tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post7215983430861649815..comments2024-03-28T20:30:10.681-04:00Comments on southern orders: LET ME GET VERY SERIOUS! PONTIFEX OR PONTIFF MEANS BRIDGE BUILDER TO GOD WHEN APPLIED TO THE POPEFr. Allan J. McDonaldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comBlogger48125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-52857267042345459652013-03-13T07:54:17.114-04:002013-03-13T07:54:17.114-04:00Pin/Gene - Yes, it was the point. I don't use...Pin/Gene - Yes, it was the point. I don't use modernist buzz words. I use the language the Church uses - popes, cardinals, and the Lord hisself. <br /><br />Now, if you want to know what I mean when I use the words of popes, cardinals, and the Lord hisself, you can ask. Pater Ignotusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-39373129640551264912013-03-13T06:45:53.637-04:002013-03-13T06:45:53.637-04:00That's nice, Ignotus, but that wasn't real...That's nice, Ignotus, but that wasn't really the point.Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-23175492574527699692013-03-12T20:30:31.217-04:002013-03-12T20:30:31.217-04:00Pin/Gene - I never suggested that Ratzinger origin...Pin/Gene - I never suggested that Ratzinger originated the phrase "already and not yet." You INVENT that idea as a straw man. <br /><br />I am glad you wrote a thesis on this stuff, but that has nothing to do with 1) my use of the phrase or 2)Ratzinger's use of the phrase.<br /><br />My use comports with Ratzinger's.Pater Ignotusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-50748483727615765142013-03-12T19:50:53.718-04:002013-03-12T19:50:53.718-04:00Anon 2, You raise a very good issue. I will addres...Anon 2, You raise a very good issue. I will address it as soon as I finish dinner and some business stuff.Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-76356906591677455842013-03-12T18:44:13.545-04:002013-03-12T18:44:13.545-04:00Gene,
You know far more about Saint Paul than I d...Gene,<br /><br />You know far more about Saint Paul than I do, or probably ever could. I wonder, though, just what these militaristic metaphors meant to him. Specifically, I wonder if he understood them somewhat differently as Paul than he had done, or would have done, as Saul. Even more specifically, in light of his famous disquisition on agape in I Corinthians 13, I wonder whether he would have regarded the gifts and fruits of the Spirit as quite compatible with these metaphors understood in a particular way.<br /><br />To take an analogy, I am trained in the Law. As such, I am trained in the use of legal rhetoric. At Mercer we introduce our students to the values/virtues of professionalism in the very first year. Those of us who are involved with the professionalism program identify the central values/virtues as competence, fidelity to the client, public service, fidelity to the law, and civility, and see their deployment in the particular circumstances of particular cases as being guided by the master virtue of practical wisdom. We recognize that sometimes – but only sometimes – it is necessary to be uncivil, depending, of course, on the circumstances. Generally speaking, however, I would say that it is much more constructive to be civil. And I don’t think anyone would accuse a well-trained, and professional, lawyer of being unable, or unwilling, to argue forcefully on behalf of his or her client. Indeed the second listed virtue requires that we do so, but again in a manner appropriate to the circumstances.<br /> <br />I see the argument, of course, that a certain type of rhetoric – even uncivil rhetoric – may be necessary when dealing with a certain type of antagonist/audience. However, what worries me is the well known risk that when all you have is a hammer everything becomes a nail. In my view, this is one of the main problems with our body politic today. A related – and perhaps even greater – problem, identified by one of my colleagues, is that we seem to have forgotten how to have meaningful and properly serious face-to-face conversations with people with whom we may strongly disagree. In this respect, blogs are part -- a big part -- of the problem. And when I say “body politic” I mean the entire “body politic,” including all those associations that are part of civil society (pun recognized) and therefore also including religious associations such as ours. <br /><br /><br /><br />Anonymous 2noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-24108087916839042832013-03-12T18:34:21.828-04:002013-03-12T18:34:21.828-04:00Kavanaugh, your theological history is a little of...Kavanaugh, your theological history is a little off...