tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post8144774779515219277..comments2024-03-28T16:23:19.433-04:00Comments on southern orders: DENIGRATING A PROPERLY CELEBRATED ORDINARY FORM MASS IS A SLIPPERY SLOPE WELL TO BE AVOIDEDFr. Allan J. McDonaldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comBlogger43125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-84335224439804285842014-03-22T10:33:10.904-04:002014-03-22T10:33:10.904-04:00Your comments in red at the end of your post, Fr. ...Your comments in red at the end of your post, Fr. McDonald, is precisely why I make use of the fact that the door swings both ways.<br /><br />Whenever I encounter someone who despises the EF and pits the OF against it in a way that suggests that Vatican II "called for" all sorts of nonsense at Mass that distracts from its spiritual reality, I gently, but curtly say: "please don't insult the Novus Ordo."<br /><br />It's bad enough that some traditionalists who lean more to the extreme end of things denigrate a valid form of the Mass. But many of whom "support" the Novus Ordo seem to think that its mere validity gives them a right to trash it completely. In effect, many traditionalists are ceding way too much ground, so I am very grateful that your blog exists, Father.<br /><br />I am grateful, though, that as unfortunate as the situation is, it nonetheless forces us to explore and clarify what the problems are, and to do so with precision. For example, it's true that High Anglican liturgy is more beautifully celebrated. But it's still not the Mass, that's not a priest, and that's not Jesus. The standard fare at many a suburban parish doesn't even compare. But that's actually Mass, that's actually a priest, and so that's actually Jesus. The issue is what the ontological end of beauty is, and why we should have it. It's not "Just Because." Just as "progress" without direction unto its ultimate end is meaningless, so is "tradition" that exists for its own sake.<br /><br />It is indeed true that even a sloppily celebrated Novus Ordo Mass, unfortunately the "norm" in many an American suburban parish, is valid-- that's still the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, and that's still Jesus, barring anything "improvisational" that would make its validity questionable. It's still a mortal sin to not attend Mass, and the fact that its aesthetics are "off" are but a poor excuse for not being there. After all, many people around the world have no Mass at all, and many people have risked their lives over the centuries to be able to attend Mass.<br /><br />But it is exactly because that IS Jesus, and that Catholicism is the religion of the Incarnation, and the fact that people <i>have</i> given their lives to attend Mass that nobody has any business trashing it by slotting all kinds of rubbish into it. There is a marked difference in liturgical style between Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI and Pope Francis. But it's still a heck of a stretch to even suggest that Pope Francis's simpler approach makes bad music at Mass and treating the liturgy casually and carelessly okay. <br /><br />The fact that people did risk their lives to celebrate and come to Mass should imbue us with some humility.WSquarednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-86780423010712606942014-02-26T07:18:07.491-05:002014-02-26T07:18:07.491-05:00PI, did Fr Vaggagini find Eucharistic Prayer III i...PI, did Fr Vaggagini find Eucharistic Prayer III inscribed on gold plates which had lain buried for two thousand years, like the Book of Mormon? Or was it dictated to him by the angel Gabriel in the manner of the Koran? No, he composed it, or if you like fabricated it (the primary meaning of 'to fabricate' according to Chambers is 'to put together by art and labour'). Drawing on the most recent scholarship, and using textual material that was simply not available at the time of the Council of Trent, he composed an anaphora which avoided the alleged defects of the Roman Canon (although most reputable scholars nowadays believe that these defects were exaggerated).<br /><br />His aim was not to subvert Tradition but to articulate it more clearly. Whether or not the Pauline Missal, either in itself or more particularly in the way it is used, succeeds in this aim, or if SC was interpreted in the way the Council Fathers intended, has been the subject of debate for nigh on half a century, and the debate is going to continue.<br /><br />John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-10317823787787952852014-02-25T10:21:00.422-05:002014-02-25T10:21:00.422-05:00Henry - No, I do not think the mass is static. In...Henry - No, I do not think the mass is static. In this very blog I have often discussed the evolution of the liturgy, the development of the liturgy, the changes in the liturgy. Even a cursory read of my posts makes it plain that I do not think the mass is static.