tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post9007102183653072026..comments2024-03-18T20:55:55.914-04:00Comments on southern orders: LIBERAL PROTESTANTS HAVE PRETTY MUCH KILLED ECUMENISM WITH CATHOLICS AND THE EASTERN ORTHODOX CHURCHES AND PROGRESSIVE CATHOLICS WHO HAVE JOIINED THE MENTALITY OF LIBERAL PROTESTANTS ARE NOT THE FUTURE OF ECUMENISM, CATHOLIC/ORTHODOX ECUMENISM IS THE WAVE OF THE FUTURE!Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-9927670526622136022013-01-14T14:52:57.487-05:002013-01-14T14:52:57.487-05:00Interesting there were German bishops involved in ...Interesting there were German bishops involved in the 19th Century considering their role in the original development in the 11th Century with the Gregorian Reforms. <br /><br />Must be something about German bishops! Perhaps that is indicative of the current Pope as well...<br /><br />I'd be interested to read what you come up with further on the subject of universal jurisdiction. Marcnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-83589933679514392202013-01-14T13:37:28.204-05:002013-01-14T13:37:28.204-05:00Mirabilis illa constantia, March 4, 1875 Mirabilis illa constantia, March 4, 1875 PInoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-71903985722490452182013-01-14T13:32:10.836-05:002013-01-14T13:32:10.836-05:00Re: Universal Jurisdiction:
"Shortly after t...Re: Universal Jurisdiction: <br />"Shortly after the abortive ending of Vatican I, the German Chancellor Bismarck published a letter in which he offered a skewed reading of Vatican I's teaching on the relationship between pope and bishops. In Bismarck's view papal authority had, by conciliar decree, essentially absorbed any and all legitimate authority of the local bishops. The German bishops felt compelled to offer a forceful response to Bismarck, rejecting his interpretation and offering what amounted to an important commentary and even development of the Council's teaching. In 1875 Pope Pius IX explicitly made his own the teaching of the German bishops." <br />Readings in Church Authority: Gifts and Challenges for Contemporary Catholicism, by Gerard Mannion, page 223.<br /><br />I am looking for the English version of the German bishops' letter and Pio Nono's reply.Pater Ignotusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-4955408835396758302013-01-14T12:12:58.325-05:002013-01-14T12:12:58.325-05:00Interesting points. What you've quoted seems t...Interesting points. What you've quoted seems to conflate the separate issues of infallibility, universal jurisdiction, and primacy. The perceived need for a central law giver suggests the development of an overarching primacy and possibly universal jurisdiction to a degree. But I don't see a necessary correlation with infallibility.<br /><br />I do agree, though, that Gregory VII saw te correlation between universal jurisdiction and infallibility. His idea of inflibillity appears more expansive than that set forth in Vatican I, though. <br /><br />My only point was that Vatican I was an attempt to specifically define the outer bounds of infallibility: the criteria to be invoked upon its usage being set out by a Council is a limitation and not an expanse. <br /><br />Moreover, in setting those limitations, the fathers of the First Vatican Council were clearly aware of the heretical popes in history, particularly the case of Honorius. So they were careful to place the limits on infallibility in such a way as to legislate Honorius's heretical views outside the sphere of infallible pronouncements. <br /><br />I find this subject very interesting and quite important currently for a proper understanding of the current situation in the church. Marcnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-28447604844338557062013-01-14T10:55:04.693-05:002013-01-14T10:55:04.693-05:00As to "why" infallibility was defined as...As to "why" infallibility was defined as it was and when it was, H. Pottmeyer offers the following reasons:<br />1. The schism b/w the church of the East and the Church of the West. The East had understood the Church to be a community of local churches in which the bishop of Rome enjoyed special standing but not jurisdictional precedence.<br />2. The "lay investiture" controversy, whuch saw the church struggling for the independence of the Church and its bishops from the princes.<br />3. Canonists were increasingly adopting Roman law which had a strong, central law-giver. At this time in the Church it was canonists who were defining the understanding of the Church.<br />4. Aristotle's theories on law had been rediscovered. These influenced the canonists to replace the communal understanding of the Church with a corporative understanding.<br /><br />Innocent IV (1243-1254) adopted a principle of the late Roman law, that the ruler is above the law. "Innocent thus reached the conception of a monarchical primacy of jurisdiction which the papacy and the ultramontane theologians could take up in the 19th century."