tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post8625254067384651607..comments2024-03-28T11:36:20.629-04:00Comments on southern orders: FACING THE LITURGICAL EAST DURING MASS AND OTHER FORMS OF LITURGICAL PRAYER; IT'S NOT JUST FOR MUSLIMS ANYMORE! BE NOT AFRAID!Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-9897645200882122762013-01-30T09:25:43.032-05:002013-01-30T09:25:43.032-05:00That is easily remedied, John....it can be built o...That is easily remedied, John....it can be built or the altar, even if epoxied to the floor can be moved to accomodate.<br /><br />Just sayin'.<br /><br />If they could adapt and overcome in the 1960s; we can adapt and overcome in the 2010s.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03009356356243871772noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-34122554578178488372013-01-29T17:12:45.486-05:002013-01-29T17:12:45.486-05:00Andy, he can only do this if there is a footpace t...Andy, he can only do this if there is a footpace to stand on.John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-6079488014136763772013-01-29T09:40:04.574-05:002013-01-29T09:40:04.574-05:00"So the Benedictine arrangement is really the..."So the Benedictine arrangement is really the only option."<br /><br />Unless of course, the priest just turns to face the altar with the faithful. That is another option, no?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03009356356243871772noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-76805419952935499582013-01-29T07:54:46.290-05:002013-01-29T07:54:46.290-05:00Versus populum is vital because it creates the dyn...Versus populum is vital because it creates the dynamic which allows so many other things to flourish. Look at a still photograph of an ad orientem celebration. Is it OF or EF? Latin or vernacular? It's sometimes hard to tell. On the London Oratory website there are some photos of a Pontifical Solemn Mass celebrated a couple of Sundays ago by a visiting Australian bishop. The bishop is wearing liturgical gloves. There is a faldstool. In addition to deacon and subdeacon there is an AP in cope. There is even a bugia-bearer. Yet this is an OF Mass.<br /><br />A photograph from another church might show a dozen clergy, wearing robes which make them look like druids, standing on three sides of a table (altar?) covered with so many silver cups it reminds one of a school prize-giving. It's clearly different. One can reasonably infer that a) it won't be in Latin and b) the music will be of the Haagen/Haas/Inwood school.<br /><br />Some very recent re-orderings have been deliberately designed to make ad orientem celebration impossible. So the Benedictine arrangement is really the only option. John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-4080007868933937412013-01-28T22:09:38.134-05:002013-01-28T22:09:38.134-05:00Using the Benedictine Arrangement is a good second...Using the Benedictine Arrangement is a good second but it seems to make more sense to use the tallest candlesticks and crucifix available. I think for those who complain they can not "see" only have to look past the staff of those things and not the whole object itself which seems to block more view.Gregorian Massnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-50324979173852333222013-01-28T10:16:36.135-05:002013-01-28T10:16:36.135-05:00I would argue that this "temporary mesaure&qu...I would argue that this "temporary mesaure" of versus populum with the Benedictine arrangement is simply lipstick on a pig.<br /><br />Harsh? Probably, but true.<br /><br />How many times does the General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM) instruct the priest to turn around and face the congregation? I'll save you the suspense. FIVE.<br /><br />If we are to DO THE RED AND SAY THE BLACK, why are we not "doing the red?" At what point does "the red" cease to be legal and authoritative? At what poing does "the red" just become a suggestion or an ideal? And if "the red" isn't followed to the letter (where we find the spirit, btw), then how can we expect the priests to SAY THE BLACK?<br /><br />One of the reasons that I argue so vociferously about the ad orientem position is that if we are to be authentic in our worship, then we should be authentic in our worship. We should not be banal and on-the-spot about what we tolerate and what we don't.<br /><br />It is often said that "we can't approach reform with the same attitude of the 1960s!" I say, why not? The liberals hold the 1960s to be the dawning of a new age (Aquarius or not) and if that model of approach is so wonderful, why can't we now employ the same tactic?<br /><br />The faithful won't leave. It is proven to be the case that the fastest growing segment of the Church is the traditionalist movement. If one thinks that the faithful will be offended that the priest is facing the same direction starting in Advent 2013, then he is sorely misguided. The older faithful will carp about it, but won't do anything, because they are passive agressive, oh sure some will bolt, some will stop giving money, but by and large the young people will pick up the slack and the Church will continue on.