tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post8803411775898563754..comments2024-03-28T11:36:20.629-04:00Comments on southern orders: A RENDERING OF HOW THE ALTAR RAILING WILL BE REINSTALLED AT SAINT JOSEPH CHURCH, MACON, GEORGIAFr. Allan J. McDonaldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comBlogger31125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-90380038629994553422013-01-06T20:23:46.003-05:002013-01-06T20:23:46.003-05:00Thanks for your response, Marc. I don’t see that y...Thanks for your response, Marc. I don’t see that you need to bow out of posting on such subjects. I certainly intended no chilling effect from my observations, just to correct a possible misapprehension on the part of some readers.<br /><br /><br />Anonymous 2noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-6951213731579493092013-01-06T11:20:02.984-05:002013-01-06T11:20:02.984-05:00The further answer to your question is that we car...The further answer to your question is that we care because there is a qualitative difference between the ordained priesthood and the laity. This is not a pre-Vatican II vs. post-Vatican II thing.<br /><br />Although, you throw around this "pre-Vatican II people" thing so much (particularly toward me) that it is really difficult to buy into your actually believing there was no rupture. Indeed, you are the one citing rupture, I am citing continuity.<br /><br />If it was wrong then, it is wrong now. If it was holy then, it is holy now. Continuity.<br /><br />It was wrong then, but is allowable now. It was holy then, but is more available now. Rupture.<br /><br />See?Marchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13510317669833026685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-85519659685289309222013-01-06T11:17:36.758-05:002013-01-06T11:17:36.758-05:00You, as a catechist, should be concerned that they...You, as a catechist, should be concerned that they do not understand the reason for what they are doing.<br /><br />There are many in your congregation who say the words of consecration in the pews along with you... should be avoid correcting that errant understanding as well?Marchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13510317669833026685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-72765896674955963792013-01-06T11:15:56.798-05:002013-01-06T11:15:56.798-05:00There are some traditionalists who lament that the...There are some traditionalists who lament that the post Vatican II Mass pays to much attention to the laity's participation and what they are doing, so, in a sense, the priest of course should not ask anyone to hold hands, but if family groups do so, why should anyone be concerned, the same with the orans position at the Lord's Prayer.Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-88396310410176511022013-01-06T11:13:01.279-05:002013-01-06T11:13:01.279-05:00By the way, my previous comment was speaking merel...By the way, my previous comment was speaking merely objectively. I am not attempting to discuss anyone's subjective decision making -- I am hopeful that every priest, especially pastors, makes decisions out of a place of purity and hope that they are doing the best thing for their flock.<br /><br />It is very easy to judge the effect of those decision in hindsight. That, in my view, does not make a particular bad decision correct, but excuses the bad decision based on its result. Marchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13510317669833026685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-81116362949487049202013-01-06T11:06:21.301-05:002013-01-06T11:06:21.301-05:00Anonymous 2,
I appreciate your critique for what ...Anonymous 2,<br /><br />I appreciate your critique for what it is and take no offense. Having personally known the nature of the priest about whom we speak, I agree with your assessment of him personally. <br /><br />Having come into St. Joseph at a time when the Tabernacle was left forgotten at a side altar and a cantor led the congregational singing from the ambo during Mass, I have to persist in use of the word "havoc" to describe the situation. Although, you are partially correct I meant "liturgical havoc."<br /><br />You see, for me, there is no divide between liturgy and doctrine/dogma/faith -- just as the Church teaches. So, to create liturgical havoc is to create doctrinal havoc and negatively impact the faith of the parishioners.<br /><br />Please refer to the continued remnants of this havoc at Mass this Sunday when you see people holding hands during the Our Father, all the laity walking around the Sanctuary before and after Mass, and any number of things that seem minor but actually demonstrate meaningfully the state of the spiritual lives of the parishioners.