tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post6506349472485449232..comments2024-03-28T20:30:10.681-04:00Comments on southern orders: THIS IS REALLY A KOOL WAY TO PREVENT SPREADING DISEASE WHEN DISTRIBUTIONG "cOmmunion" IN THE HAND!Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comBlogger57125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-87308558080165673452018-06-10T23:14:49.587-04:002018-06-10T23:14:49.587-04:00Kavanaugh, give it up. You are the original inartf...Kavanaugh, give it up. You are the original inartful dodger and you're past your sell date. Marc and John Nolan are correct. You should move to Germany and join the loser bishops. You would be happy there.TJMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-21655951178151431952018-06-10T15:37:08.656-04:002018-06-10T15:37:08.656-04:00"Well, I guess we can stop discussing this, t..."Well, I guess we can stop discussing this, then, since Mike has now conceded that I’m right.<br /><br />Whatever you think I have conceded, think again.<br /><br />You don't determine what is and what is not the Church's teaching. You can read and accept it or you can read and reject it. You can't determine it. Fr. Michael J. Kavanaughnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-58444413295457794782018-06-10T11:37:39.181-04:002018-06-10T11:37:39.181-04:00What the German bishops are proposing exposes them...What the German bishops are proposing exposes them for what they are - losers. Apparently they can’t articulate and persuade people of the beauty of the Catholic Faith . If a German Protestant believes in the Catholic doctrine of the Real Presence they should convert. Think of the tax dollars the German bishops are leaving on the table!TJMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-32770952187196570312018-06-10T11:13:27.815-04:002018-06-10T11:13:27.815-04:00Well, I guess we can stop discussing this, then, s...Well, I guess we can stop discussing this, then, since Mike has now conceded that I’m right.Marchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13510317669833026685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-43238504009537402972018-06-10T09:32:01.518-04:002018-06-10T09:32:01.518-04:00"How does "Non-bishop Marc" figure ..."How does "Non-bishop Marc" figure out what the teaching of the Church is under these circumstances?"<br /><br />"Non-bishop Marc" can open his catechism and read in #2390, "The sexual act must take place exclusively within marriage. Outside of marriage it always constitutes a grave sin and excludes one from sacramental communion."<br /><br />(This presumes, of course, that one recognizes the magisterial authority of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. I do. Saint Pope John Paul II wrote, " "The Catechism of the Catholic Church, which I approved June 25th last and the publication of which I today order by virtue of my Apostolic Authority, is a statement of the Church's faith and of catholic doctrine, attested to or illumined by Sacred Scripture, the Apostolic Tradition, and the Church's Magisterium. I declare it to be a sure norm for teaching the faith and thus a valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial communion.") <br /><br />I can't find the German bishops' proposal in English. The news reports indicate that the proposal would be exceptional and allowed only under certain conditions. Without the text I'm not sure what these conditions might be.Fr. Michael J. Kavanaughnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-81165845693765352342018-06-09T18:20:26.357-04:002018-06-09T18:20:26.357-04:00Fr. Michael J. Kavanaugh said... "No, we cann...<i>Fr. Michael J. Kavanaugh said... "No, we cannot evaluate doctrinal assertions 'objectively' because there is always, in matters of what is and is not the Church's teaching, the very subjective involvement of the Bishops who possess the charism to teach."</i><br /><br />The German bishops possess "the charism to teach." <br /><br />When they state that it is <b>permissible</b> for a Catholic to receive Holy Communion, even if that Catholic is divorced, remarried, and living in a conjugal relationship with the second putative spouse while the first spouse is still living, are the German bishops teaching Catholic orthodoxy?<br /><br />The Polish bishops possess the exact same "charism to teach" as the German bishops.<br /><br />When they state that it is <b>impermissible</b> for a Catholic to receive Holy Communion if that Catholic is divorced, remarried, and living in a conjugal relationship with the second putative spouse while the first spouse is still living, are the Polish bishops teaching Catholic orthodoxy?