tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post7858380841467892882..comments2024-03-28T20:30:10.681-04:00Comments on southern orders: WAS THIS MASS BY BLESSED POPE PAUL VI REALLY ALL IN ITALIAN? I CAN'T GET A STRAIGHT ANSWER ANYWHERE! Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-71005333764365459582015-03-07T08:36:50.488-05:002015-03-07T08:36:50.488-05:00Anonymous Steven,
Read his encyclicals, letters a...Anonymous Steven,<br /><br />Read his encyclicals, letters and various audiences. They paint a picture. Rood Screenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09816036539243214384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-64865489198971202232015-03-06T20:18:39.901-05:002015-03-06T20:18:39.901-05:00This looks to me like a papal Low Mass where the p...This looks to me like a papal Low Mass where the pope is assisted by two bishops and four papal MCs, with two chamberlains (cubicularii) acting as torchbearers - you can see them to the right of the picture. Six (not seven) candles would be lit, and there would have been a bugia. The pope does not wear the pontifical dalmatic and tunicle, nor the pallium.<br /><br />There are photographs and a video clip of Pius XII celebrating such a Mass in St Peter's. 7 March 1965 was the first day of the 'interim Missal' which allowed extensive use of the vernacular (some countries, including England, jumped the gun and introduced it the previous year). The 'silent' prayers, including the Canon, were still in Latin. <br /><br />Note the makeshift 'altar' (actually a common table). Inter Oecumenici had recommended versus populum and until sanctuaries were 'reordered' this was common practice. The 'ambo' is a simple lectern.<br /><br />If there was any singing, it would have consisted of vernacular hymns, allowed at Low Mass even before the Council.John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-24119031698162087592015-03-06T17:19:54.418-05:002015-03-06T17:19:54.418-05:00JBS, I'd be interested if you would recommend ...JBS, I'd be interested if you would recommend sources that discuss that perspective of Blessed Paul VI.<br /><br />StevenAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-26924526678453347832015-03-06T12:49:24.621-05:002015-03-06T12:49:24.621-05:00Witnessing the rapid decolonization of the world, ...Witnessing the rapid decolonization of the world, the establishment of popular democracy in Europe and the bi-polarization of nations between the USA and the USSR, I think Paul VI was desperate to transform the appearance of the Church from European elitism to global acceptability, before it was too late. He seemed at once to lament the death of what was left of Christendom and its liturgical culture, and at the same time to put his hope in a new culture enriched by the missionary contributions of newly converted peoples. <br /><br />Although they are often contrasted with him, I think JPII and BXVI shared his vision. Rood Screenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09816036539243214384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-16952440797607011042015-03-06T09:59:59.937-05:002015-03-06T09:59:59.937-05:00The English translation is:
..The new rite of Mas...The English translation is:<br /><br />..The new rite of Mass states that the faithful know (how to) sing 'together, in the Latin language, at least the parts of the ordinary of the Mass, and especially the symbol of the faith (Credo) and the Lord's prayer, the Our Father".<br /><br />It is interesting how progressives overlook Blessed Paul VI's subsequent requests, although His Holiness should be faulted for not mandating it in the vernacular Roman Missals of 1970!Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-91634868335498085102015-03-06T09:56:01.731-05:002015-03-06T09:56:01.731-05:00Paul VI later assured everyone that Latin would re...Paul VI later assured everyone that Latin would remain in the Mass, even saying as late as 1969: "...il nuovo rito della Messa stabilisce che i fedeli sappiano cantare ‘insieme, in lingua latina, almeno le parti dell’ordinario della Messa, e specialmente il simbolo della fede e la preghiera del Signore, il Padre nostro". (There's no English version on the Vatican website.)Rood Screenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09816036539243214384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-87408092100369952062015-03-06T09:54:38.175-05:002015-03-06T09:54:38.175-05:00But if it was chanted, where to propers chanted in...But if it was chanted, where to propers chanted in Latin or Italian? Were the parts of the Mass, Kyrie, (no Gloria, it was Lent) Credo, Sanctus and Agnus Dei chanted in Latin or Italian.<br /><br />So many darn questions and no darn answers!Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-35827183814635096562015-03-06T09:53:36.930-05:002015-03-06T09:53:36.930-05:00You are right and in addition to that there is the...You are right and in addition to that there is the traditional "episcopal" candle on the altar. It could well have been a high Mass or a sung Mass, but not solemn high, meaning a deacon and subdeacon present.<br /><br />If you note too, there is an "ambo" to the left of the altar indicating that it was used for the readings.<br /><br />In the 1965 Missal, it was permitted after the Prayers at the Foot of the altar (which omitted Psalm 42, which is what is done at Requiems and during Passion and Holy Week)for the priest to go to the chair for the Kyrie and Gloria. but this was common or required in Episcopal Masses even with Roman Missals prior to the 1962 Missal. Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-31085481408485263502015-03-06T09:50:00.421-05:002015-03-06T09:50:00.421-05:00And another thought: judging from the number of ca...And another thought: judging from the number of candles on the altar, would it be fair to assume this was not a spoken Mass?Michaelhttp://quicumquevult.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-51066522897082295882015-03-06T09:42:05.827-05:002015-03-06T09:42:05.827-05:00I had this EXACT same question at Fr Z's blog!...I had this EXACT same question at Fr Z's blog! Michaelhttp://quicumquevult.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.com