<br /><br />I will bow out of posting on these subjects now to avoid touching a nerve.Marchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13510317669833026685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-59085301522223524552013-01-06T07:02:26.926-05:002013-01-06T07:02:26.926-05:00I should add that the altar railing is needed for ...I should add that the altar railing is needed for the Extraordinary Form of the Mass that is celebrated here regularly. The Ordinary Form of the Mass will have distribution of Holy Communion as it is normally done already, at stations, where the communicant is instructed that in the ordinary form of the Mass, the norm in the USA is to stand to receive Holy Communion, kneeling is the exception, both are allowed and the choice is the communicants. The same is true of Holy Communion on the tongue or in the throned hand--both options are equal and the choice is the communicants, not the ordinary or extraordinary minister's. The Extraordinary Form of the Mass does not allowed for EMHC's nor for Holy Communion in the hand the the norm is to kneel unless there is a physical reason for the exception of standing. Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-81322486144100840782013-01-06T06:57:27.084-05:002013-01-06T06:57:27.084-05:00In terms of what transpired here prior to my arriv...In terms of what transpired here prior to my arrival in 2004, there wasn't anything out of the ordinary in that regard. What I had to do was simply implement and at the request of our bishop I might add, the new General Instruction of the Roman missal which had been issued in 2002. This meant re-orienting some things liturgical, but not a great deal at all. The biggest challenge was placing a major capital campaign and fund raising on a better footing and prioritizing the work according to what the bishop at the time had requested, which was the Church first and the first and second phases of the school's renovation. The gym and additional classrooms would be last and when funding became available. One must keep in mind that the previous pastor here was nearly murdered by having his throat sliced and his money taken at a motel in Atlanta and that this caused him to have to take care of health concerns and at the age of 75 when it happened was very difficult for him to recover quickly. All this took place while a major capital campaign and building project was going on and liturgical updates were being issued. With that said, a very active laity took leadership roles that made possible the completion of the first phase of things and the paying off of a million dollar debt in six years. So when we began our new campaign we were debt free. I believe we will be debt free in a similar period of time when construction is completed in late 2013 or early 2014, so add six years to that by 2020 we'll be debt free and in a new campaign to build a office building and update the Church's campus. Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-50466614094648219192013-01-06T05:47:30.871-05:002013-01-06T05:47:30.871-05:00If anything was over the top, I apologize, but of ...If anything was over the top, I apologize, but of course the truth must be served and when the truth isn't served, that should be pointed out. In terms of EMHC's there will always be a need at St. Joseph unless there are enough clergy to assist. With intinction we need four stations and with the chalice at our 9:30 AM Mass, we need ten stations. <br />The liturgical law is that if there are enough priests and deacons, we do not need the use of extraordinary ministers, as the name "extraordinary" implies. That seems clear to me.Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-39652163577211352132013-01-06T03:12:31.901-05:002013-01-06T03:12:31.901-05:00Marc:
What I am about to say is not intended as c...Marc:<br /><br />What I am about to say is not intended as criticism of you at all, although it will critique something you said. I am doing this because, just as you felt the need to come to the defense of Father McDonald, I feel the need to come to the defense of another priest.<br /><br />I do understand what you mean when you say that “We are in flux because prior priests caused havoc at the parish. You should blame them for making changes inconsistent with the Catholic religion. Father McDonald, for his part, is doing what he sees necessary to fix those mistakes.” I do understand that Father McDonald and others, especially various St. Joseph’s parishioners who follow this Blog, consider that prior priests made mistakes. That’s all well and good, and the changes we are experiencing at St. Joseph’s are part of the “working out” and the “working through” of this perception. And I really don’t want to challenge that here (although I have asked questions about certain aspects of it in other threads, and I do believe that asking questions that explore limits and ramifications is appropriate).