tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post6655666932507392534..comments2024-03-28T20:30:10.681-04:00Comments on southern orders: GRIEF MAKES PEOPLE DO DUMB THINGS! WHAT A CATHOLIC PRIEST CAN AND CANNOT CONTROL IN THIS REGARD!Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-18068265706993663382016-10-30T13:34:04.165-04:002016-10-30T13:34:04.165-04:00Fr. Kavanaugh,
For the reasons I've already m...Fr. Kavanaugh,<br /><br />For the reasons I've already mentioned above. Rood Screenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09816036539243214384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-70115713124493428462016-10-29T10:02:37.426-04:002016-10-29T10:02:37.426-04:00Dialogue - How does allowing a non-Catholic grievi...Dialogue - How does allowing a non-Catholic grieving family member to place the pall or present the gift "diminish the ritual integrity" of the Funeral Mass?Fr. Michael J. Kavanaughnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-66954761272467968292016-10-29T09:17:26.241-04:002016-10-29T09:17:26.241-04:00Father Kavanaugh,
Believe it or not, we all want ...Father Kavanaugh,<br /><br />Believe it or not, we all want to comfort mourners, perhaps even as much as you do, but I see no need to diminish the ritual integrity of the Funeral Mass in the process. Rood Screenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09816036539243214384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-45196771335343378872016-10-28T11:54:58.036-04:002016-10-28T11:54:58.036-04:00I am not sure that is a response to Gene's Poi...I am not sure that is a response to Gene's Pointrcghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00661998350597126663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-39141649816664490292016-10-28T11:29:09.024-04:002016-10-28T11:29:09.024-04:00James - Yes, add the not!
Dialogue - They are gri...James - Yes, add the not!<br /><br />Dialogue - They are grieving spouses, children, parents, friends, etc. <br /><br />Here's another bit of data for the discussion.<br /><br />From the "Introduction to the Order of Christian Funerals":<br /><br />"Funeral rites are to be celebrated for catechumens. In keeping with the provisions of CIC, can. 1183, celebration of funeral rites may also be granted to . . . 2) baptized members of another Church or non-Catholic Ecclesial Community at the discretion of the local ordinary., but not of it is known that they did not wish this nor if a minister of their own is available."<br /><br />Good Fr. McDonald has created an unnecessary paradox with his "mandate." He might celebrate a funeral mass for a non-Catholic Christian, but, given his ill-considered mandate, would refuse to allow the non-Catholic family members to "in any way have a formal participation such as lector or gift bearer" in the liturgy.<br /><br />This is what happens when some people assume too much authority and don't think through the consequences of their misuse of their positions.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Fr. Michael J. Kavanaughnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-52621792545349212512016-10-28T10:21:57.188-04:002016-10-28T10:21:57.188-04:00Father Kavanaugh,
Then what are they? The Latin ...Father Kavanaugh,<br /><br />Then what are they? The Latin for "minister" means "one who provides a service". Granted, such persons are certainly neither clergy nor members of any liturgical order. Rood Screenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09816036539243214384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-61578157031022569472016-10-28T10:00:15.440-04:002016-10-28T10:00:15.440-04:00@Fr. Kavanaugh
Amen to that (but there's a ...@Fr. Kavanaugh<br />Amen to that (but there's a 'not' missing from your penultimate sentence)Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13873507031809422203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-55700805927763881302016-10-28T08:45:54.862-04:002016-10-28T08:45:54.862-04:00Dialogue - Placing a pall on a casket or bring up ...Dialogue - Placing a pall on a casket or bring up the offerings of bread and wine and not "ministries."<br /><br />Gene - The New Testament is anything BUT exclusive. <br /><br />1 In Christ there is no east or west,<br /> in him no south or north,<br /> but one great fellowship of love<br /> throughout the whole wide earth.<br /><br />2 In Christ shall true hearts everywhere<br /> their high communion find;<br /> his service is the golden cord<br /> close-binding humankind.<br /><br />3 Join hands, disciples of the faith,<br /> whate'er your race may be.<br /> All children of the living God<br /> are surely kin to me.<br /><br />4 In Christ now meet both east and west;<br /> in him meet south and north.<br /> All Christly souls are one in him<br /> throughout the whole wide earth.<br /><br />What better source for Divine Revelation can we have but the Presbyterian Hymnal, #317? (The scriptural bases are multiple: Psalm 33:13; Psalm 133:1; Luke 13:29; Acts 10:35; Acts 17:26; Romans 8:14-17; Romans 12:5; 1 Corinthians 12:13; Galatians 3:26-28; Ephesians 4:1-6; Colossians 3:11; James 2:1; 1 Peter 2:17).<br /><br />Notable among these references is Galatians 3:28 "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free person, there is not male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus."<br /><br />No one is suggesting that our denominational differences are serious. The original unity of the Church is a goal that ecumenists continue to work for, since it is the will of Christ. No Catholic ecumenist I know aims for a false irenicism or a muddy syncretism.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Fr. Michael J. Kavanaughnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-48362458108141031812016-10-28T07:45:51.699-04:002016-10-28T07:45:51.699-04:00Father Kavanaugh,