<br />Ratzinger did not originate the term "already and not yet." You see, it is just terms like this and others that you mention that can be used by two theologians and mean completely different things. Modernists and Progressives in the Church (read "resurrection deniers") have been using the term "already and not yet" for decades. The term probably originated with Frederich Schleiermacher or Albert Ritschl in the 19th century, but some credit it to Gerhard Vos kin the early 20th. At any rate, it has been used by as diverse a group of theologians as Tillich, Barth, Bultmann and, of course, Ratzinger.<br />However, its most recognized use in the theological world was by the neo-protestant/humanistic theology crowd of Ritschl, Schleiermacher and, most notably for the modern world, Paul Tillich (hey, look, Dude, I wrote a thesis on this stuff). Since this is the second page and will not be read by many, I'll make this short. I'm sure we will visit the topic again since you like the term so much. The already is the life of Jesus and his redeeming us by calling us to a true encounter with ourselves and others; the not yet is the wonderful socialist society we will create through our action based upon our renewed awareness and love of our fellow man...cue Coca Cola song...Hey, Ignotus, you are still a laugh a minute...LOL!Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-571191139461218582013-03-12T16:00:00.126-04:002013-03-12T16:00:00.126-04:00Clarification - In the 1:04 p.m. post I should hav...Clarification - In the 1:04 p.m. post I should have written, "Too often, "traditionalist" as well as Traditional Catholics misuse..." The problem is NOT only with the traditionalist crowd.Pater Ignotusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-64485221475437079402013-03-12T13:30:33.949-04:002013-03-12T13:30:33.949-04:00Temp - Here's another on that gets some folks ...Temp - Here's another on that gets some folks going: "Already and Not Yet"<br /><br />"In many respects, this notion of themselves as sojourners may have been what gave Christians their strength. In a history that was vanishing, they knew that they were the embodiment of a history that was just beginning - a history that was already theirs. In this context we can understand the "already and not yet" as a concrete historical experience."<br />- "Principles of Catholic Theology. Building Stones for Fundamental Theology" page 156 Author . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . (wait for it) . . . . . . . Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger. <br /><br />Now isn't that the darndest thing? You just never know WHERE those "modernist" buzz words are gonna sow up,do you?<br /> Pater Ignotusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-63267671759275843362013-03-12T13:04:17.823-04:002013-03-12T13:04:17.823-04:00Temp - And what might those "key buzz words&q...Temp - And what might those "key buzz words" be that indicate to you that I am a "modernist"? <br /><br />Social Justice? "Now it is of the very essence of social justice to demand for each individual all that is necessary for the common good." Pope Pius XI, March 19, 1037<br /><br />Bread of Life? "Then Jesus declared, 'I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.'" John 6:35<br /><br />Worthy of Belief? (See my previous entry at 11 March 2013, 5:00 p.m.)<br /><br />Yes, I parse my words carefully, because in the "science" of theology, words and phrases are the equivalents of weights and measures; they have to be used carefully. Too often "traditionalist" Catholics misuse, misquote, or outright misunderstand the carefully nuanced words and phrases our Church uses.<br /><br />I'll make this simple for you - Where have I EVER espoused heresy? Where have I EVER inculcated schism? Where have I EVER encouraged, promoted, or otherwise proposed that someone sin?<br /><br />I adhere with firm faith to the Traditional Catholic faith. I do not adhere to traditionalism.Pater Ignotusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-29152479487906145862013-03-12T12:37:09.084-04:002013-03-12T12:37:09.084-04:00Fr Kavanuagh, my statement that we are discusing r...Fr Kavanuagh, my statement that we are discusing revealed truth and all or nothing is the necessary approach was in response to your comment, however not aimed at you. My apologies if you took it as such. I will not search for evidence of you having openly denied revealed truth, I doubt there are any on this site, however since you asked I will say that you have a pattern of parsing your words very carefully. Often time you slip in key buzz words that modernists love to use and I assume you do it either because you are indeed a modernist too smart to openly attack the Faith; or more likely, you are playing the role of a troll hoping to get the dander up of those of a Traditionalist mind set. That habit may be why some folks question your stand on particular things. You are clearly no dummy, but for my tastes you represent the type of Clergy that is not representative of the Traditional Catholic Faith, and are openly sympathetic to, if not an outright supporter of, the failed "Spirit of V2" camp.Templarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18204866760862707908noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-14230130806068474562013-03-12T06:49:42.535-04:002013-03-12T06:49:42.535-04:00Anon 2, "To everything there is a time...