<br /><br />How does "Non-bishop Marc" figure out what the teaching of the Church is under these circumstances?DJRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18028761850444888285noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-4559467443831612482018-06-09T08:49:57.925-04:002018-06-09T08:49:57.925-04:00I “refuse... to follow the Rome of neo-Modernist a...I “refuse... to follow the Rome of neo-Modernist and neo-Protestant tendencies which became clearly manifest during the Second Vatican Council and, after the Council, in all the reforms which issued from it.”Marchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13510317669833026685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-80030585494426029832018-06-08T13:45:31.334-04:002018-06-08T13:45:31.334-04:00"It follows that for Vatican II to have magis..."It follows that for Vatican II to have magisterial authority, it must restate what the Church previously taught."<br /><br />This is not correct.<br /><br />Multiple councils - probably all of them - have done far, far more than merely "restate" what was said at previous Council. They have refined, expanded, and developed doctrines. <br /><br />While Marc sees Unitatis Redentigratio as a repudiation of earlier doctrine, a break in continuity if you will, the Church sees as an expansion in continuity with earlier doctrine.<br /><br />Marc will say that he disagrees with this assessment. Marc will say there is a contradiction. Narc will say that others agree with him. That's his prerogative.<br /><br />I will say that, because the Church through its Magisterium has said that Unitatis Redentigratio is in continuity with earlier teaching, I will stick with those whose charism it is to teach the faith.Fr. Michael J. Kavanaughnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-13920994530854122502018-06-08T11:00:00.664-04:002018-06-08T11:00:00.664-04:00"Marc does indeed have the competency to tell..."Marc does indeed have the competency to tell us what he has been taught..."<br /><br />No doubt about that whatsoever.<br /><br />"If a person hears a statement and tells us that it differs from another we can test to see if what he says is true."<br /><br />Maybe. The person who hears may THINK it differs - he/she may be wrong. <br /><br />As to "testing" - another maybe. If that is a matter of chemistry, plate tectonics, or the capacity of genes to be the bearers of inheritable information, etc., yes.<br /><br />If it is a matter of what constitutes the teaching of the Church, that capacity belongs to the bishops.<br /><br />If a non-Bishop says "The Church teaches that participation in worship with Protestants is a violation of the First Commandment" and the Church's magisterium says, "No, it is not" it is the magisterium that holds sway.<br /><br />No, we cannot evaluate doctrinal assertions "objectively" because there is always, in matters of what is and is not the Church's teaching, the very subjective involvement of the Bishops who possess the charism to teach.<br /><br />Fr. Michael J. Kavanaughnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-91039723844002750102018-06-08T10:42:11.542-04:002018-06-08T10:42:11.542-04:00"Not you, not me, not Marc, nor anyone else c..."Not you, not me, not Marc, nor anyone else can define the faith."<br /><br />This is where everyone agrees. Where I disagree with you is your supposition that we cannot <i>know</i> what the teaching is. In point of fact, we can know precisely what the Church teaches are there are myriad resources available for just that purpose.<br /><br />The divergence manifests itself practically in the question of the magisterial authority of Vatican II. Since we know that the Church cannot propose X teaching and then subsequently propose not-X teaching, we are able to take the Church's teaching at some specific point in time and hold to that teaching without fear of having that teaching later held to be incorrect. <br /><br />It follows that for Vatican II to have magisterial authority, it must restate what the Church previously taught. If anything in Vatican II does not restate what the Church previously taught, then it lacks magisterial authority. <br /><br />By holding to the teachings of the Church as they were clearly expressed prior to Vatican II, I am necessarily holding to the teachings of the Church post-Vatican II because, again, there can be no contradiction, at least at a magisterial level.<br /><br />What Mike suggests, though, is that I must "accept" Vatican II or else I am defining the faith for myself. Implicit in this argument is that Vatican II taught something that must be accepted and that I am not believing if I hold to the pre-Vatican II teachings. But, for the reasons stated above, that cannot be the case. <br /><br />Since Mike is relying on an argument (to varying extents) from authority based on the comments of the person involved in the discussions with the SSPX, it would seem to make just as much sense to do, as I do, and rely on people involved in those same discussions: the SSPX theologians.<br /><br />"I have learned things here and I hope you have as well. Our discussions have given me greater understanding of some things and I hope you have gained that too."