<br /><br />I cite Justin to help those who have bought into the false understanding that the NO is something made up or invented or fabricated or etc to recognize that, somewhere along the way, they have been misled, either intentionally or mistakenly.<br /><br />The NO contains all the Traditional elements of the mass as it was known to the Church in the time of Justin. As such, it is not something fabricated or made up, but a true expression of the Tradition of the Church regarding the celebration of the Eucharist.Pater Ignotusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-43072697897968033762014-02-24T21:18:21.145-05:002014-02-24T21:18:21.145-05:00John - Yes, we have been down this road before, an...John - Yes, we have been down this road before, and the NO is not "fabricated."<br /><br />The NO contains all the elements of the mass as it was known to St Justin and the Church 1800 years before SC. <br /><br />It is as Traditional as any form of the Roman Rite that has ever been promulgated for use by the church.Pater Ignotusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-32063983888217587752014-02-24T19:29:36.873-05:002014-02-24T19:29:36.873-05:00PI: You seem to assume that the liturgy is a stati...PI: You seem to assume that the liturgy is a static rather than a living thing and that, in particular, its legitimate development under the influence of the Holy Spirit had ceased from the time of St. Justin until Vatican II.<br /><br />Cardinal Ratzinger's "fabrication" terminology would seem less accurate if the current OF were more clearly a faithful implementation of Sacrosanctum Concilium.<br /><br />Whereas I attribute more merit to the OF than do some do, I could hardly argue that SC has yet been faithfully implemented.Henrynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-92114169158115889442014-02-24T18:49:59.633-05:002014-02-24T18:49:59.633-05:00PI, we've been through all this before - '...PI, we've been through all this before - 'fabricated', 'made up', 'put together', 'assembled' - they all mean the same thing. The problem is that in English certain words and phrases, as a result of colloquial usage, acquire a secondary pejorative meaning, so a 'fabrication' can mean a falsehood, and to 'make something up' can mean to tell a lie. Seizing on the secondary meaning and excluding the primary one can lead to false inferences. Even worse is when through laziness or ignorance a word acquires a pejorative meaning which unless qualified it doesn't have; 'discrimination' is a prime example.<br /><br />Which is all the more reason for retaining Latin as a liturgical language. English is so widespread and so unregulated that it means different things to different people. In England a rubber is an eraser, not a condom, and when a London girl says 'I'm mad about my flat' she means she is really pleased with her apartment, not that she is annoyed because her tyre (tire) has a puncture.<br /><br /><br />John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-26091767183832446542014-02-24T16:35:58.796-05:002014-02-24T16:35:58.796-05:00Ted - The OF was not"fabricated." It con...Ted - The OF was not"fabricated." It contains the elements -all of them - that are given by St Justin in his SECOND century description of / apologia for the Christian Eucharist.<br /><br />The notion that it was fabricated is simply untrue.Pater Ignotusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-20336531526908856462014-02-23T23:03:02.961-05:002014-02-23T23:03:02.961-05:00Before I retire for the evening:
If simplicity is...Before I retire for the evening:<br /><br />If simplicity is a desirable goal (which I'm not so sure that it should be), then wouldn't reducing (simplifying) the OF by limiting it to what I suggested above (only the "EF options" with no other options remaining) be in accordance with this goal? Are we concerned more with too many signs of the Cross or are too many options in the Rite for the priest to choose our biggest problem? Of course, ad libbed abuses add even more complications to the mix. . .<br /><br />John Nolan,<br /> As usual, well said--I couldn't agree more! Joseph Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00036852763902493131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-67163756361737767232014-02-23T19:25:19.708-05:002014-02-23T19:25:19.708-05:00There is some rather confused thinking here. SP wa...There is some rather confused thinking here. SP was not a failed attempt to reconcile the SSPX (this is the view peddled by the usual suspects at PrayTell, and I'm surprised to find Fr MacDonald repeating it). The issue with the Society is a doctrinal one, relating to certain documents of the Second Vatican Council.