While I haven't said anythi...Father Kavanaugh,<br /><br />While I haven't said anything about sinners, I agree that being a sinner does not prevent exercise of liturgical ministry. One should, however, understand and believe in the ministry one exercises. Rood Screenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09816036539243214384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-31207662603208798642016-10-27T19:25:09.482-04:002016-10-27T19:25:09.482-04:00The Christian Faith and the Catholic Liturgy are e...The Christian Faith and the Catholic Liturgy are exclusivist by their very nature...the very doctrine and theology upon which they are based is exclusive. People like Kavanaugh and others like to read 20th century, enlightenment based philosophy and post Vat II unbelief back into the faith established by Christ and embodied in the Church. You people need to re-read the New Testament.Genenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-56052670457553027122016-10-27T18:15:25.875-04:002016-10-27T18:15:25.875-04:00The Atlanta paper has a lot of obituaries each day...The Atlanta paper has a lot of obituaries each day (I mean, in a metro area of some 6 million people, thousands die up here each month), and it is disgusting to read some who say the ashes of such-and-such will be scattered at sea, scattered on a golf course or back yard, etc, or even spread out over different locations. I think the area is to the point that there are more cremations than burials, even though in this sprawling metro area we're not exactly out of burial space or running low. Then again, we don't usually think of large urban areas being particularly pious (Rome? Paris? London?), do we? Smaller cities and parishes tend to be idolized.<br /><br />My parish has a memorial garden for cremains; I think the cathedral (Christ the King) does too. We also have lay people doing remembrances, sometimes before Mass and sometimes after communion (I did one myself years ago for a deceased father).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-77299959297459868352016-10-27T17:59:49.801-04:002016-10-27T17:59:49.801-04:00Father Kavanaugh, no surprise on your remarks, aft...Father Kavanaugh, no surprise on your remarks, after all, you vote for the Abortion Party, so your views need to be taken with a grain of salt TJMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-63333567444879074462016-10-27T17:17:55.872-04:002016-10-27T17:17:55.872-04:00Dialogue - Everyone who reads at mass is sinful. ...Dialogue - Everyone who reads at mass is sinful. Does the fact that a sinful person proclaims God's Truth have any effect on that Truth? No. <br /><br />Does the fact that a sinner reads the Sacred Scriptures make the reader a liar? No. (This goes for the priests who proclaim the Gospel, too.)<br /><br />If the regular 8:00 a.m. Sunday mass reader is a sinner, is the priest going to mandate the she/she be banned from reading? The answer is, again, No.<br /><br />None of us who participate in the liturgy is does so without some defect, some sin, some failure.<br /><br />The placing of the pall is not a sign of belief in Christian resurrection. I am sure that Fr. McDonald has presided at MANY funerals where the pall is placed by members of the funeral home staff. Does he verify their belief before they participate in this formal way in the ritual? No, he does not.<br /><br />If a person does not believe in God at all, is he/she going to be banned from the Church altogether while the sacrifice of the mass is carried out? If not, are we making that person into a liar simply by allowing them in? <br /><br />Nope.<br /><br />There's no good reason to "mandate" that non-Catholics be banned from participating in appropriate ways in funeral liturgies.Fr. Michael J. Kavanaughnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-53514222395778263972016-10-27T16:23:31.463-04:002016-10-27T16:23:31.463-04:00Jus - What Johnny believes about the importance of...Jus - What Johnny believes about the importance of the gifts is not the point, nor is it, at this juncture, important. <br /><br />Denigrating Johnny's grief, as you are doing, is unsympathetic. Yes, he is FEELING the loss of his mother. Yes, he is FEELING her absence profoundly. Yes he is FEELING sad and, maybe, resentful.<br /><br />But to say that these FEELINGS are to be overlooked simply because he is not a Catholic is really hard-hearted.