tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post755279709935730764..comments2024-03-28T09:14:32.869-04:00Comments on southern orders: BEING TOO CRITICAL OF EITHER FORM OF THE MASS DIMINISHES THE GRACES GOD OFFERS IN ANY VALID FORMFr. Allan J. McDonaldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-32975557279667657462016-05-27T10:58:09.258-04:002016-05-27T10:58:09.258-04:00Using altar girls was an innovation which further ...Using altar girls was an innovation which further politicized the Mass. For libs, politics trumps the sacredTJMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-70850610503844995892016-05-27T09:30:27.149-04:002016-05-27T09:30:27.149-04:00John Nolan,
I quite agree. John Nolan,<br /><br />I quite agree. Rood Screenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09816036539243214384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-55501777130592734322016-05-27T08:50:31.282-04:002016-05-27T08:50:31.282-04:00@Dialogue:
Thank you for the question. Years ago,...@Dialogue:<br /><br />Thank you for the question. Years ago, I did not see it as being a major issue either. But then I began to notice a trend among the then-few parishes that still used a male-only altar server corps. They had lots of altar boys and each year there was at least one young man from those parishes that was being ordained to the priesthood. I was intrigued, especially because one of my jobs in my diocese is to examine ways to help increase vocations to the priesthood. These parishes were not Extraordinary Form parishes (though their Ordinary Form was exceptionally-reverent and well done). They had female lectors and cantors, but male only altar servers. So I dug a bit deeper. I looked up one of the recent CARA reports on the priestly ordinations for (what I think was 2012 or 2013...can't remember) and found that nearly 80 to 85% of the men ordained had been altar servers at one time and pointed to that experience as an important one in discerning their vocation. In my own diocese, there was a disproportionate amount of men coming from male-only altar server parishes. So, I began to ask those priests at those parishes about their policy. Some had had female altar servers in the past, and very, very few boys. They found that, as girls came into the ranks, their higher level of maturity at a younger age made them better at serving than the young boys, and the boys (of middle school age) began to loathe to be around them. It became a "girls" activity, and so they quit. Those that hung around until high school, were done as soon as they were freshmen. Interestingly, these parishes and those that retained female service, had nearly zero or few vocations to the priesthood. This was the opposite of those male-only altar server parishes, and the opposite of the experience of those parishes which became male-only. One of the things the priests at these parishes often say is that alter service is different than the other forms of liturgical activity in that it is really an apprenticeship for the priesthood. Girls cannot be ordained priests, and so their is a ceiling there that cannot be surmounted. Also, interestingly-enough, those parishes with male-only altar service from boyhood through adulthood saw an increase in vocations to the permanent diaconate as well. There seems to be a strong connection between altar service and vocations to the diaconate and priesthood. And perhaps this is why the Vatican recommended maintaining male altar service, though it allowed female servers. I see this wisdom as well.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-65799169784948660902016-05-26T19:01:17.979-04:002016-05-26T19:01:17.979-04:00Dialogue, the same objections that I have, Paul VI...Dialogue, the same objections that I have, Paul VI had, John Paul II had, all those parishes who do not allow this (very recent) practice have. Is it really necessary to justify such an objection? I would have thought the reasoning was obvious.John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-60306034173522092722016-05-26T17:17:58.763-04:002016-05-26T17:17:58.763-04:00Anonymous,
What is your objection to girls servin...Anonymous,<br /><br />What is your objection to girls serving at the altar?Rood Screenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09816036539243214384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-64380182138662719962016-05-26T12:25:06.694-04:002016-05-26T12:25:06.694-04:00Henry, I first read that article as part of a coll...Henry, I first read that article as part of a collection of his essays called "Topics on Tradition," which is a compendium of essays on these topics. That, along with his other book, "The Binding Force of Tradition," should be required reading for anyone concerned with these topics, especially priests.<br /><br />What we see among many priests is a lack of sufficient philosophical training, especially with regard to Thomistic philosophy, which underlies this entire question. Without that training, for reasons that I don't fully understand, there appears to be a tendency toward minimalism.<br /><br />It seems rather clear to me that doing the bare minimum, i.e. merely having a valid Mass, might strictly satisfy our obligations to God in justice, it is a deficient way of fulfilling our obligation of charity and piety toward God. <br /><br />Now that I think of it this way, I am reminded of the recent papal document which sets up an ideal, but holds it is unattainable in most circumstances. That is emblematic of the post-conciliar ethos, which is partially supported by the Protestant error that we can do nothing vis-a-vis God anyway so we are not bound to try. In other words, it is the sin of presumption.<br /><br />I don't know whether the Novus Ordo somehow better disposes people in limited circumstances. The deficiency of the rite itself, as explained by Fr. Ripperger, means that, even under optimal circumstances, the exterior merit of the Novus Ordo (if it is valid in the first place) is limited. The reality that the sacrificial nature of the Mass is obscured by the ceremonial of the Novus Ordo is itself a stumbling block toward proper disposition.Marchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13510317669833026685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-4606862716390233502016-05-26T11:32:10.355-04:002016-05-26T11:32:10.355-04:00Marc, it’s too bad there’s no way of requiring tha...Marc, it’s too bad there’s no way of requiring that every priest and bishop read and assimilate Fr. Ripperger’s article—the most accessible exposition I’ve seen of the “distinction of merits” between different celebrations of the Mass. Every pre-Vatican II seminarian was schooled in this standard Eucharistic theology, but many or post-Vatican II priests are ignorant of the distinction between the infinite “intrinsic value” of every valid Mass as a sacrifice of infinite merit offered by Christ Himself, and the finite “extrinsic value” of a particular Mass to individuals who are limited by their differing abilities in different circumstances to actually receive and profit from the spiritual fruits of the sacrifice. <br /><br />In such ignorance, it is easy to fall into the error of assuming that, so long as a Mass is validly offered, it doesn’t matter what differences there may be in the manner of its celebration by the priest or in its reception by worshipers. In other words, that validity of the Mass is all that matters.