<br /><br />The status of the classic Roman Rite has been an issue for fifty years - the Latin Mass Society was founded in England back in 1965. The promulgation of a new Missal by Paul VI in 1969 gave added impetus to the debate, which involved canonists, liturgical scholars and high-ranking ecclesiastics (including Cardinal Ratzinger). Summorum Pontificum was the logical outcome of this debate. It should have happened twenty years before, after a commission of nine cardinals had ruled that the Old Rite had never been abrogated, but there was strident opposition from certain bishops. SP's empowering of clergy and laity was a masterstroke.<br /><br />"Elitist" is a term of abuse directed at those whose cultural values are different from those of the commonalty, and at high culture generally. Opera is frequently so described, usually by those who object to its receiving public subsidy. Pope Francis's Mass (Latin, chant, classical polyphony) would be considered irredeemably elitist by the "spirit of V2" crowd. It's a term best avoided, unless one wishes to be branded a philistine. John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-11882348692880418332014-02-23T18:26:40.934-05:002014-02-23T18:26:40.934-05:00Joseph Johnson
Bingo! Or at least the 1962 order ...Joseph Johnson<br /><br />Bingo! Or at least the 1962 order with current translation This should be done soonest by the Pope...it would fix 80-90 percent of what is wrong with the OF. Also turn the priest around, move the tabernacle back to the asp of the Sanctuary, and restore the old calendar, with updates for new saints. Latin for those who prefer it, international masses, or high holy days and vernacular (the new translation) for "ordinary" use. This would reunite the mass with the organic development and it would eliminate the stupid question of which mass. It would be one.<br /><br />If this had been the result 50 years ago we could have avoided much of the liturgical train wreck, and there would of been no "emergency" and no SSPX. What a wasted mess we have lived through in resources, anguish and loss of souls.CPT Tomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09154486079844169215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-72008161544606815692014-02-23T16:54:24.533-05:002014-02-23T16:54:24.533-05:00I think we have to be honest here and admit that i...I think we have to be honest here and admit that if the E.F. were made the exclusive Roman form, then we would have the same kind of music as the O.F. has today, there would be the same amount of "flexibility" accorded to its rubrics as is given to the O.F. today, it would be offered mostly versus populum, Communion would be mostly in the hand (remember that this practice was wide-spread before it was allowed), the Eucharistic canon would often be ad libbed or abbreviated (seminaries encouraged this in the Sixties), veiled women would get harsh stares, etc. <br /><br />Anyone who prefers the E.F. should support its celebration, and then such communities of support will bear fruit in: vocations, works of mercy and virtue. Such fruits are bound to be noticed by the right people at the right time, prompted by the Holy Ghost. Rood Screenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09816036539243214384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-34935093435494004832014-02-23T16:45:40.936-05:002014-02-23T16:45:40.936-05:00I have been mostly on the sidelines for quite a wh...I have been mostly on the sidelines for quite a while, but I have to comment at this point. If any form of the Roman Rite is elitist it is the OF. This one was fabricated by the elite experts, who knew better than anyone else in the world what was best for Catholicism. Nay they knew what was best for you and me, and they determined that after almost 1962 years they would usher in the glory of the golden age of Catholicism, to conquer the whole world, with their new Mass. Of course, satan had other plans for that kind of human pride, and Paul VI relized too late to what extent the smoke of satan had entered the sanctuaries of the Church. <br />If anyone is elitist today it is those who think the OF can be salvaged. Lets face it, it cannot be salvaged because it is a Mass that no longer speaks to the world of 2014. We have to go back to the Council and its documents, and form a new Consilium that will follow its guidelines as it should have in the first place instead of exuding the ideology of the post WW2 mentality.Tednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-72778383166306672052014-02-23T15:45:27.744-05:002014-02-23T15:45:27.744-05:00If anything, what Deacon Sandy said on that video ...If anything, what Deacon Sandy said on that video sounded elitist (the way he talked about doing things differently at Good Shepherd).