tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post8987234870346642993..comments2024-03-28T20:30:10.681-04:00Comments on southern orders: A NEW AND IMPROVED SUICIDE FUNERAL HOMILYFr. Allan J. McDonaldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-89223586332439079972018-12-24T18:08:52.534-05:002018-12-24T18:08:52.534-05:00TJM
The Dies Irae is the most famous chant ever w...TJM<br /><br />The Dies Irae is the most famous chant ever written, but is a comparatively late addition to the Requiem Mass; it was not composed until the 13th century. In fact all the Sequences are late additions (late being comparative - the main corpus of Gregorian chant was complete by the end of the first millennium).<br /><br />There is no reason why the Dies Irae should not be sung for the Novus Ordo, and it not uncommonly is (for example at All Souls); this is because the rite itself allows a plethora of options, both traditional and modern. John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-15598536815125179382018-12-24T10:25:09.595-05:002018-12-24T10:25:09.595-05:00John Nolan,
Thanks for the information. So the Di...John Nolan,<br /><br />Thanks for the information. So the Dies Irae is suppressed for the Novus Ordo, or is that too broad an assumption? That particular chant is hauntingly beautiful and one of my favorites. TJMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-17707229964140857142018-12-23T20:02:22.888-05:002018-12-23T20:02:22.888-05:00TJM
The 1974 Graduale Romanum, which governs the ...TJM<br /><br />The 1974 Graduale Romanum, which governs the Novus Ordo, has a very wide choice of chants for the Missa pro Defunctis, although these do not include the Sequence and the responsory 'Libera me Domine de morte aeterna' which is replaced by a different chant taken from Matins: 'Libera me Domine de viis inferni'. I did once sing the Mass chants from the Liber Usualis at a Novus Ordo Requiem Mass which was otherwise in English. <br /><br />A priest can hardly object to this, although if he were very punctilious he might insist on the Alleluia rather than the Tract outside of Lent!<br /><br />But generally speaking we sing for the Old Rite. On occasion we have been asked to wear choir dress and sing in the sanctuary, which is quite fitting for a male chant schola, but certainly not for a mixed 'music group'!<br /><br /> John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-6650576550273712962018-12-23T19:48:14.300-05:002018-12-23T19:48:14.300-05:00 Bee,
Hell is empty other than Hitler and fake c... Bee,<br /><br />Hell is empty other than Hitler and fake catholics like PelosiTJMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-77849345100391368442018-12-23T17:37:35.352-05:002018-12-23T17:37:35.352-05:00Bee here:
Sorry for the omission in my last comme...Bee here:<br /><br />Sorry for the omission in my last comment. Rather than "What is my guess? These modernists would say they are not guilty, he..."<br /><br />The sentence was supposed to read:<br /><br />"What is my guess? These modernists would say they are not guilty of mortal sin, and hell is probably empty."<br /><br />God bless.<br />BeeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-68468724813090980952018-12-23T17:31:33.190-05:002018-12-23T17:31:33.190-05:00Bee here:
It seems to me prior to Vatican II the ...Bee here:<br /><br />It seems to me prior to Vatican II the problem of suicide was considered a spiritual problem, not a mental or physical one. Before Vat II suicide was viewed as a failure of Faith, Hope and Charity; now it's viewed simply as a physical problem, a psychological problem. It is a clear example of the denial of the supernatural within Church. I think the modernists/rationalists within the Church scoffed at the supernatural in general, and have now made things that are supernaturally evil just superstitions, much to the peril of those who believe them.<br /><br />This is a significant shift that explains the problem in a blameless sort of way, a natural rather than a spiritual problem, and presumes the person is helpless to battle the temptation. And we assume they actually had a mental illness, instead of perhaps only a small percentage "knows not what they do." If it was a spiritual problem I can only say the person is expected to battle such temptations against life, and if they don't, then Satan has destroyed them.<br /><br />So then, why are we held accountable for giving in to ANY strong temptation? Why be guilty of the mortal sin of adultery if you believe you married the wrong person but have now met your "soul mate"? How about when a poor person who robs a bank because they will become homeless next month if they don't, and their kids will have to go into foster care? What is my guess? These modernists would say they are not, he<br /><br />This wrong teaching about suicide is a subtle lie, and replaces the Word of God with mere human precepts. We should tell people to try to find out if their temptation to suicide is spiritual or due to illness so they may realize they may be able to fight for their own lives and avoid hell.