tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post6909323046524897970..comments2024-03-28T05:17:04.006-04:00Comments on southern orders: A MARRIED PRIESTHOOD, SHOULD WE HAVE IT? HELLO! WE ALREADY HAVE IT!Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-40117843777958289262017-03-18T08:07:50.513-04:002017-03-18T08:07:50.513-04:00So afraid of the expression of sexual love between...So afraid of the expression of sexual love between husband and wife.....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-40946058973401139402017-03-15T20:51:18.262-04:002017-03-15T20:51:18.262-04:00Let me say this, I'd support relaxing the rule...Let me say this, I'd support relaxing the rule on celibacy for Roman clergy, if and only if, the celibate clergy are treated equally as the married clergy. (That is to say, the married clergy should be just as ready to move, as a celibate clergy). I have seen married clergy get preferable assignments to non-celibate clergy. <br /><br />Православный физикhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11313371333531421128noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-53773457101355005852017-03-15T19:37:22.736-04:002017-03-15T19:37:22.736-04:00I am not sure of the status of priestly continence...I am not sure of the status of priestly continence in marriage and/or priestly celibacy in the early Church. I have seen good arguments on both sides of this issue. However, I don't think that affirmations of the need/right to have unrestricted marital intercourse by married priests is compatible with the ancient Church, in which even the laity were expected to refrain from marital intercourse before receiving Holy Communion. Also, the historic ban on priestly remarriage indicates the value of continence among ancient clergy. In fact, even the laity were discouraged from remarriage after the death of their first spouse. I think that these ancient practices point to a Christian emphasis on continence (even in marriage) that would place more value on lifelong priestly continence than our modern ideas regarding the need of continual exercise of the sacramental marital act. Adam Michaelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-22896951943323004412017-03-15T19:21:09.072-04:002017-03-15T19:21:09.072-04:00I understand George's point, but I wouldn'...I understand George's point, but I wouldn't limit the temporal identity of the Church to those elements that are universally practiced (even in the Latin Rite). I have noticed that even traditions like Eucharistic Adoration experienced a progressive development in Church History (e.g. public Eucharistic Exposition once required episcopal permission and perpetual adoration was not parochially practiced). I think that a more consistent definition of the temporal identity of the Church (in her different liturgical rites), is what has been officially approved/promulgated by the Church, not what is interpreted as universal, but was actually limited to one liturgical rite and developed substantially over time.Adam Michaelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-41778655088976247002017-03-15T18:13:13.726-04:002017-03-15T18:13:13.726-04:00Gene,
That's exactly the kind of crap that wo...Gene,<br /><br />That's exactly the kind of crap that would happen. Rood Screenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09816036539243214384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-65575144321080599682017-03-15T07:30:59.785-04:002017-03-15T07:30:59.785-04:00Hey, just keep the celibacy rule on the books, let...Hey, just keep the celibacy rule on the books, let married Priests sleep with their wives, and write it off to "pastoral practice." Genenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-26684824324675503402017-03-14T17:01:41.213-04:002017-03-14T17:01:41.213-04:00John Nolan,
Well said. Further, married men dete...John Nolan,<br /><br />Well said. Further, married men determined to sleep with their wives may continue to do so, since no one is obliged to seek ordination. Rood Screenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09816036539243214384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-36379598086420009112017-03-14T12:48:48.563-04:002017-03-14T12:48:48.563-04:00John Nolan,
Touche!John Nolan,<br /><br />Touche!TJMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-67572405028601564412017-03-14T09:37:53.293-04:002017-03-14T09:37:53.293-04:00Anonymous