<br /><br />I don't want to be elitist--I just want to be able to go to Mass and concentrate on the Sacrifice of Jesus and not have to deal with any major differences from priest to priest and parish to parish. I don't want to be distracted by some of the more controversial elements which often appear at OF Masses. The flexibility and options contained in the OF are its greatest shortcomings. <br /><br />Just make the OF more like the EF (get rid of the options, by legislation, and restore it to something very close to the 1965 Latin/vernacular Mass). It's easy enough: Confiteor, Kyrie, Gloria, Nicene Creed, Roman Canon, Communion kneeling and on the tongue (with both species only on special occasions and by intinction only)--get rid of the other options and this gives a consistent framework that is in continuity with the EF. What's so hard about that? Oh, and NO Glory Praise music!!Joseph Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00036852763902493131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-41032658835223853852014-02-23T15:22:28.611-05:002014-02-23T15:22:28.611-05:00I agree with Henry that Pope Benedict was hoping f...I agree with Henry that Pope Benedict was hoping for a mutual enrichment when he freed the older rite of Mass. In fact, he put this goal in writing in his letter to the bishops accompanying his legendary motu proprio. <br /><br />The old Roman rite of Mass should be treasured by all Catholics, and actively supported by those personally attracted to it. Hopefully, the Church will mine a few of its treasures for use in the reformed rite. That's a modest but realistic goal. <br /><br />Personally, I find it easier to focus on Calvary when celebrating Mass according to the E.F. than according to the O.F. But I also acknowledge that most laymen and most older priests prefer the O.F. I don't see anything wrong with that. Rood Screenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09816036539243214384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-25984130678402537892014-02-23T14:47:44.876-05:002014-02-23T14:47:44.876-05:00Father,
I don't think it's objective or ...Father, <br /><br />I don't think it's objective or fair to label people who believe the EF is the way out of our mess as "elitists". Many of us have a sincere conviction about this. It's bad enough having to live down all the negative stereotypes thrown at trads, but to hear the name-calling come from you is scary.Stanley Kramernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-86683602815549875872014-02-23T14:45:59.152-05:002014-02-23T14:45:59.152-05:00I appreciate your website very much, Fr. McDonald....I appreciate your website very much, Fr. McDonald. I tend to concur with nearly all of that which you write about.<br /><br />Regarding the LIturgy, I concur that that the problem is not with the OF but with those who celebrate it in an unworthy manner.<br /><br />To purloin a well known exchange:<br /><br />“What’s wrong with the (Liturgy) today?” and Chesterton (likely would have) responded simply,<br /><br />“Dear Sir,<br /><br />I am.<br /><br />Yours, G.K. Chesterton (i.e., any one of us).”Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13388899986377479033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-22810327852353260142014-02-23T13:59:02.103-05:002014-02-23T13:59:02.103-05:00Anon at 12:02,
The Church is not a democracy- you...Anon at 12:02,<br /><br />The Church is not a democracy- you don't get a vote.Carol H.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02475843499648488542noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-26648924859726378302014-02-23T13:40:19.323-05:002014-02-23T13:40:19.323-05:00Liberal Catholicism will die and very soon. And so...Liberal Catholicism will die and very soon. And so will all their silly nonsense. 50 years, a 100 years is nothing in the life of the Church. Hopefully the Missal of Paul VI, a product of a commission, will be forgotten and the Church's traditional Mass will be restored to it's rightful place and the liberal silly season will be over. <br /><br />Francis and his modernism does scare me one bit because in the end it means nothing. He will be thrown under the bus when it becomes clear that he CANNOT CHANGE DOCTRINE even if he wants to. He CAN'T permit women into Holy Orders. He CAN'T say that homosexual marriage is permissible. He CAN'T say abortion is allowed in certain circumstances. He CAN'T teach that it is permissible and good for people living in objective mortal sin can receive communion worthily without benefit of confession. And the liberals, and Francis is one to be sure, will hate him for it. And let's not forget when Pius IX was elected he was considered a liberal and he saved the Church. Christ can and does use weak vessels to accomplish His will.<br /><br />Right now liberals are ecstatic because Francis doesn't wear red shoes, and let's be clear it is liberals who really care about that stuff with a passion, they hate it. Normal faithful. Catholics don't think anything off it. <br /><br />Popes come and go. Heresies come and go. But the Faith will remain in all it's purity regardless of the NY Times, Obama, the UN, pro abortion nuns, the Kennedy family, the Cuomo family, evil priests, evil nuns, mis guided popes etc. In the end it is Christ's Church and no power on earth or under the earth will destroy her. The war has already been won. But some battles persist.