<br /><br />I would respectfully suggest, however, that your use of the phrase “caused havoc at the parish” must be seen in context and must be heavily qualified. I assume you mean liturgical havoc; and you can only be referring, or must be mainly referring, to Monsignor Cuddy who was pastor at St. Josephs for over thirty years. Now one can disagree with what Monsignor did, one can say he made mistakes, one can perhaps even suggest that he caused liturgical “havoc” if that is one’s rhetorical inclination. But – and, again, I am not intending to criticize you here because, like many relatively recent newcomers to St. Joseph’s, I don’t think you ever really knew Monsignor Cuddy in the way that those of us who have been members of the parish for much longer have come to know him – I think it is important also to emphasize that Monsignor was, and still is, a much beloved priest who has done wonderful work for the Church and has been a true Godsend to so many of us over the years (I know he has been such to me). I would be very surprised if any priest in the diocese ever attracted more people to join the Church or tried as hard to help people understand and know God’s great love for us.<br /><br />Monsignor Cuddy and Father McDonald are very different personalities. They both have very fine qualities, and they both have some faults, as do you, as do I, as do we all. They both love the Church, they both love their parishioners, and they both have done what they think is best for the Church and for their parish. And I sincerely believe that God must be well pleased with both of His good and faithful servants. <br /><br />Again, Marc, this is not intended as criticism of you. I just want readers who might not know Monsignor Cuddy, but who might know of his prior tenure at St. Joseph’s, to think of him as more – much more – than as a priest who “caused havoc at the parish” (quite apart from the fact, of course, that many would likely disagree that he caused such “havoc” or made serious “mistakes” in the first place; but that’s a different point).<br /><br /><br /> <br />Anonymous 2noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-50286500585827492362013-01-05T22:46:08.794-05:002013-01-05T22:46:08.794-05:00Hey John Nolan, a woman-hater, I take it. Or maybe...Hey John Nolan, a woman-hater, I take it. Or maybe a woman is only good enough if she tends to your needs. The women of St. Joseph Parish do most of the grunt work in this parish. Cooking, cleaning, laundering, are all the menial tasks men take for granted. I see the installation of this railing as a sign that EEMHCs at St. Joseph will be eliminated because the priests will be the only distributors of Holy Communion after it is installed. The only purpose of EEMHCs was way back when the Churches were full on a weekly basis and this part of the Mass took forever. I plan on resigning as an EEMHC so I do not have to get a pink slip through my e-mail.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-22644056823339812062013-01-05T14:45:00.383-05:002013-01-05T14:45:00.383-05:00Yikes people! Calm down. I do not get the feelin...Yikes people! Calm down. I do not get the feeling that St. Joseph Anonymous is a wacko liberal or is being hateful or malicious or anything. I think that, probably from his/her perspective, the statement-critiques are legitimate. (Please consider that.) I don't think this person is a recurrent nuisance (?)<br /><br />Fr. M, good Lord! I think your response was a bit of an overkill.ytcnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-13229111512454034802013-01-05T13:07:16.778-05:002013-01-05T13:07:16.778-05:00Additional comments since I cross-posted with St. ...Additional comments since I cross-posted with St. Joseph Anonymous:<br /><br />I'm sure Fr. McDonald appreciates your second post and the changed tone. <br /><br />I hope you'll see that Father was being appropriately judgmental because you are patently incorrect in your previous assertions. He was also being forceful because of the nature of your wrongness.<br /><br />I would suggest again that Father might take you more seriously if you (1) avoid posting anonymously, and (2) use something as a barometer other than your own feelings about the situation.<br /><br />For my part, I have questioned Fr. McDonald on this blog for however long it has been in existence. I have also championed him when he made good decisions. I've done this both publicly and privately.<br /><br />In fact, I did both those things in this very thread (see above at comments 2 and 3 by me). I have always done so under my own name.<br /><br />I'm not saying that I have always been right in my criticism, but I have always attempted to back it up with reference to actual Church teachings (as I understand them) and history/tradition.<br /><br />On the other hand, you came in with a multi-part criticism backed up by nothing at all. So, who was being judgmental and defensive in this discussion? I think Father acquitted himself appropriately given the tone of your first post...Marchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13510317669833026685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-67225052671823494872013-01-05T12:57:22.059-05:002013-01-05T12:57:22.059-05:00To have a fruitful discussion I would recommend ev...To have a fruitful discussion I would recommend evaluating what has happened including the plans that clearly show what will take place properly.