<br /><br />These FEELINGS are as real as any belief he may have, as any understanding of Catholic beliefs that may be in his mind or his heart.<br /><br />Having a non-Catholic present the gifts at the funeral mass of his/her mother is in no way disrespectful of "our liturgy." <br /><br />I hope that I never become so callous due to an idiosyncratic appreciation of how the liturgy of the Church should be carried out that I would even think of enforcing some such "mandate" in the parish I serve.Fr. Michael J. Kavanaughnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-22817782158718731192016-10-27T16:17:02.778-04:002016-10-27T16:17:02.778-04:00This thread is shocking. There are many things th...This thread is shocking. There are many things the friends and family can do as a part of the funeral process that are appropriate and, frankly, far more meaningful, dignified and less embarrasing than playing at being Catholic over the remains of their relative. I hope all of my non-Catholic friends and relatives will be moved to participate through conversion. rcghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00661998350597126663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-68156984629148717642016-10-27T16:15:54.438-04:002016-10-27T16:15:54.438-04:00Father Kavanaugh,
I assume you would honor the fe...Father Kavanaugh,<br /><br />I assume you would honor the feelings and wishes of those of us who would ask for the traditional Latin Requiem. It certain would promote "inclusiveness" and be a supreme act of mercyTJMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-87091057506018105642016-10-27T16:13:41.219-04:002016-10-27T16:13:41.219-04:00How does someone who does not live by the the Word...How does someone who does not live by the the Word of God stand up and proclaim that very Word to a congregation? Where is the integrity in such a practical lie? <br /><br />How does someone who does not believe in the Sacrifice of Christ present to a priest the congregation's sacrifice, which becomes that of Christ? Where is the integrity in such a practical lie?<br /><br />How does someone who does not believe in Baptism or Christian resurrection present the mortal garb of baptismal resurrection for use on a coffin? Where is the integrity in such a practical lie?<br /><br />We must console mourning non-believers, but we shouldn't make liars out of them. <br />Rood Screenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09816036539243214384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-85793911735017822662016-10-27T15:19:45.221-04:002016-10-27T15:19:45.221-04:00Does Johnny even believe that the gifts being brou...Does Johnny even believe that the gifts being brought forward are important? To him everything in the liturgy is just symbolic. So why not propose some other truly symbolic act for Johnny and spouse to do like drop a rose into a basket or say some words after the final Amen? <br /><br />I get that we feel like we should 'include' non-believers into our rites and that this will somehow make them FEEL good and this feeling will lead them to become Catholics? I get that. And so I propose you don't dilute our liturgical rites for the sake of non-believers but instead create some non-liturgical symbolic gesture of good will that they can participate in since the only point in this exercise is to respect THEIR FEELINGS.<br /><br />OUR FEELINGS, AND OUR LITURGY OF COURSE IS NEVER TO BE RESPECTED Jusadbellumnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-663351648456188872016-10-27T14:31:29.395-04:002016-10-27T14:31:29.395-04:00Jus - There is no good reason to exclude non-Catho...Jus - There is no good reason to exclude non-Catholics from participating in a funeral as lector, gift bearer, or pall placer. <br /><br />I can imagine the scene: Johnny, the only child of the deceased and her care-giver for the last 7 years, was not raised as a Catholic. At the time such decisions are being made, Johnny indicates that he and his equally non-Catholic wife would like to present the gifts during the funeral mass, recalling that his mother had requested such. <br /><br />The priest asks, "Are you and your wife practicing Catholics, Johnny?" "No, Father, we are not." "That being the case, I have mandated that, in this parish, no non-Catholics may have, in any way, formal participation in the funeral liturgy. No, you and your wife are not allowed to present the gifts."<br /><br />There are good reasons why, especially at the time of death, such inclusiveness is both beneficial to the grieving family members and to the local Catholic parish.<br /><br />Johnny, having seen his mother's wishes respected and having been touched by the inclusiveness of the priest and the Catholic parish. leaves thinking, "They are good people and I appreciate their way of doing things."<br /><br />On the other hand, Johnny and his wife, having been barred for no good reason from a simple act of participating in the funeral rite, leave thinking, "What a bunch of you-know-whats those Catholics are."<br /><br /><br /><br />Fr. Michael J. Kavanaughnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-88908199914478750822016-10-27T11:37:10.115-04:002016-10-27T11:37:10.115-04:00• The Church is intolerant in principle because sh...