tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post7225733002645919624..comments2024-03-28T20:30:10.681-04:00Comments on southern orders: THE THEOLOGY AND SPIRIT OF DENIGRATIONFr. Allan J. McDonaldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-16242316698249171612010-08-04T08:05:49.753-04:002010-08-04T08:05:49.753-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-35575067685923234492010-08-03T16:20:02.341-04:002010-08-03T16:20:02.341-04:00I will agree here with Pater that the loss of reve...I will agree here with Pater that the loss of reverence is not confined to the Church alone, but has spread through out society since the 1960s.<br /><br />However I think that only reinforces the urgency to restore a sense of reverence during the Mass and through the life of Catholics. Society as a whole needs a return to reverence and respect, and it should be The Church that leads the way.Templarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18204866760862707908noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-23449907380788093942010-08-03T00:41:26.627-04:002010-08-03T00:41:26.627-04:00Pater Ignotus,
We're still waiting for a repl...Pater Ignotus,<br /><br />We're still waiting for a reply on whether or not you allow the EF in your parish. Just a simple yes or no!<br /><br />See link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSV9_J8CstsAdlainoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-302366715427954832010-08-02T23:05:25.623-04:002010-08-02T23:05:25.623-04:00John Hardon defined reverence in his Catholic dict...John Hardon defined reverence in his Catholic dictionary as a complex virtue of honoring a Person’s / person’s dignity with respect and awe. It would seem to be the opposite of denigration. It does not call for measurement it calls for prudence.<br /> <br />In Catholicity, Latin became universally integral as verbal expression of reverence. It defies imprudence. <br /><br />Apparel associated with semiotic significance that indexes the divine, deserves recognition, awe, and honor of the associated divine dignity. <br /><br />I would dare say that we don’t bring reverence with us but it is that reverence brings us. As Catholics we ask for it, it can’t be imposed. The architecture of love draws it. Even if it is as shallow as a simple posture; ... the truth is a rose is a rose even in rocky soil... A position in the process of spiritual development should not be confused with disingenuity; and, isn’t presumption a...?<br /> <br />John Paul II reminds us that mockery is the first step in persecution. In my view this blog correctly makes the point that despite the secular pseudo-culture that endorses and cultivates a rat race where cruelty and denigration rule the day; as followers of Christ we don’t practice cruelty, denigration...or persecution. We don’t take honor, we don’t disrespect God’s Dignity. As Catholics we construct architecture of love. We give awe, with eyes that see and honor with ears that hear. After all, if we run that Pauline race as rats, then when we cross the finish line are we not still acting like rats?<br /> <br />Who wants to embrace salvation acting as a rat? Is this not the root of “rataphobia”?<br /><br />Celebrating the OF and the EF in the same parochial sea beautifies our spirituality and accents our parish architecture of love for God with elegant filigree unworthy of denigration or persecution. It is functional beauty in a spiritual way not a political way.<br /><br />To those acting like rats I say, do not be afraid, peace be upon your house. Look only to Christ. For me, I’ll leave the politics of any sort, including persecution, to the acting like rats and have comfort in understanding it’s their cross to bear.-Brianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01586480579220554662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-9669721028027349682010-08-02T23:03:20.866-04:002010-08-02T23:03:20.866-04:00"Reverence" is an alertness measured by ..."Reverence" is an alertness measured by the heart and your total emersion in the event of "heaven on earth". Your lamp fully lit and prepared to meet our Lord.<br />"Pater" come in from the cold and feel the warmth of a most reverent EF Mass. <br />Change is enevitable, suffering is optional.Seekerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07707415545572897505noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-8704591993558443402010-08-02T23:00:07.950-04:002010-08-02T23:00:07.950-04:00John Hardon defined reverence in his Catholic dict...John Hardon defined reverence in his Catholic dictionary as a complex virtue of honoring a Person’s / person’s dignity with respect and awe. It would seem to be the opposite of denigration. It does not call for measurement it calls for prudence.<br /> <br />In Catholicity, Latin became universally integral as verbal expression of reverence. It defies imprudence.<br /> <br />Apparel associated with semiotic significance that indexes the divine, deserves recognition, awe, and honor of the associated divine dignity.<br /> <br />I would dare say that we don’t bring reverence with us but it is that reverence brings us. As Catholics we ask for it, it can’t be imposed. The architecture of love draws it. Even if it is as shallow as a simple posture; ... the truth is a rose is a rose even in rocky soil... A position in the process of spiritual development should not be confused with disingenuity; and, isn’t presumption a...?