So what was practised in the early Chur...Anonymous<br /><br />So what was practised in the early Church was 'a violation of the sanctity of marriage'? They would not have seen it as such, and you cannot project your 21st century opinion back over nearly two millennia. <br /><br />Whether, and to what extent, married priests and deacons in the Latin rite should practise continence, is an issue which is still relevant and is indeed debated by canonists.<br /><br />Anyway, I thought that we should be trying to emulate the Church of the Fathers. Or does this only apply to the liturgy?John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-36239927811248943002017-03-14T08:53:39.737-04:002017-03-14T08:53:39.737-04:00I was at a restaurant/bar with a friend once and t...I was at a restaurant/bar with a friend once and there was a group of Priests at a table near us. They were obviously having a great time, laughing and joking with one another. I said to my friend, "Well, they are certainly happy." He replied, "That's because they don't have women living with them."Genenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-51854296962593360612017-03-14T07:56:27.605-04:002017-03-14T07:56:27.605-04:00"The history is complicated, but well documen..."The history is complicated, but well documented in studies such as Stefan Heid’s Celibacy in the Early Church. Yes, indeed, during the first millennium it was perfectly regular for married men to be ordained deacon or priest, but they had to separate from their wives beforehand. Technically not celibacy, but continence: sexual abstinence by formerly married men. They never pretended they had not been married. Their wives enjoyed status, and their children often followed them into the ministry. The sons, incidentally, could be ordained to minor orders before their teens, up to acolyte." - Fr. Jerome Bertram, "The Catholic Herald," 18 Aug 2016<br /><br />The requirement that husbands and wives "separate" is a violation of the sanctity of marriage, denying to husband and wife that to which they have a natural right. It impedes one of the essential elements of marriage, that being the right the husband and wife have to each other's body and to the enjoyment thereof.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-33179788026345422712017-03-13T20:38:48.963-04:002017-03-13T20:38:48.963-04:00
I think those fundamental features which comprise...<br />I think those fundamental features which comprise the identity of the Catholic Church on earth would be those elements which are practiced and recognized to one degree or another throughout her ecclesiastical realm. The celibate male priesthood would be one of course ( The Anglican Ordinariate and Eastern Rite being the exceptions). The submission to the authority of the Pope would be another. Eucharistic Adoration would be another. <br /> It is to be recognized that there are traditions and devotions which are uniquely part and parcel of individual parishes and dioceses around the world,and are therefor not universally common to the whole Church. In addition, there are those things which are of a purely temporal nature, instituted by the authority of the Church in her capacity to do so, which can be altered or done away with at her discretion. So you have those things which at certain times and places comprise the identity of the Church owing to her being a body comprised of human beings, and those things which will always be part of her identity as a Divinely ordained institution.<br />Georgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05809499822558662728noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-57251530911187060982017-03-13T11:18:31.774-04:002017-03-13T11:18:31.774-04:00I think Adam Michael is on to it. It seemes to me...I think Adam Michael is on to it. It seemes to me that the parishes who need permanent pastors would benefit from a program that would address what a parish should do as a Catholic community such as are outlined in Acts and various Epistles. This would include recruiting priests and working with the seminaries and diocese. <br /><br />In other words the community will be stronger and able to support the priest they finally get rather than simply waiting for one to be delivered. This is how many, if not most, of the TLM communities have been founded the last few years. rcghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09131930849106490711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-73202051539386097302017-03-13T10:21:05.340-04:002017-03-13T10:21:05.340-04:00I think that any permission for non-celibate Catho...I think that any permission for non-celibate Catholic married men to be ordained to the priesthood (even if initially limited) in the Latin Church would eventually be extended and slowly end Latin clerical celibacy, except for religious priests. <br /><br />The current discipline of permitting the ordination of married formerly Protestant ministers looks more like the correction of an unintended mistake (Western Christian men who have a vocation and marry because they are not exposed to the discipline of the Latin Rite, to which they would belong if they were Catholic), rather than the affirmation of a positive choice toward a married priesthood in the Latin Church (e.g. the Anglican Ordinariates does not ordain married men who are not converts). However, any ordination to the priesthood of married men in the Latin Church, no matter how limited, would appear to be an affirmation of the positive good of the married priesthood, rather than an attempt to help converts pursue their vocation, despite the effects of their Protestant background. Adam Michaelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-36952454024217513002017-03-13T10:10:39.335-04:002017-03-13T10:10:39.335-04:00It basically boils down to one word: women.
