here at MHT despite a priest of the Augusta deanery willing to say the EF on a regular basis. According to a friend on the parish council, PI even dangled the carrot in front of the council that there would be a regular EF "soon". It never materialized with a plethora of excuses from PI (e.g. "We've got to get the bishop's approval", "We've got to get the dean's approval, etc.). It has been almost four years since the last public EF was said at MHT. Perhaps PI should watch himself and his posts as evidenced by the one he made this morning at 10:41, "One (individual or corporate) cannot reject the authority of the pope and at the same time acknowledge and claim filial adherence to the authority of the pope". At MHT he clearly was not obedient to His Holiness, Benedict XVI and Summorum Pontificum. Don't expect a straight answer from PI. His year and a half at MHT are the proof.
I see from "Catholic Culture" that Fellay just unloaded on Vatican II again. He reminds us that the Church has, in many ways, been hijacked by Modernists. It is difficult to deny that.
There seems to be a parallel of smearing that exists in the political world and in the Church. In the political world, if all arguments fail against conservatives, the attempt to discredit them is usually to label them as "racist", "homophobic" and even "anti-semitic". The same playbook seems to apply regarding the SSPX. They have some pretty good arguments about the state of the Church. Their ever-packed chapels and seminaries are a living rebuke to the modernism that has made so many parishes a laughingstock. But when all else fails, liberals, modernists and "conservative" neoCatholics will pull out the "anti-semitic" label.
So, it must be asked:
Does this mean that the Church's policy toward Jews before Vatican II was anti-semitic?
Was the Church wrong in its treatment of Jews for over 1900 years?
If we believe Jesus is the savior and Messiah, wouldn't it be anti-Semitic NOT to pray for the conversion of Jews and wouldn't it be anti-semitic NOT to insist that they must convert to be saved?
Clap, clap, calp for John Nolan @ 523PM. Well said sir.
Kudos to MHT Dissenter for once again testifying to the reality that is Ignotus.
As for the rest of the thread, as usual when the SSPX is the subject, the venom drips from the page. I swear I'm starting to believe it's born of jealousy. You dispise the SSPX because you wish you had their courage and conviction. It's easy to "just follow the orders" of the Vatican. It's safe. It doesn't require any gut checks. Hell come to think of it, that's what Priebke was doing, "just following orders". Of course we think he should have had the courage to refuse, to do what's right, and his refusal damns him. That's why the Church holds ArchBishop Lefebvre in such high estemm, becasue he had courage and conviction to do what was right and not jsut follow orders.....oh wait....never mind. Seems The Church's Logic gets fuzzy sometimes. But no matter...do what the guy in white says, no matter how wrong it might sound, feel, or be proven to be. Now every take your Somma and feel happy.
Buddy Glass, indeed so...or they will just whine that traditional Catholics are "mean." They sound like school girls..."Ewwww...you are just so mean...*whine* *sniff*"
Or, they will call us "bullies." A bully is someone who states or posts something for which they have no intelligent rebuttal, or someone with whom they disagree. LOL!
Anon 11:47 - The passages I quoted do not reflect my expertise, but that of the Bishops of Rome. I am not familiar with the situation of the Chinese Patriotic Church. If you can find quotes from the Pope regarding that situation,we all might benefit.
Anon 1:06 - No one in my current parish has ever indicated a desire for the celebration of the EF mass. Not one. At OLOLourdes in Port Wentworth where I was pastor for 13 years, there was never a request for the EF. Not one.
In the 16 months I was at Holy Trinity I rec'd about 15 written requests. If someone made the request orally I asked that it be out in writing.
I said then as I have said here - Adlai,you are NOT paying attention - that the EF is not necessary and that other matters are of greater importance.
Not everyone who asks for the EF is schismatic and/or gnostic. As JP2 and then Card Ratzinger made it abundantly clear, those who are SSPXers are in schism.
MHT Does - Your parish council source is wrong. Never did I say the EF would be offered "soon" nor did I say that the bishop's or the dean's approval was needed. And the priest who was willing to offer the EF at MHT is long, long gone from the diocese. What has been Fr. Szuster's response?
Ignotus, ...and we should believe you, why?
In his encyclical, Ad Sinarum Gentem (1954), Pius XII said this about the Chinese Patriotic Church:
The promoters of such movements with the greatest cunning seek to deceive the simple or the timid, or to draw them away from the right path. For this purpose they falsely affirm that the only true patriots are those who adhere to the church thought up by them, that is, to that which has the "Three Autonomies." But in reality they seek, in a word, to establish finally among you a "national" church, which no longer could be Catholic because it world be the negation of that universality or rather "catholicity" by which the society truly founded by Jesus Christ is above all nations and embraces them one and all.