<br /><br />Then if there are legitmate questions ask them in a non-accusatory way. <br /><br />Don't denigrate those who give to this special project, which I might add has been approved by the pastoral council, the legitmate organ of the parish for these things to be discussed and finally approved by the bishop based upon consultation with the pastoral council and a finance package approved by the Finance Council, which has yet to take place as not everything is known about the cost of the extension of the floor's first step.<br /><br />Finally it is unhelpful to throw out statements that are patently false and misleading. Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-77308404542877936832013-01-05T12:57:07.673-05:002013-01-05T12:57:07.673-05:00Dear St. Joseph Anonymous:
While Fr. McDonald has...Dear St. Joseph Anonymous:<br /><br />While Fr. McDonald has already provided a more that adequate defense of his decision making, which as he points out is his province, I provide my own reproach of your "critiques":<br /><br />1. We <i>are</i> never quite good enough. Fixing that is the whole purpose of the spiritual life. If any priest has ever told you that you are good enough just as you are, he lied to you. Repentance is the purpose of our lives.<br /><br />2. We are in flux because prior priests caused havoc at the parish. You should blame them for making changes inconsistent with the Catholic religion. Fr. McDonald, for his part, is doing what he sees necessary to fix those mistakes.<br /><br />3. This is just ridiculous.<br /><br />4. No one should be entering the Sanctuary from the nave except priests and servers during the Procession. Priests and altar servers enter from the sacristy. Moreover, they are ambulatory. You, presumably a layperson, have no business entering the Sanctuary so it makes no difference whether it is accessible to you or not. <br /><br />5. Look at the renderings to correct your misunderstanding.<br /><br />6. Thank God and Fr. McDonald that you attend a parish that is so well-funded. My guess is the priests at the other local parishes would love to be able to do projects that were as well funded as St. Joseph.<br /><br />Finally, try getting up the courage to post your actual name instead of relying on the anonymity of the internet. No one will take your complaints seriously when you make them anonymously. Marcnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-52116054108055245262013-01-05T12:47:07.094-05:002013-01-05T12:47:07.094-05:00St. Joseph Anonymous here.
Father - we love you, ...St. Joseph Anonymous here.<br /><br />Father - we love you, the Church, and St. Joseph's. <br />If one disagrees with what you say you get judgmental - how can we have a discussion like that? How can we get you to hear criticism without being defensive? How does this attract people to want to be Catholic? <br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-44003683564620475502013-01-05T12:22:16.278-05:002013-01-05T12:22:16.278-05:00St. Joseph Anonymous, perhaps I misread you, but y...St. Joseph Anonymous, perhaps I misread you, but you strike me as an angry person, or at least you dislike me, and that you have some authority issues and don't completely comprehend the nature of the Church and its governance especially as canon law (in light of Vatican II) makes clear. Thus this leads you to spew forth false information or half truths and thus betrays a need for conversion or at least confession. So let me correct your horribly incorrect conclusions: <br /><br />1. This is an outright lie and your perception only--get over it, it is unhealthy for you!<br /><br />2. Change is a part of life, health changes, people die, church changes, especially upkeep and renovations--most people handle this with great dignity and appreciate that the Church and parish are living organisms not dead and inanimate. <br /><br />3. We can get by with less pews, yes, this is true especially has I added an additional Mass (Saturday Vigil) in 2005.<br /><br />4. Outright lie again, betrays your issues which you alone must address with the help of trusted friends. It will actually be easier for people depart the sanctuary, especially when leaving by the side chapels.<br /><br />5. Complete lie and shows you didn't really look at the drawings right side! Really! The place for wheel chairs will be exactly as they are now, which I might add, I insisted upon when the Church was restored in 2004--the spaces for the wheel chairs were by my decree and these remain. Please don't lie and if intentional on your part a mortal sin.<br /><br />6. At total of 9 people have already contributed almost $43,000 and one gave $30,000 in cash. Please do not denigrate the generosity of our parishioners! Catholic Stewardship is about conversion and discipleship. No one is forced to give and the track record of this generous parish should be obvious to all and I hope to you!<br /><br />Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-58342751388662055832013-01-05T12:07:40.538-05:002013-01-05T12:07:40.538-05:00St. Joseph Anonymous here.