Up he...It basically boils down to one word: women.<br /><br />Up here in Atlanta, we had two Episcopal priests (Thad Rudd and David Dye) who became Catholic in or about 1989 after the election of a woman bishop (Barbara Harris) in the Episcopal Church. Both (understandably) opposed woman bishops and both in due time were ordained as Catholic priests. Father Rudd was in the late 1980s rector (the Episcopal term for "pastor") at Atlanta' Church of our Saviour, the traditional "high church" parish in the Episcopal Diocese of Atlanta, so it was not much of a leap for him to become Catholic. (He had grown up in northern Indiana, which is more a "high church" area in the Episcopal Church.) Father Dye was an associate at St. Martin in the Fields in Atlanta.<br /><br />But it goes the other way too. In the 1980s, Catholic priest Jerry Hardy up here in Atlanta became an Episcopal priest (though I think he since has returned to the Catholic Church), and I believe down in Savannah, Liam Collins, former Catholic priest, is an associate at Christ Church, the mother Episcopal church in Georgia. I suspect both wanted to marry, so they left Rome.<br /><br />So it comes down to women....<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-53187804212489359242017-03-13T10:00:09.384-04:002017-03-13T10:00:09.384-04:00I think anonymous is confusing personal devotions ...I think anonymous is confusing personal devotions that are sanctioned by the individual and/or the local parish priest and official practices that carry official sanction by the Church as a way to manifest her identity to the world. The former carry no ability to manifest or identify the Catholic Church since they are not universal (by their very nature they are private and highly localized), while the latter serve as the temporal identifying marks of the Catholic Church in the era in which are practiced. Combined with the eternal identity of the Church found in her heavenly doctrine, these temporal traditions (which, when initiated, normally endure throughout the Church's earthly sojourn) comprise the identity of the Catholic Church.Adam Michaelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-64467932148105965122017-03-13T08:59:31.325-04:002017-03-13T08:59:31.325-04:00Adam Michael: "Would potential married Latin ...Adam Michael: "Would potential married Latin clergy do the same when adhering to the Latin tradition of daily Mass?"<br /><br />The highly respected canonist Edward Peters has published convincing arguments that canon law requires continence at all times for all ordained clergy. Including married permanent deacons.<br /><br />A requirement of canon law that our bishops have universally ignored. Just as they have ignored the requirement of canon law that all priests be proficient in Latin.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-25564805803531045482017-03-13T08:39:44.352-04:002017-03-13T08:39:44.352-04:00As Fr. Munn would say as with anyone in a Sacramen...As Fr. Munn would say as with anyone in a Sacramental marriage, the sacramental marital act may be completed at any time except in the church's aisle!Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-38757577193600236612017-03-13T08:23:06.201-04:002017-03-13T08:23:06.201-04:00If the identity of the Church is found in, "....If the identity of the Church is found in, "...the temporal, every-day identity of the Church, which encompasses the totality of her life on the earth." then everything is part of our identity.<br /><br />The plastic statue of Our Lady of La Vang placed, with great devotion, next to the tabernacle by Mrs. Nguyen... the rag-tag image of the Guardian Angels hung in the narthex by Mr. Caruthers in memory of his dog, Tripp... the thread-bare linens contributed at great personal cost 21 years ago my Mrs. Kelly. <br /><br />The identity of the Latin Church does not include purple vestments in Lent, bells at the elevations, or a celibate clergy. These temporal realities come and go, change and change again. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-75375105123044655622017-03-13T08:02:44.857-04:002017-03-13T08:02:44.857-04:00I liked Joe's comment that the Roman Liturgy i...I liked Joe's comment that the Roman Liturgy is more suited for celibate clergy. I know that Orthodox priests refrain from marital relations on the eve of celebrating the Divine Liturgy. Would potential married Latin clergy do the same when adhering to the Latin tradition of daily Mass? Adam Michaelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-49259956863016741422017-03-13T02:46:03.723-04:002017-03-13T02:46:03.723-04:00As one of a few easterns that occasionally comment...As one of a few easterns that occasionally comment here, I'll say what I always say elsewhere, just because the east does it doesn't mean the west should copy it. While I do think it'd open possibilities to those that might have been torn between two vocations...allowed married clergy in of itself won't solve anything. My eparchy is blessed to have more priests than parishes, but I do.nit think it's true of all eparchies. The Roman Liturgy is more suited for a celibate clergy at least to dome degree theologically. It sI think the add age of just because one can do it doesn't mean one should applies perfectly for the Roman church extending ability for married people to be ordained in the Roman church.