<br /> <br />John Paul II reminds us that mockery is the first step in persecution. In my view, this blog correctly makes the point that despite the secular pseudo-culture that endorses and cultivates a rat race where cruelty and denigration rule the day; as followers of Christ we don’t practice cruelty, denigration...or persecution. We don’t take honor, we don’t disrespect God’s Dignity. As Catholics we construct architecture of love. We give awe, with eyes that see and honor with ears that hear. After all, if we run that Pauline race as rats, then when we cross the finish line are we not still acting like rats?<br /> <br />Who wants to embrace salvation acting as a rat? Is this not the root of “rataphobia”?<br /><br />Celebrating the OF and the EF in the same parochial sea beautifies our spirituality and accents our parish architecture of love for God with elegant filigree unworthy of denigration or persecution. It is functional beauty in a spiritual way not a political way. <br /><br />To those acting like rats I say, do not be afraid, peace be upon your house. Look only to Christ. For me, I’ll leave the politics of any sort, including persecution, to those acting like rats and have comfort in understanding it’s their cross to bear.-Brianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01586480579220554662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-71584327758901752052010-08-02T16:31:47.873-04:002010-08-02T16:31:47.873-04:00The reverence one experiences during the EF comes ...The reverence one experiences during the EF comes only partially from the nature of that form of the Mass, I think. The fact is that most people who go to the EF are going to be more reverent generally*. If you were to take those people and put them in an OF Mass, they would still be equally reverent. <br /><br />The question is: if you took a typical non-reverent OF Mass attendee and put them in an EF Mass, would their reverence increase? I believe the awe and wonder of the EF would, in itself, increase their reverence. By reverence here I mean the attention paid during the Mass, the ensuring outside noises, etc. are minimized (cell phones, for example), and gestures of the people. The unquantifiable reverence, the interior disposition, would also likely be different, but we can't know that for sure other than by gauging exterior behaviors.<br /><br />* Not always - there are plenty of reverent people at the OFMarchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13510317669833026685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-86029820107070122572010-08-02T15:32:06.649-04:002010-08-02T15:32:06.649-04:00What is your measure of "reverence?" Si...What is your measure of "reverence?" Silence, hands folded, heads bowed, mantillas, a choir singing in hushed tones from a distant choir loft?<br /><br />I have been at mass with Boy Scouts, tent campers, Mexican field labourers, soldiers and airmen, and old folks in a home - all have been reverent. You see, Good Father, true reverence (not posturing) is something we bring with us to mass, not something that is imposed on us by mass.<br /><br />Does the EF offer more opportunity for reverence? No. Does the OF encourage irreverence? No.<br /><br />I think there is a serious Incarnational disconnect in many of your arguments for the EF. God did not become incarnate in one time and one form of the mass. God did not choose humans to stand in his plce - in the person of Christ - so that that person could be obliterated. <br /><br />No, Good Father, the Incarnation is Truth for all times, all places, all people. Jesus is with us in OF and EF. And it is that abiding presence that we worship, not the style of vestments nor the direction in whiuch the priest faces.Pater Ignotusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-36777950413534538932010-08-02T11:55:20.880-04:002010-08-02T11:55:20.880-04:00Pater, I appreciate your comment on some og the ot...Pater, I appreciate your comment on some og the other reasons for decline in reverence so much so people are embolened to outright contempt for others not evcluding the holy Father and traditional garb. I can only imagine what they say of the Dali Lama--o, that would be politically incorrect. I would suggest you provide a regular EFMass yourself and then judge the reverence by participants of it and the OF MassFr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-55424225712972532012010-08-02T10:51:15.511-04:002010-08-02T10:51:15.511-04:00Good Father, again I suggest you are significantly...Good Father, again I suggest you are significantly misreading the causes of the decline of "reverence' at mass. It is naive, I suggest, to think that the vast cultural changes that took place in the 1950's, 60's, and 70's did not have significant impact on the reverence or irreverence that may be experienced in Churches, Catholic and otherwise. All one has to do is look around to see that in virtually every part of human life, the reverence that was once present is largely gone.<br /><br />A very good reflection on the decline of reverence - reverence across the board, not only in church - is Paul Woodruff's small book, "Reverence." He's a Vietnam veteran turned Classics scholar who teaches at, I think, UT in Austin.