<br /><br />Fr. Ripperger summarizes in detail the particulars or exterior “accidents” by which any two different celebrations of Mass (whether in the same or different forms) may differ considerably in extrinsic value, depending upon the dispositions of priests and participants, differences in ritual and solemnity of celebration, beauty and decora, conditions for efficacious prayer, etc. Perhaps even some unfamiliar with traditional Eucharistic theology will find that the article supports his final conclusion:<br /><br />“It is safe to say that, objectively speaking, with respect to the ritual itself the old rite of Mass has an ability to merit more than the new rite of Mass. While this merit is accidental, since the essential or intrinsic merit of the Mass, which is the Sacrifice of Christ, is the same in both rites, it is nevertheless something serious. Since the faithful are the beneficiaries of the fruits derived from this aspect of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, we have a grave obligation to consider the impact that this factor may be having on the life of the Church. While it is not our intention to denigrate the new rite, we must recognize that the ritual of Mass used in the old rite is more meritorious and therefore more beneficial for the people who assist at it and for the priests who offer it.”<br /><br />Though it might also be argued that many people today are nevertheless better prepared or disposed to benefit from the new rite than for the older rite, especially if the new rite is offered in a more efficacious manner than is common in many typical mainstream parishes.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-3688884475232423262016-05-26T11:23:39.582-04:002016-05-26T11:23:39.582-04:00Pope Benedict knelt and so did Pope John Paul II, ...Pope Benedict knelt and so did Pope John Paul II, at least he tried. There are pictures of Pope JP II bent over with a hump on his back kneeling before Our Lord in the MBS. Something Francis will never do.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-3578867793524726592016-05-26T11:21:57.338-04:002016-05-26T11:21:57.338-04:00"If a mortal sin for you, I recommend confess..."If a mortal sin for you, I recommend confession"<br /><br />Why confession Father. Pope Francis has just taught that a person can be in objective mortal sin and still receive sanctifying grace. He also teaches that adulterers can go to confession and don't have to confess their adultery. Why do I have to confess my mortal sins if adulterers don't have to? Why?! Answer me. And don't say he doesn't teach all of that nonsense. It is right their Chapter 8 of the scandalous document AL. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-42042014142814433572016-05-26T09:50:40.797-04:002016-05-26T09:50:40.797-04:00As long as there aren't any altar girls, okey-...As long as there aren't any altar girls, okey-dokey. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-23412557814757508692016-05-26T09:23:10.131-04:002016-05-26T09:23:10.131-04:00Father, I recommend to you this article by Fr. Cha...Father, I recommend to you <a href="http://www.u.arizona.edu/~aversa/modernism/Merit%20of%20the%20Mass%20(Fr.%20Ripperger,%20F.S.S.P.).pdf" rel="nofollow">this article</a> by Fr. Chad Ripperger on the Merit of the Mass.Marchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13510317669833026685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-5925941801860960152016-05-26T09:07:03.302-04:002016-05-26T09:07:03.302-04:00What you say is certainly true. But I think a she...What you say is certainly true. But I think a shepherd of the Church must lend an attentive ear to the cries of the sheep, who are undoubtedly well-fed, but who are beset by wolves in sheep's clothing. The contest between OF and EF is really only a surface feature of this deeper spiritual violence. As a priest, you are spared the experience of sitting through weekly celebrations of the Mass in which numerous worldly distractions are diabolically introduced by the celebrant and other liturgical planners. Just because a congregation receives the grace of the sacraments does not excuse these evils being perpetrated against them by wayward clergy, nor does it relieve us of the obligation to combat these evils. <br /><br />It is a matter of faith that a valid Mass in grace-filled, but so is martyrdom. Rood Screenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09816036539243214384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-41392325677731520572016-05-26T08:58:01.430-04:002016-05-26T08:58:01.430-04:00Anonymous, you've got to be kidding. When I se...Anonymous, you've got to be kidding. When I see a priest the age of Santita,I expect that he cannot genuflect. I am younger than the Pope, but due to a deteriorating hip, I cannot genuflect. Quod faciam?TJMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-20098216772192530802016-05-26T08:48:53.792-04:002016-05-26T08:48:53.792-04:00You must be a coloring book Catholic who doesn'...You must be a coloring book Catholic who doesn't understand physical difficulty in genuflecting, which is different than kneeling and that your hyper-critical attitude toward the Holy Father in this matter is down right uncharitable and on the surface can be classified as a mortal sin--examine your conscience to determine if it is or isn't: Serious matter is present in being uncharitable. If you know it is a sin, you are then culpable of it being a mortal sin and if you persist in your uncharitableenss with full consent of the will, it certainly is a mortal sin and not a venial sin.<br /><br />If a mortal sin for you, I recommend confession. Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-27805725911348881372016-05-26T08:22:00.986-04:002016-05-26T08:22:00.986-04:00So when I see Pope Francis refuse to genuflect at ...So when I see Pope Francis refuse to genuflect at Mass as prescribed by the rubrics I should or shouldn't be scandalized? Remember he has no problem crawling on the floor at the feet of Muslims. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com