<br /><br />Anonymous 99Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-25647117676517432772014-02-23T12:30:57.581-05:002014-02-23T12:30:57.581-05:00Anonymous, the question was not whether I should j...Anonymous, the question was not whether I should jump ship, rather what I found when I did so.<br /><br />I certainly do not expect all of my questions to be answered. You and Ignotus and a few others lil eyou on the blog never answer questions anyway.Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-62824892337642428262014-02-23T12:02:34.928-05:002014-02-23T12:02:34.928-05:00"it was an olive branch to reconcile the schi..."it was an olive branch to reconcile the schismatic SSPX"<br /><br />Actually, I believe the larger intent was to provide the EF as a model for "mutual enrichment" to save the OF for the preponderant majority of the Church. And it will have precisely that effect as more and more young priests and seminarians are exposed to the EF, and only thereby realize their real identity as OF celebrants.Henrynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-80908580982149500272014-02-23T12:02:11.073-05:002014-02-23T12:02:11.073-05:00On the question of whether Preacher Gene should ju...On the question of whether Preacher Gene should jump ship yet again:<br />I vote AYE<br /><br />On the question of whether every question the good preacher asks deserves and must receive an answer:<br />I vote NAY<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-83480914833683761472014-02-23T11:58:39.713-05:002014-02-23T11:58:39.713-05:00In addition, I had hoped that have two forms of th...In addition, I had hoped that have two forms of the one Latin Rite would not be more divisive for an already divided Church and would bring inner healing, but those who want the EF Mass have become strident in wanting that Mass only. It makes me question the advisability of such a liberal dispensation for it, when in fact I was and still am, but not as enthusiastically as I once was, because of the negative attitudes so many are now developing toward the OF.Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-5712188394076975302014-02-23T11:58:18.419-05:002014-02-23T11:58:18.419-05:00"Luke, what I fear the pope fears and many, m..."Luke, what I fear the pope fears and many, many bishops is that Pope Benedict's liberal allowance for the EF Mass has fueled the fires of those who want this Mass exclusively" and that otherwise they'll go into schism.<br /><br />If so, this fear is based in ignorance of the type of people who typically want the EF Mass (perhaps exclusively for themselves, but not for forcing it on everyone else). <br /><br />In fact, a distinguishing characteristic of most EF folks I've known is a much more intense loyalty to Pope and Church than is typical of most ordinary parishes.<br /><br />I recall the first time a former bishop attended an EF Mass and the social that followed. He later expressed (privately) surprise and even shock at what visibly wholesome and joyous Catholics these TLM folks were, admitting that he'd sort of expected them to be visibly "different".Henrynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-31981479803172555272014-02-23T11:55:52.374-05:002014-02-23T11:55:52.374-05:00Gene, it was an olive branch to reconcile the schi...Gene, it was an olive branch to reconcile the schismatic SSPX and it failed because of the SSPX's arrogance and pride thus humiliating the Holy Father and perhaps one of the contributing factors of his resignation. Many bishops of the world were opposed to the more liberal allowance of the EF under SP although Pope John Paul had another method of allowing it more strictly controlled by local bishops and under that provision Savannah has had the EF Mass since the 1990's. Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-5783213068225257342014-02-23T11:48:31.016-05:002014-02-23T11:48:31.016-05:00"To claim that making the sign of the Cross t..."To claim that making the sign of the Cross three times over the Host rather than just once is the difference between a strong Church and a weak one, just sounds silly. There are many other such comparisons one could make between the two Roman forms of Mass."<br /><br />Well, I certainly agree that any such comparison not only sounds silly, but is silly. (As I take it you intended it to be.) Not only have I never heard anyone claim this, the real difference between the two forms has little to do with such mechanical things. Although I do think that whether one genuflects or kneels to Our Lord not only reflects belief but affects it.<br /><br />But your final point, JBS, is well taken. I am old enough to remember avant garde priests injecting some of the same silly things into the traditional Mass as they do today in the OF.Henrynoreply@blogger.com