Православный физикhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11313371333531421128noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-77088297140310743252017-03-12T22:02:55.785-04:002017-03-12T22:02:55.785-04:00FrAJM the men you discuss in your OP are exception...FrAJM the men you discuss in your OP are exceptional and, therefore, very few in number even compared to celebate priests. I don't think this would help at all. The anecdotal push is that the Traditional groups have a higher proportion of priestly candidates. It seems that the answer would be to encourage those groups rather than supress or threaten them. A few years ago the talk in our diocese was the number of young priests coming from economically under developed countries, e.g. India. As a matter of fact, the parish geographically closest to me has two such priests and they manage at least two parishes. rcghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09131930849106490711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-10416080234043046442017-03-12T21:36:28.812-04:002017-03-12T21:36:28.812-04:00"That which is not Traditional cannot be part..."That which is not Traditional cannot be part of the identity of the Church since these things can and do and have changed."<br /><br />I am not sure this is fully correct. I think we have to make a distinction between the eternal identity of the Church, which is limited to the essentials of the Church's faith, and the temporal, every-day identity of the Church, which encompasses the totality of her life on the earth. This is analogous to the identity of the Church as the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ. Just as Christ is fully divine and fully human, the Church as His Mystical Body, has an identity that is divine (her Tradition) and human (her traditions). And just as Christ's human nature was without sin, the Church's traditions can never be viewed as sinful (cf: Council of Trent, Session 22, Canon 7). I believe this understanding of the relationship between Holy Tradition and the Church's venerable traditions explains the Church's historically conservative attitude toward reformist and renovationist movements. <br />Adam Michaelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-61409525380347558192017-03-12T21:18:41.639-04:002017-03-12T21:18:41.639-04:00Historically, the Church has not strongly emphasiz...Historically, the Church has not strongly emphasized the difference between "Tradition" and "tradition." Yes, technically, the Church can change her traditions. However, the Church has never sought to make this division clearly at all times. The main people who tend to become concerned with this division are those who want to replace the traditions of their forefathers with new traditions that they prefer. And this movement of replacement is often joined with confusion, loss of faith, and general blandness throughout the Church. It is better to stick with the traditions that nurture faith, not with their replacements that often do the opposite.<br /><br />"It is more than a bit of a stretch, I think, to say that vestment colors and the use of bells have been accomplished under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit."<br /><br />I have often wished the same uncertainty of the Holy Spirit's action would be admitted by the supporters of the reforms that replaced the traditions of the Latin Rite with modern innovations. <br /> Adam Michaelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-57111457940801214852017-03-12T18:39:35.945-04:002017-03-12T18:39:35.945-04:00"married apostles lived in perpetual continen..."married apostles lived in perpetual continence" Source?<br /><br />Tradition and tradition are two different things. The color of vestments and the use of bells, while traditional, is not Traditional. That which is not Traditional cannot be part of the identity of the Church since these things can and do and have changed.<br /><br />It is more than a bit of a stretch, I think, to say that vestment colors and the use of bells have been accomplished under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com