Whatever Christian community were to do this, would lose its vitality as the branch cut from the vine (Cf. John 15. 6) and could not bring forth salutary fruit" (AAS, 44: p. 135).
PI: My parish council source is correct. I guess your memory is either foggy or selective. Maybe you should check with the 2010-2011 MHT parish council president and review any meeting minutes from that sad era, if they still exist.
According to those MHT faithful who have requested the TLM since your departure, Fr. Szuster has consistently denied it. He has never made any promises like you did. Many of those who requested the TLM from him suspect that he was coached by you, the dean of the Augusta deanery, or our former bishop regarding the TLM. My friend on the 2010-11 parish council suspects that one of the sections in the 3" black binder detailing all of MHT's issues that you left as your legacy to Fr. Szuster focused on the TLM. Only you or Fr. Szuster can answer that question.
You should also be a bit more truthful about the priest who has been long,long gone from the diocese. He retired for health reasons and left St. Teresa's and Augusta for a return to his homeland in late 2011. Doesn't seem that long ago to me. Based on what I learned in my long, long ago Diocese of Savannah Catholic school education that used the Baltimore Catechism, knowingly not telling the truth could be either a venial or mortal sin.
Well, Gene, have you enjoyed the thread?
Templar, I understand the force of your point about the conscientious refusal to follow orders. But your comparison with Priebke is a rhetorical trap -- unless you are equating the Holy Father with Hitler, which I assume you would not want to do.
In light of the nastiness that apparently was generated by the SSPX attempt to give Priebke a public funeral perhaps the Vatican’s decision to handle the matter by holding a private ceremony instead seems with hindsight to have been the wiser course:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/16/erich-priebke-funeral-cancelled-nazi-italy
Whew, I was wrong, Gene; we're gonna need something stronger than cokes to finish this thread! Prolly even stronger than Mountain Dew?! I'm headed to the ABC now. Can't wait for PI's next response!
MHT Diss- No, my memory is not foggy. As neither I nor my associate was going to celebrate the EF, I would not have suggested it was in the offing. If you want to review the minutes, go right ahead.
No, I did not coach Fr. Szuster on what he should or should not do. His decisions are his decisions. The notes I left for him covered a wide selection of topics including the TLM.
There is much you do not know, and will never know, about the priest who returned for health reasons to his homeland.
MHT Dissenter,
Do you recall any provision in Summorum Pontificum that requires that a pastor must find that the EF is "NECESSARY" in the parish he serves before he would be obliged to accomodate a stable group requesting the EF? (That's funny, I don't either).
If fifteen people doesn't meet the minimum requirement (there is no minimum) of a "stable group" I don't know what does. The word I get from a reliable source is that you had about 400 in attendance at the last EF at Most Holy Trinity. That sounds pretty stable to me . . .
Why do I get the distinct suspicion that some of our clergy (possibly with episcopal encouragement at worst or, at least, episcopal negligence) conspire to "hold the line" against information about and encouragement of the spread of the EF in the Diocese of Savannah. Why can't we have frank discussions about this subject with our clergy with direct and honest answers rather than non-answers or coy, childish behavior on this subject?
MHT Dissenter, Of course if, as in Ignotus' case, one lies reflexively or if lying is simply an autonomic response...such that he would lie even if the truth would serve better...then perhaps that is a mitigating circumstance. If one believes his own lies, then is that a mortal sin? Deep theology here...look up "lying" in a Catholic dictionary and see if Ignotus' picture is by it.
JBAS, Indeed so...and the thread continues. However, I have done as Anon Friend has done and dropped the popcorn for strong drink...
MHT Dissenter:
My guess is that you probably knew what the answer would be to your request for the EF before you approached P.I.. Keeping that in mind, you should never have submitted the request in writing, as you helped him start his file on you, which has now become part of the diocesan file on you. Of course, we at least have a new diocesan administration, who may have discarded the diocese's old files, but maybe not. We are considered dangerous by the Novus Ordo establishment and they keep tight tabs on us all, looking for any chance to discredit us. I wouldn't be surprised if our computer addresses are being traced by the diocese just for posting here. And I mean the diocese, NOT Fr. McDonald.
Theorist - Actually I forward all requests for the EF to the NSA, the Illuminati, the UN Agenda 21 Steering Committee, and, of course, the Freemasons.
None were ever forwarded to the diocese.
Conspiracy Theorist, You may be speaking somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but whether you are or not, nothing would surprise me. Perhaps the USCCB, the FBI, and the NSA have combined to form a new cabal...the FBI NSA USCCB MOUSE.
Make sure you go visit the Fosse Ardeatine where the massacre happened while you're in Rome... it's a very moving place, it was for me. Especially to see the picture of the priest who was massacred by the Nazis along with the many others. The bus stop commonly used to visit the catacombs of St Sebastiano is across the street from the Fosse Ardeatine.
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