<br /><br />"Toward a Papacy in Communion" Hermann Pottmeyer, pages 28-33.Pater Ignotusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-60465197788189107042013-01-13T12:02:53.679-05:002013-01-13T12:02:53.679-05:00At least we're closer to union with the Orthod...At least we're closer to union with the Orthodox than the Anglicans now... LOL. Anglicanism is a joke.ytcnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-36633828641463495072013-01-13T11:45:46.482-05:002013-01-13T11:45:46.482-05:00My uber-liberal Protestant brother declared, just ...My uber-liberal Protestant brother declared, just after Christmas, that he can no longer allow me to "influence his family." Thus his interpretation of 1 John 4:20 is quite foreign to me, as he purports to love God. <br /><br />So much for ecumenism.Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00858195676825602917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-59059110487518504252013-01-13T08:11:47.218-05:002013-01-13T08:11:47.218-05:00As I understand it, the definition of infallibilit...As I understand it, the definition of infallibility at Vatican I was actually intended to limit the power of the pope by placing specific rules around the use of infallibility. <br /><br />I agree the Orthodox will never accept it. They see it as a heresy and a blasphemy. Strong words there. Plus they remember those popes that were heretics. So they find it difficult to reconcile the history with the dogma. Marcnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-64917114982112849122013-01-12T22:30:58.623-05:002013-01-12T22:30:58.623-05:00I predict that papal infallibility will be the doo...I predict that papal infallibility will be the doom of any unification. Historically speaking, why was the doctrine necessary? What precipitated it? Was there some dire controversy that required its definition? qwiknesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15439450727837308035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-79600465565221021862013-01-12T17:22:58.552-05:002013-01-12T17:22:58.552-05:00Anon5
"One really shouldn't verb nouns&q...Anon5<br /><br />"One really shouldn't verb nouns". LOL!John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-41831755267464981972013-01-12T10:23:25.643-05:002013-01-12T10:23:25.643-05:00A5, I know some Orthodox. They don't seem to p...A5, I know some Orthodox. They don't seem to pay much attention to the Catholic Church. Many, I would guess, think the liturgy is still in Latin! I would think those that are aware of the changes see them as Rome being Rome - innovating away from Truth. <br /><br />But, my experience is limited to some pretty hardliner Orthodox. I guess lost of them don't really pay any attention to what Catholics are doing. Just like you and I aren't up on the latest worship styles of the various Protestant groups. Marcnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-13086489363163617882013-01-12T10:03:37.706-05:002013-01-12T10:03:37.706-05:00There are some liberal protestants who still want ...There are some liberal protestants who still want ecumenism. All that's required is for the Catholic Church to abandon all of the doctrines that liberal Protestantism finds objectionable.<br /><br />The problem with ecumenism is the same one I addressed with A2 re same-sex marriages the other day. Since the Church is unable to change her doctrines, any dialogue aimed at getting her to do so--or even to consider the notion--is pointless. The Church should not "dialogue" with positions that are wrong, (one really shouldn't verb nouns), but rather proclaim the truth in charity and let individuals decide whether or not to accept and adhere to it. Thus, any understanding of ecumenism that has doctrinal change as an objective is also fundamentally wrong. This is something that many Catholics--some bishops among them--don't get.<br /><br />As for the Orthodox: do we have any information on the impact that the drastic post-VII liturgical changes may have had on their own ideas regarding reunion with Rome? It cannot have been good.Hammer of Fascistshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08647227447212096501noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-47260770327723029692013-01-12T09:52:37.761-05:002013-01-12T09:52:37.761-05:00Patriarch Kirill of Russia in ecumenism:
"Th...Patriarch Kirill of Russia in ecumenism:<br /><br />"The Roman Catholic Church's position on many issues of social life is closer to the Orthodox point of view [than that of the Protestants]. Anyway, we bear in mind a whole range of differences in the belief-preaching and practice of the Orthodox and Catholic Churches. No compromises can be made in this area."<br /><br />The basis of Orthodox ecumenism is quite similar to what the Catholic Church used to believe: everyone needs to convert to Orthodoxy. This includes Catholic, who are in schism from the True Church from the Orthodox perspective. <br /><br />The movement these days is to have a unity in social movement in the secular world on common issues, mostly hot-button social issues. That will probably be the extent of the discussion for quite some time. <br /><br />The Orthodox are organizing a worldwide "Great and Holy Council" to be held perhaps this or next year that might address the issue of ecumenism with the Catholic Church. But, with Russia being the largest patriarchate these days and their anti-ecumenical stance, I don't think it will be too friendly toward perceived Catholic innovations in the faith. The other patriarchates are likely to agree, as are the clergy and laity. Marcnoreply@blogger.com