<br /><br />I think it might be very beneficial to people in the pews to know their depression may be a spiritual problem and it's important to outright and strongly denounce the mental suggestions to kill oneself so to overcome Satan and allow God to triumph. When priests do not clearly give a spiritual remedy they fail as guardians of souls.<br /><br />God bless,<br />Bee<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-19285018928632138532018-12-23T10:37:23.402-05:002018-12-23T10:37:23.402-05:00John Nolan,
What a marvelous service you are perf...John Nolan,<br /><br />What a marvelous service you are performing. One question: are you singing the chants of the Requiem exclusively for the EF or are you also singing them for the OF? Not too many years ago, I attended a funeral Mass for a family friend, and although the Mass was the OF, all of the chants from the Requiem were sung in Latin from the Missa Pro Defunctis. The parish priest, although not a supporter of the EF, generously did not allow his preferences to over-ride the express wishes of the family of the deceased. TJMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-10616871919817361862018-12-23T10:25:53.979-05:002018-12-23T10:25:53.979-05:00The 1917 Canon denying Christian burial to suicide...The 1917 Canon denying Christian burial to suicides was often interpreted leniently. In November 1920, during the height of the Irish 'troubles', the Sinn Fein Lord Mayor of Cork, Terence McSwiney, died in Brixton prison (London) after a hunger strike. This was positive and direct suicide. <br /><br />His funeral, in St George's Catholic Cathedral, Southwark, was done with great ceremony and his body was then taken to Ireland to be interred with all ecclesiastical honours. You can see a newsreel excerpt on Youtube.<br /><br />This may be a partial answer to Fr Allan's query about whether suicides were allowed burial from the Church before Vatican II. John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-64155968951031871832018-12-22T18:52:12.758-05:002018-12-22T18:52:12.758-05:00Anonymous is correct as far as the OCF is concerne...Anonymous is correct as far as the OCF is concerned, but it is the OCF which is the problem here. Under cover of liturgical reform, the theology regarding the rites for the dead was changed, and the new rites reflect this. It is probably the single most serious disruption since the Council. The resulting disjunct between the lex orandi and lex credendi has given rise to numerous abuses.<br /><br />Last week I attended a modern Catholic funeral. There were no obvious abuses; the priest (in violet vestments) read the English Mass in a clear and dignified manner; there were the usual four hymns, a couple of solos from a quite decent soprano, some nice organ music; the homily was perhaps too eulogistic but otherwise unremarkable; the actual eulogy was delivered by a grandson, for which he was given a round of applause.<br /><br />Afterwards everyone agreed that it had been 'a nice send-off'. No doubt it was what she wanted and expected. But should 'a nice send-off' be the criterion for a Catholic funeral?<br /><br />In the past few years I have been asked to sing at funerals of people I didn't know, because they had asked for the Old Rite and it is a question of 'have Liber, will travel'. It is an entirely different experience, and I would suggest a more authentically Catholic one. John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-68031529912438439162018-12-22T15:52:15.508-05:002018-12-22T15:52:15.508-05:00Anonymous @ 3:24, yes, that is why I used the word...Anonymous @ 3:24, yes, that is why I used the word 'directly'. I thought about using 'solely'. I left that sentence in to stoke this point because I think people suffer from the conceit that a Mass, even the Requiem, is about them, their family, or the deceased. It is my understanding that it is about all of us and is a reminder that we all face the same judgement. rcghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00661998350597126663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-66465648823776290732018-12-22T15:24:35.307-05:002018-12-22T15:24:35.307-05:00"After all, the Requiem Mass is not really ab..."After all, the Requiem Mass is not really about the person in the casket, nor is it to provide solace directly to the family of the deceased.<br /><br />Yes, along with praying for the deceased, a primary end of the funeral mass is to provide solace directly to the family of the deceased.