&quo...Anon 2, "To everything there is a time..." Many would use the gifts and fruits of the spirit as a means of silencing others who speak against the enemies of the church...namely them. Remember, in Ephesians 6, Paul speaks in warrior terms of the "sword of the Spirit, the breastplate of righteousness, and the shield of faith..." However conciliatory or patient we may choose to be, we are still to be armed for war and, presumably, capable of giving battle. These gifts and fruits of the Spirit are also primarily borne and enjoyed within the community of believers who live according to His will. We may and should certainly exercise them as a means to bring non-believers into the fold but, after a point, non-belief becomes enemy action. This is to say nothing of unbelief...heresy/apostasy masquerading as faith. St. Michael is always depicted with a sword...Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-23030568474536231092013-03-11T18:15:50.797-04:002013-03-11T18:15:50.797-04:00Gene:
Your professions of faith on the blog are o...Gene:<br /><br />Your professions of faith on the blog are often very eloquent, powerful, and moving. And the notion of being “captured” by God is a powerful one. Some of us, of course, constantly seek ways to escape (I know I do). Perhaps we can help one another on the blog, and elsewhere, to try not to do that. And in trying not to do that, I assume we hope for the gifts of the Spirit (wisdom, understanding, counsel, fortitude, knowledge, piety, and fear of the Lord) and the fruits of the Spirit (charity, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, generosity, gentleness, faithfulness, modesty, self-control, and chastity).<br />Anonymous 2noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-88787113121200411862013-03-11T17:00:13.597-04:002013-03-11T17:00:13.597-04:00Pin/Gene - If I am the "you" to whom you...Pin/Gene - If I am the "you" to whom you refer, then I will say there is nothing in the Creeds I deny. Nothing.<br /><br />As to "worthy of belief," I think I have used that phrase only in reference to Marian apparitions that are approved by the Church. <br /><br />" 'Constat de supernaturalitate'. An apparition judged supernatural (formerly called worthy of belief) has manifested signs or evidence of being an authentic or truly miraculous intervention from heaven. This judgment is possible when there is evidence of supernatural phenomena, sound doctrine, moral probity, mental health and sound piety of the seer(s) and enduring good fruits among the faithful." <br /><br />That's what "worthy of belief" means. It's not someting I made up. It is part of our Church's doctrine.<br /><br />These [private revelations] do not demand acceptance by Catholics. As Pope Benedict states, "...it is possible to refuse to accept such revelations and to turn from them, as long as one does so with proper modesty, for good reasons, and without the intention of setting himself up as a superior." [De Serv. Dei Beatif.]<br /><br />Pater Ignotusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-68343758434232945142013-03-11T16:43:57.688-04:002013-03-11T16:43:57.688-04:00Kavanaugh, You are far too clever to openly deny r...Kavanaugh, You are far too clever to openly deny revealed truth. It is what is between your lines that is the problem.Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-34304955649520825662013-03-11T15:31:45.978-04:002013-03-11T15:31:45.978-04:00The Creeds are either/or. Belief is either/or. Fai...The Creeds are either/or. Belief is either/or. Faith is an act of will, it is not some deliberative proposition to be judged, as you said in one of your posts, "worthy of belief." Just what is that supposed to mean? Even if we are raised in the Church, at some point we must be seized by Him in such a way as to create in us a passion for His Word and Presence. Intellectual assent to Creeds and doctrines is only the beginning. Following the teachings of the Catechism is only the legalistic aspect of belief...necessary, but not sufficient. Fr. David brought this home to everyone, including myself, again at RCIA the other night. He asked everyone why they did not do certain things. To a person we all answered, "because we know it is a sin." He said, "Well, that is not why you should not do these things. You should not do these things because you love God more than these pleasures and lusts for worldly satisfaction." <br />So, there is no middle ground when it comes to belief. You cannot take a position half way between belief and unbelief, between Heaven and Hell. Our will must be enslaved to His; we must be captured by Him.Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-60727119866868231672013-03-11T14:42:26.180-04:002013-03-11T14:42:26.180-04:00Temp - Can you make reference to ANY "reveale...Temp - Can you make reference to ANY "revealed Truth" that I have denied? Citing what I said and when I said it, if on this blog, would be helpful.Pater Ignotusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-74429781787201179162013-03-11T12:40:12.720-04:002013-03-11T12:40:12.720-04:00While I agree that "all or nothing thinking&q...While I agree that "all or nothing thinking" doesn't work well when debating secular topics, it is decidedly exactly the type of thinking required for any Theological discussion. We are discussing revealed Truth, there is no room for shades of gray. That's precisely the problem with the Church in the Post-V2 era, too much acceptance of "truth from a particular point of view". It's all Heresy.Templarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18204866760862707908noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-24613863567997574992013-03-11T12:34:09.193-04:002013-03-11T12:34:09.193-04:00In my humble opinion, all Catholic Priests lost th...In my humble opinion, all Catholic Priests lost the right to be above question with their corruption of V2 Liturgical renewal and the cover up of the Homosexual Abuse scandal. Questioning their Orthodoxy is nothing they should fear if they are in fact Orthodox. They should welcome it. If the last 50 years have taught the Laity ANYTHING about Our Faith it's that we need to take possession of it and own it, not just follow along with what we're told by our Parish Priests who have led us astray time after time.<br /><br />As for attending a Fr. Kavanaugh Mass, he filled in at St Joseph earlier this year, so yes I have attended one. It was very horizontal in it's nature, with all of his words, and rubrical gestures directed towards the people. Templarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18204866760862707908noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-8527441807489435742013-03-11T11:55:20.351-04:002013-03-11T11:55:20.351-04:00From the blog of Msgr. Charlie Pope, Washington, D...From the blog of Msgr. Charlie Pope, Washington, DC, October 2012: "One of the more common features of discussion and debate in the modern setting, often so polarized polemical, is the problem of “all or nothing thinking.”<br /><br />All or nothing thinking is a kind of cognitive distortion which is forgetful that life often has subtlety, and that, between two positions, there may be middle ground which can and should be considered.<br /><br />All or nothing thinking also has a strong influence the discussion of issues today. If the person articulates position, or point of view on some topic, they are often presumed by many to hold that position in an extreme sort of the way, without any distinction or qualifications."...<br /><br />"But I am finding that many today, more than in the past, do divert quickly to all or nothing thinking. This then often provokes strong negativity, even hostility."...<br /><br />"All or nothing thinking has a hard time negotiating the delicacies and distinctions of balanced truth, or the the complex interactions of the world of ideas. And many things in our culture fuel this unhealthy cognitive distortion."<br /><br />Worth considering...<br /><br /><br /><br />Pater Ignotusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-48015091961179854852013-03-11T06:56:35.461-04:002013-03-11T06:56:35.461-04:00Oh, and Ignotus, I have never "bullied" ...Oh, and Ignotus, I have never "bullied" you. This is your typical lib tactic of continuing to call names hoping they will stick. Why would I want you to be silenced? People need to see exactly what they are dealing with in regard to the Modernist threat to the Church. Keep talking...please. Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-68275673477834294192013-03-11T06:54:05.811-04:002013-03-11T06:54:05.811-04:00Ignotus, if you remember, I am not the one who ask...Ignotus, if you remember, I am not the one who asked the question. I do not ask questions to which ZI already know the answer.<br />Anon 2, No, I have not attended Mass at Holy Spirit. Why would I? It is not my parish. I attend other Churches when I am out of town or on vacation. Having experienced Kavanaugh on the blog, I have absolutely no desire to experience him in person. So, no, I will not be attending Mass there out of curiosity.Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-53350881838922592442013-03-10T20:59:02.970-04:002013-03-10T20:59:02.970-04:00Gene,