<br /><br /><br />It is also a bit silly to suggest that papal red shoes are "sacred" and, therefore, should not be criticized. Personally, I don't care what color the pope's shoes are, but to try to deflect criticism you don't agree with by declaring it out of bounds is an example of the hubris you so often criticize in your posts.Pater Ignotusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-89736378918334009952010-08-02T10:12:26.028-04:002010-08-02T10:12:26.028-04:00It seems to me there may be a danger among those d...It seems to me there may be a danger among those desiring a more obviously “sacred” order of the Ordinary Form to propose its immediate construction. But even if some Vatican committee were to thoroughly revise the present OF missal in favor of an order of Mass much more consistent with the Roman liturgical tradition, it would still be the work of a few men. The brilliance of allowing the two forms to move together in the Western Church is that the Holy Ghost can now gradually prompt slight changes over time, as needed, so that what emerges from the OF in the future will be God’s work, rather than our, or even Rome’s, own.Rood Screenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09816036539243214384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-62741788217875640162010-08-01T23:05:18.658-04:002010-08-01T23:05:18.658-04:00We are in a war, a battle. If you are in fight ag...We are in a war, a battle. If you are in fight against an intelligent adversary, and we are, you must base your responses on solid principle rather than trying to counter each attack. This is difficult because it means there will be loss and sacrifice. But forgetting the tiny rats gnawing at you and acting on the solid principle defeats the rats, heals you, and may even save a few rats along the way.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-86000586398648798302010-08-01T22:00:13.318-04:002010-08-01T22:00:13.318-04:00Fr, I take this post as a civilized call for more ...Fr, I take this post as a civilized call for more civility-among-Catholics. THANK YOU. I've sworn off many many "Catholic" blogs bc I just can't stand the sniping. "See how they love each other" indeed.Glennahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06334203937303147489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-17189659923872251482010-08-01T19:48:58.392-04:002010-08-01T19:48:58.392-04:00I wish they would really get into the NO and make ...I wish they would really get into the NO and make some substantial changes instead of decades and decades of writing about what is inherently wrong with this Form of Mass. It just seems when so much has been identified, the response is not much can be done except for a few cosmetic changes that could very well disappear with the next Pontificate. How is that lasting change? If things have been determined to have been bad for the Faith or the Faithful then they should be righted, not just talked to death. Maybe a shake up is just what the NO and Faithful need. It may wake people up. Mandate and enforce one thing, Ad Orientem. See how it goes. If they can not do it, then we will all know that nothing on the rest of the list can be done and just get on with worshipping at the whim of clergy who enforce the notion of a banal liturgy and celebrations. We all know the problems by now and it seems like the whole world is afraid the move an inch for fear of capsizing a boat that has taken on all the water it can hold. There does come a point when people think "Just do something already" because if there is no movement the whole idea will founder. Already I have been told you won't see that in your lifetime. For all of us who want things better and to help with support it is entirely deflating and depressing to feel you don't get far at all. The Church may very well think in centuries but the average lay person, doesn't. For support of reform you have to see it and feel its' stability. Who is going to keep supporting something when you are told things can't be mandated, and things take generations to be fixed? The reality, very few and that is why in most places, though there is change in some it gets worse in others. Two recent parishes I wnt to, NO, both started to institute holding hands during the Our Father. Although I usually attend EF Masses I am not closed to the idea of a reverant NO Mass and although conservative, I believe in what the Holy Father thinks about the two Forms existing side by side. But the chasm between the 2 has to be narrowed.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-59432831410049159962010-08-01T12:16:21.697-04:002010-08-01T12:16:21.697-04:00Despite their gnawing on contiguous resources, hab...Despite their gnawing on contiguous resources, habituating with rats in close proximity brings an even greater danger...mortal jeopardy. <br /><br />For example, I give you the Bubonic Plague caused by sharing parasites with the rodents (fleas). It makes me wonder what parasitical sharing occurs with Catholic “human beings who act like rats” and the stand up (I.A.W. Isaiah) population of Catholics in the pews, rectories, and chancery’s? <br /><br />I’m thinking of relativism and things like pseudo-culture that fallaciously promulgates competent children and sophisticated adolescents (“pomo”). Could it be that unlike varmint parasites, our realism and orthodox catholicity, which puts God first in everything, will bring a seemingly mortal jeopardy to the _acting_ like rats that denigrates? Behaving in reverse, and presenting a vanquishing prevalence over the plague of the “isms’?<br /> <br />I really like that phrase “God’s grace leading repentance”. It is so humble. Very keen.-Brianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01586480579220554662noreply@blogger.com