<br /><br />From the introduction to "The Order of Christian Funerals, 1969":<br /><br />"The Church, therefore, offers the eucharistic sacrifice of Christ's Passion for the dead and pours forth prayers and petitions for them. Because of the communion of all Christ's members with each other, all of this brings spiritual aid to the dead and the consolation of hope to the living."<br /><br />From the Rite - the blessing at the end of the Vigil:<br /><br />"May the love of God and the peace of the Lord Jesus Christ<br />bless and console us<br />and gently wipe every tear from our eyes:<br />in the name of the Father,<br />and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen."<br /><br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-51088869803442930452018-12-22T14:21:42.799-05:002018-12-22T14:21:42.799-05:00I will embarrass myself once again by stating a co...I will embarrass myself once again by stating a couple of points that may be both obvious and entirely wrong. First, the suicide of a mentally ill person is not the same as the suicide of a disgraced or vanquished person as happened a previous century. There was a time when it was a form of logic for a person to kill themselves subsequent to a failure of some sort. But the dark, unfathomable despair of a sick mind does not allow the same paths of reason searching for salvation. So the same eulogy for the wife of Brutus would be inappropriate for the deceased victim of clinical depression. This is, in my opinion, the best reason to not give a homily at all. After all, the Requiem Mass is not really about the person in the casket, nor is it to provide solace directly to the family of the deceased. This leads to my second point. The homily most certainly is not to provide a platform for the priest to show off his deductive reasoning or forensic abilities. I am under the impression that it is an expression of humility and plea for mercy. It is the last contributions of reason to our earthly journey and a final handover to Faith. It is the confession that we simply don’t know how we will be judged but give hope to a merciful outcome. <br /><br />We are recently reminded that we should not presume any specific judgement on the deceased. The Mass could have been for a cardinal dying a natural death at an advanced age and heretofore a safe bet for entry into Heaven. This is also a good reason for ad orientem, as an act of humility. rcghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00661998350597126663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-64878717851638848032018-12-22T13:31:38.426-05:002018-12-22T13:31:38.426-05:00John Nolan,
You make an excellent point on suicid...John Nolan,<br /><br />You make an excellent point on suicide: one freely elected and another the result of a serious mental disorder. I cannot imagine why one would elect suicide because modern medicine in the overwhelming number of cases can mitigate pain and suffering. TJMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-8104017592344008992018-12-22T11:54:45.529-05:002018-12-22T11:54:45.529-05:00Who may be given a Christian burial is a matter fo...Who may be given a Christian burial is a matter for Canon Law. The 1983 Code, unlike that of 1917, does not specifically mention suicides (or, for that matter, those who are killed in a duel). This does not imply that the Church approves of either practice. But giving a suicide the benefit of the doubt as to his mental state when he perpetrated the act, and the possibility of repentance 'inter pontem et fontem', does not necessarily cause a scandal to the faithful. However, with suicides, particularly among the young, on the increase in post-Christian society, the Church needs to reiterate her teaching on the objective gravity of the sin. <br /><br />Some legislations have legitimized 'assisted suicide' or voluntary euthanasia. It is a precondition that the one killed is of sound mind, so were the Church to allow Christian burial in this case it would indeed be scandalous and is unlikely to be allowed. By denying Christian burial to a public and manifest sinner, the Church is not pre-empting God's mercy; her aim, as already stated, is to ensure that no scandal is caused to the faithful.<br /><br />This has nothing to do with the liturgy used. I am of the opinion that the Order of Christian Funerals, which encapsulates the post-V2 'reform' is thoroughly unsatisfactory. If its recommendations for music are followed, it would be impossible to have anything resembling a Requiem Mass using the Novus Ordo. <br /><br />John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-158683993212647792018-12-22T10:46:45.064-05:002018-12-22T10:46:45.064-05:00Absolutely beautiful and profound. Perhaps the fac...Absolutely beautiful and profound. Perhaps the fact that the priest knew the family well and the situation helped him focus on what needed to be said. If a homily is to be given in a suicide situation, this homily is a model of Christian charity TJMnoreply@blogger.com