I fail to see the analogy between Chris Mat...Gene,<br /><br />I fail to see the analogy between Chris Matthews defending Obama, on the one hand, and a lay parishioner urging respect for the office of a priest – any priest – on the other.<br /><br />If your question is not an “orthodoxy test,” then what would you call it?<br /><br />Also, I will now ask you a question directly: Have you attended Mass at Holy Spirit when Pater Ignotus was celebrating? Have you even met Pater Ignotus in person? I ask this because the internet and Blogs are so impersonal, and we – our persons – are so much more than our apparent cyber-identities.<br /> <br />Furthermore, as I said, I have no problem with you disagreeing with Pater, or anyone else, on the merits of an issue. I also even accept ad hominem attacks and labeling from you when aimed at me, although I have countered them. I am just asking you not to do that to one of our priests. However, I am just one voice. I suppose if no-one else objects, I stand alone and you can ignore me. But I have said what I felt I had to say.<br /><br />Anonymous 2noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-28958029638875662482013-03-10T19:33:16.948-04:002013-03-10T19:33:16.948-04:00Pin/Gene - I have answered the Real Presence quest...Pin/Gene - I have answered the Real Presence question in previous conversations. <br /><br />And, were I to answer again, due to your attitude toward me, it would never suffice. You consider me to be "dishonest, hypocritical, and arrogant" so, why, in my right mind, would I anticipate that answering again would make any difference whatsoever?<br /><br />And, again, it's not a "simple and direct question." It's your attempt to find some other spurious reason to heap contempt in my direction.<br /><br />So, no, I'm not going to answer this question. You are angry and distrustful of me because you can't bully me. Get used to it.Pater Ignotusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-76736422585040422082013-03-10T18:15:40.973-04:002013-03-10T18:15:40.973-04:00Anon 2,
Ignotus is theologically dishonest, hypocr...Anon 2,<br />Ignotus is theologically dishonest, hypocritical, and arrogant. Certainly, the simple and direct question of belief is not an "orthodoxy test" although, if he were hones, I doubt he could pass one. Any true believer, Priest or not, should have absolutely not problem answering it. This evasive nonsense about protocol or manners is just so much BS. <br />You should ask the question, as I have, why so many on this blog have no confidence in Ignotus' orthodoxy, honesty, devotion, or candor. What does it say about a Priest who sows dissension, anger, and distrust? You sound like Chris Matthews defending Obammy.Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-69899311622521163912013-03-10T13:50:41.290-04:002013-03-10T13:50:41.290-04:00Gene,
Please stop asking/demanding Pater Ignotus ...Gene,<br /><br />Please stop asking/demanding Pater Ignotus about this. It is one thing to ask me as you did early on in my participation on the Blog (and I did answer your question) or Steven Millies (he did not answer your question, despite my urging that he do so just to stop the constant badgering), but it is quite another thing to ask one of our priests. <br /><br />I have no problem with you disagreeing with Pater or disliking what he says but I, for one, think it is inappropriate to administer an “orthodoxy” test to one of our priests publicly on this Blog. When Pater refuses to answer you, as the dignity of his position gives him every right to do (something of which neither I nor Steven could avail ourselves), you want readers to draw the negative conclusion that he must not believe in the Real Presence or the literal Resurrection of Jesus. That is, in my view, unfair and illegitimate.<br /><br />If you want to know whether Pater believes in these fundamentals of the faith, I suggest that you attend Mass at Holy Spirit and make up your own mind. If you have already done that, fine, and you if you still believe he does not believe in these things, then you can ask invite others to do the same and make up their own minds too. If you haven’t attended one of Pater’s Masses, please consider doing so. <br /> <br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Anonymous 2noreply@blogger.com