• The Church is intolerant in principle because she believes;<br />she is tolerant in practice because she loves.<br />The enemies of the Church are tolerant in principle because they do not believe;<br />they are intolerant in practice because they do not love."<br />- Rev. Réginald Garrigou-Lagrange, O.P.<br /><br /><br />I think we need to simultaneously use every occasional encounter with non-Catholics as 'occasions of grace' to introduce them to the faith in as tactful and respectful a tone as we can given the circumstances.<br /><br />Sometimes we can't allow them to do things such as partake in Communion. Other times we can make a big deal about "allowing" them some merely symbolic thing. So, the modern practice of 'coming forward for a blessing' is I think a decent and well motivated gesture. It's no harm to our faith and can be moving to non-members to 'join the crowd' shuffling forward.<br /><br />Jusadbellumnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-90698057039732263642016-10-27T11:36:50.310-04:002016-10-27T11:36:50.310-04:00I have never seen any one other than a Catholic re...I have never seen any one other than a Catholic read at Vatican Masses. When there is the Prayer for Christian Unity Even Prayer with the pope, yes, others have taken various ministries who are not Catholic. Could you point out an example at a papal Mass when a non-Catholic preached or was a lector or proclaimed the Gospel????Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-39311396984851350112016-10-27T10:20:32.755-04:002016-10-27T10:20:32.755-04:00Non-Catholics (usually visiting dignatories eg the...Non-Catholics (usually visiting dignatories eg the Archbishop of Canterbury) have read the readings at various Masses including services at the Vatican - and vice versa - so why do you think only Catholics can do so at your parish? Surely, in the example of Pope Francis, we should be showing mercy and a pastoral attitude in such circumstances rather than causing unnecessary division. I would have thought that allowing a non-Catholic spouse / sibling / child to give a reading or bring up the gifts / funeral pall would be an admirable way of them respectfully being included in the funeral service.<br /><br />I think you should re-think your position in light of the pastoral sensitivity encouraged by Pope Francis.Andrew Rexnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-47390511953690458862016-10-27T09:57:57.265-04:002016-10-27T09:57:57.265-04:00We're all going to die. And funerals, plots, a...We're all going to die. And funerals, plots, and coffins are expensive. In fact, the whole idea of 'insurance' and companies was originally designed at least for Christians to help fellow believers handle the funeral expenses that would otherwise crush a typical family. By spreading out the burden, everyone was helped.<br /><br />The other category of life covered by insurance or companies was shipping freight given how the sea is dangerous and one's entire cargo often would get lost. So insurance against catastrophic loss was also created in the Roman era to spread out the economic impact of lost ships.<br /><br />The Knights of Columbus originally started out for this purpose - to provide funeral and life insurance for widows and orphans. <br /><br />Every pastor should promote life insurance via the KofC and encourage parishioners around All Saints and All souls to consider their wills and estate planning both for their loved ones and for their own parish, the local school, and any ministry they might want to leave a legacy gift to.<br /><br />I'm sure there are materials online for parishes to use for this promotion and some of them spell out for family members what sorts of Catholic rites are involved in wakes and funerals etc. including Masses said for the repose of the soul.Jusadbellumnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-18417323565993644552016-10-27T09:45:33.245-04:002016-10-27T09:45:33.245-04:00We simply lose control of cremains. People keep th...We simply lose control of cremains. People keep them for sentimental reasons which I personally believe to be extremely unhealthy. If someone wants something from their loved one as a reminder, maybe a lock of hair. Others keep them for financial reasons, it is cheaper than a burial. I despised this because i was in a parish which had many, many poor African Americans who were determined to make sure they were treated properly in death and who had purchased burial insurance from their local funeral homes precisely for this. <br /><br /> I have never had parishioners keep cremains as a statement against the resurrection. Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-71679298053623682212016-10-27T09:22:24.144-04:002016-10-27T09:22:24.144-04:00How are supposed to explain the Holy Father honori...How are supposed to explain the Holy Father honoring the anniversary of the Reformation? http://www.catholicworldreport.com/Blog/5123/pope_francis_and_martin_luther.aspx<br /><br />ChrisAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com