Dear Father:
1. We get ...St. Joseph Anonymous here.<br />Dear Father:<br />1. We get the message that we are never quite good enough.<br />2. We get the message that you just can't leave things alone for a period of time and we must always be in flux.<br />3. We get the message that we need less pews.<br />4. We get the message that persons with not so great ambulatory skills shouldn't bother because the hand rails will be gone.<br />5. We get the message that persons in wheelchairs won't have space up front anymore. (how are they being accommodated?)<br />6. We get the message that new funds have to be raised on new projects while current ones aren't complete. <br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-1240622799736204152013-01-04T22:56:19.157-05:002013-01-04T22:56:19.157-05:00Father,
Wouldn't this be the first alta...Father,<br /> Wouldn't this be the first altar rail to be installed in a church in the Diocese of Savannah since the Second Vatican Council? If so, that's a pretty big deal for the Reform of the Reform movement in our diocese. <br /><br /> For those in our diocese who don't know what is going on at St. Joseph in Macon doesn't this merit a story in the "Southern Cross" perhaps with a catechetical explanation as to why this is being done? <br /><br /> I will tell anyone in my parish who will listen about your blog but I wonder how many (from my parish) actually remember to pull it up and look at it. I'm sure many of them regularly at least skim and maybe read certain parts of the "Southern Cross." An article about this would be a great idea!Joseph Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00036852763902493131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-81474161763427124492013-01-04T20:18:09.918-05:002013-01-04T20:18:09.918-05:00Just google King Richard's Atlanta and you sho...Just google King Richard's Atlanta and you should find its web siteFr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-43536469088215402312013-01-04T19:18:05.825-05:002013-01-04T19:18:05.825-05:00Father, you are quite right to highlight our Judai...Father, you are quite right to highlight our Judaic heritage. The Church's liturgy is focused on singing the psalms (all of them every week, if you do it properly). It is difficult to prove, but the Chant of the Church may well have had its origins in the Temple chant (in Our Lord's day they did not sing in the synagogue) and those who are fortunate enough to hear the Gospel tone in Holy Week are struck by its resemblance to Jewish cantillation.<br /><br />St Thomas reminds us that at the Last Supper:<br />In supremae nocte cenae, recumbens cum fratribus, observata lege plene, cibis in legalibus, cibum turbae duodenae, se dat suis manibus.<br /><br />And that's where we part company with our Jewish brethren : Et antiquum documentum novo cedat ritui.John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-77249152944169710432013-01-04T18:45:01.866-05:002013-01-04T18:45:01.866-05:00What Church did this Altar Rail come from? Can peo...What Church did this Altar Rail come from? Can people ( For Home Chapels, For example) purchase other things from this church and who do they contact?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-3845727626374994822013-01-04T18:04:48.411-05:002013-01-04T18:04:48.411-05:00I have noticed that churches that have retained th...I have noticed that churches that have retained their rails now have most people receiving on the tongue.<br /><br />EMHC - what is the point of them? You have two deacons and a curate, for God's sake! Since they cannot hear confessions their role in ministering to those who cannot attend in person is cicumscribed. It was never intended that they should form a separate lay female ministry.<br /><br />A New Year's resolution for you. Get women and girls out of the sanctuary. They have NO BUSINESS WHATSOEVER substituting for clerics and dressing as such. You know it makes sense.John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-16007779850876449212013-01-04T15:50:48.980-05:002013-01-04T15:50:48.980-05:00Wonderful post. Wonderful post. James I. McAuleynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-71934185035896136722013-01-04T09:01:26.587-05:002013-01-04T09:01:26.587-05:00And where did Vatican II address a change in the p...And where did Vatican II address a change in the purpose of the altar rail?<br /><br />:-)<br /><br />I'm just asking questions, Father. Want trying to start an argument about Vatican II. I apologize if it came off that way. Marcnoreply@blogger.com