<br /><br />If we are going to be serious about the "New Evangelization" and the "Reform of the Reform," this is a step. We must start by doing what the books ask of us, 100%. Not 70% or 80% or even 90%, 100%!<br /><br />This is not hard. Really, it isn't. What is hard, is that the more orthodox priests of today are afraid of their liberal peers and they are afraid that their money sources will dry up. It is that same old story, that man is afraid of the tattle-tale. The orthodox priest has the proper justification on his side...Fr. McD has shown some of it.<br /><br />The priests of today cannot be afraid of a little persecution. The vocation to the priesthood isn't a popularity contest, nor is it a matter of going with the status quo. Had that been the case, the priesthood would have died a long time ago.<br /><br />It is my prayer that priests stand up, DO THE RED and SAY THE BLACK; in both forms. Since, however, my prayers are unlikely to be answered in a timeframe which is conducive to my spirituality, I will continue to call for a return to the TLM exclusively, because for some unknown reason "the red and the black" are treated as law, which is where we find the spirit.<br /><br />Courage. That is what we need, courage.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03009356356243871772noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-6783532199286295962013-01-27T23:13:06.731-05:002013-01-27T23:13:06.731-05:00Henry Edwards, thank you for the information! The...Henry Edwards, thank you for the information! The only ordination I've ever attended was when I was a kid. It was an OF ordination, and I don't remember a whole lot.<br /><br />If the OF rite of ordination doesn't make clear what powers the priest receives from God, then all the more is the pity.WSquarednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-25412049458553429012013-01-27T09:02:25.151-05:002013-01-27T09:02:25.151-05:00Don't forget Uwe Michael Lang's book '...Don't forget Uwe Michael Lang's book 'Turning Towards the Lord' with its foreword by Cardinal Ratzinger.John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-21662347946823830342013-01-26T14:09:46.493-05:002013-01-26T14:09:46.493-05:00WSquared, in the EF rite of ordination, the priest...WSquared, in the EF rite of ordination, the priest is conferred with two distinct powers--to offer sacrifice in propitiation for the sins of men, and to forgive the sins of men.<br /><br />These two bestowals take place in distinct ceremonies within the TLM Mass of Ordination. The "Bestowal of the Power to Offer Holy Mass" occurs before Gospel. <br /><br /><b>"Receive the power to offer sacrifice to God and to celebrate Mass for the living and the dead."</b><br /><br />At this point the ordinand is a "priest simplex" who cannot yet give absolution. The "Bestowal of the Power to Forgive Sins" comes later in the Mass--after Holy Communion in the last TLM of ordination I attended.<br /><br /><b>"Receive the Holy Ghost; whose sins thou shalt forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins thou shalt retain, they are retained."</b><br /><br />So far as I recall from the last OF ordination I attended, these two powers seem not to be mentioned explicitly or separately in the OF rite of ordination.<br />Henry Edwardsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-70096593624430735082013-01-26T10:12:43.538-05:002013-01-26T10:12:43.538-05:00Thank you, Father, for posting this.
...didn'...Thank you, Father, for posting this.<br /><br />...didn't then-Cardinal Ratzinger also refer to the congregation closed in upon itself as the very description of sin, or was it somebody else who made that observation? <br /><br />As someone who attends both the EF and OF, I did notice that in the EF, the priest "disappears," so to speak. And this is as someone who grew up with Masses where the priest always faced the congregation. I recalled complaining about this, that, or the other priest's preaching as a kid, and my mom shushed me, telling me that the priest's personality didn't matter. I didn't know what she meant at the time, but I do now. ...and she was formed by the EF as a kid. :)<br /><br />At the EF, one is no longer made inordinately aware of Father So-and-So and his Sparkly (or not) Personality. It also occurred to me that the priest who usually celebrates the EF Mass I attend once a month isn't the greatest homilist in the world. But it then also occurred to me that it doesn't really matter. All that matters is that he's solid, and he doesn't shy away from giving us solid food while at the same time not conveying complete nonsensical crap, if not advocating dissent and heresy, from the pulpit. He may not be "dynamic" or whatever, but that's not what his priesthood-- and indeed the priesthood, period-- is all about. And thank God, actually.<br /><br />The priesthood is sacramental and pertains to personhood; it's not all about being a great preacher (...incidentally, this being a country in part formed by religious revivals during two Great Awakenings, I wonder if thinking that being a priest is all about great preaching is one of the reasons why some people think that women can be priests?).WSquarednoreply@blogger.com