<br /><br />I echo this sentiment, and I am glad to see this written. These discussions are edifying and helpful for me in clarifying my understanding of the Church's teaching. And I find them enjoyable too!Marchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13510317669833026685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-68658761160173780282018-06-08T10:15:40.944-04:002018-06-08T10:15:40.944-04:00Kavanaugh is slowly morphing into MT, cutting and ...Kavanaugh is slowly morphing into MT, cutting and pasting lots of non sequiturs and dodging the real issue at hand. LOLTJMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-30574768989753263712018-06-08T09:15:23.257-04:002018-06-08T09:15:23.257-04:00DJR - I never suggested that Ocariz was part of th...DJR - I never suggested that Ocariz was part of the Magisterium. <br /><br />None of us here are part of the Magisterium. However, that does not mean that our discussions or our opinions or our "bombshells" are "quite useless." (Well, the "bombshells" are, but I digress...) I have learned things here and I hope you have as well. Our discussions have given me greater understanding of some things and I hope you have gained that too.<br /><br />We are all seeking understanding. Personally I look to people like Ocariz, who is a consultor for the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith, the prelate of Opus Dei, and who has been involved mightily in discussion with the SSPX, to bring insight and wisdom to discussions. He simply knows WAY more than any of us. And yes, his views on Vatican Two have far, far greater value than Marc's, yours, or mine.<br /><br />The very question we are engaged in here - the Magisterial authority of Vatican Two - is what Ocariz and the SSPX have been working on. <br /><br />But if you or anyone else says "Well, he's not "the Magisterium" and, therefore, anything anyone who is not "the Magisterium" says is "quite useless," then all of us non-magisterial types ought to cease posting immediately. But I don't think that's what you want, is it?<br /><br />The Cult of Individualism is alive and well in the Church. We have failed to be the community we are meant to be. We see ourselves as "Persons of God" rather than "People of God" and that to our great detriment. Fr. McDonald speaks of its expression in "congregationalism" and I have often cited the book "Habits of the Heart" as a way of understanding this societal/cultural blight. Not you, not me, not Marc, nor anyone else can define the faith. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Fr. Michael J. Kavanaughnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-57712643455415363142018-06-08T08:54:06.487-04:002018-06-08T08:54:06.487-04:00FrMJK, Marc does indeed have the competency to tel...FrMJK, Marc does indeed have the competency to tell us what he has been taught, or what he percieves he has been taught. He might be wrong; he shares that frailty with every other human including the Pope and those people assigned the duty to teach. If a person hears a statement and tells us that it differs from another we can test to see if what he says is true. It does not mean that he, Marc, is determing Church teaching. Even if he seems a little bossy about it we know that he is not speaking ex Cathedra so no matter how firm his position we can evaluate it objectively. On the other hand we find many clergy spouting nonsense or even heresy when they find themselves carried away by by the moment. So simply stating that what Fr. X has said differs from Church teaching does not mean the layman is assuming to establish that teaching. rcghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09131930849106490711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-46160603345423496092018-06-07T20:44:06.359-04:002018-06-07T20:44:06.359-04:00Fr. Michael J. Kavanaugh said... From Msgr. Ferna...<i>Fr. Michael J. Kavanaugh said... From Msgr. Fernando Ocariz (Osservatore Romano, December 2011). "Since it was an ecumenical council, meeting and promulgating its acts to the whole Church under the authority of the Pope, the Second Vatican Council’s doctrinal sentences demand assent in the following ways..."</i><br /><br />1. Monsignor Ocariz is not the Magisterium, so his opinions about Vatican II are worth no more than Marc's.<br /><br />2. Nowhere has the Magisterium told anyone what the "doctrinal sentences" of the Second Vatican Council actually are, so Monsignor Ocariz's opinion on the matter is quite useless.DJRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18028761850444888285noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-3304073789091865252018-06-07T18:48:31.394-04:002018-06-07T18:48:31.394-04:00From OnePeterFive.com:
"First, the ordinar...From OnePeterFive.com: <br /><br />"First, the ordinary magisterium is exercised only by the whole Church in its state of being dispersed throughout the world for the quite simple and obvious reason that the teaching of popes and ecumenical councils are necessarily formal and explicit acts of teaching formulated in public documents of the supreme magisterium (which is exactly what the teaching of the ordinary magisterium is not)."<br /><br />Also<br /><br />Vatican I states: “All those things are to be believed with divine and Catholic faith that are contained in the word of God, written or handed down, and which by the Church, either in solemn judgment or through her ordinary and universal magisterium, are proposed for belief as having been divinely revealed” (Dei Filius, Denz. 3011).Fr. Michael J. Kavanaughnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-29920985405908137092018-06-07T17:58:04.576-04:002018-06-07T17:58:04.576-04:00From Msgr. Fernando Ocariz (Osservatore Romano, De...From Msgr. Fernando Ocariz (Osservatore Romano, December 2011) <br /><br />Since it was an ecumenical council, meeting and promulgating its acts to the whole Church under the authority of the Pope, the Second Vatican Council’s doctrinal sentences demand assent in the following ways: <br /><br />1. Whenever the Council teaches something about faith and morals, what it teaches is certainly true, either through the specific note of infallibility or from the religious submission of mind and will owed to the ordinary Magisterium. <br /><br />2. If such a teaching on faith or morals appears to anyone to conflict with earlier teachings, the problem is not with the truth of the Council’s statement but with our understanding of the Church’s full teaching of which the Council’s statement is inescapably a part. <br /><br />3. Proper method demands that an understanding of the matter in question be found that accepts the truth of all relevant statements. Later statements can be illuminated by earlier ones and earlier statements can be illuminated by later ones, until a more complete and precise understanding is formed. <br /><br />4. Where the Council was not teaching on matters of faith and morals, such as where it was describing contemporary conditions or offering recommendations for renewal, its statements are to be received with respect and gratitude but are not necessarily flawless in either their factual accuracy or their prudential judgment. <br /><br />5. It follows that any arguments which undermine this understanding, whether based upon the pastoral interests of the Council or any other factor, are specious.<br /><br />For consideration: "Assessing Vatican II: A Response to My Critics" https://www.crisismagazine.com/2013/assessing-vatican-ii-a-response-to-my-critics <br />Fr. Michael J. Kavanaughnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-64430899609501661642018-06-07T17:53:36.217-04:002018-06-07T17:53:36.217-04:00The answer to MJK's question is 'nowhere&#...The answer to MJK's question is 'nowhere', closely followed by 'so what?'<br /><br />I didn't introduce the term 'methodology'. It can't include convergence or compromise and if it means simply stressing the many beliefs held in common by Catholics and Protestants while glossing over real doctrinal differences, it's not much use.<br /><br />Cardinal Woelki is correct in declaring that Catholic and Lutheran concepts of the Eucharist are incompatible. No amount or workshops, seminars and training courses can square that particular circle or undo the Reformation.<br /><br /><br /><br /> <br /><br />John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-21629716175651127582018-06-07T16:46:31.628-04:002018-06-07T16:46:31.628-04:00"My claim is that The Decree on Ecumenism is ..."My claim is that The Decree on Ecumenism is a magisterial document from the Second Vatican Council."<br /><br />That's your claim. But you can't point to a magisterial teaching that asserts the magisterial nature of that document because (1) no such document exists, and (2) even if it could, your argument is that it is not possible to know what is magisterial in the first place.<br />Marchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13510317669833026685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-25121054633746547152018-06-07T16:32:27.769-04:002018-06-07T16:32:27.769-04:00DJR, with Kavanaugh you must realize "It is H...DJR, with Kavanaugh you must realize "It is HIS opinion, THUS it is a fact!"TJMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-12241900850858496052018-06-07T16:30:33.630-04:002018-06-07T16:30:33.630-04:00Hey Kavanaugh,
Here is what YOUR party is up to i...Hey Kavanaugh,<br /><br />Here is what YOUR party is up to in Maryland!!! Enjoy:<br /><br />https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/jun/7/maryland-gubernatorial-candidate-kisses-his-husban/<br /><br />You are opposed to right-wingers, you will enjoy this too!TJMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-41662426357440712802018-06-07T15:40:51.044-04:002018-06-07T15:40:51.044-04:00DJR you say "Father, of course, the glaring f...DJR you say "Father, of course, the glaring fallacy in the above statement is that it is merely your opinion that the Magisterium of the Church says what you claim it says."<br /><br />My claim is that The Decree on Ecumenism is a magisterial document from the Second Vatican Council. <br /><br />I don't know that any Council ever said "This, our document, is entirely in continuity with every preceding document authoritatively taught by the Church on this subject."<br />Fr. Michael J. Kavanaughnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-85160396209931033362018-06-07T15:16:53.998-04:002018-06-07T15:16:53.998-04:00Presider Mike, as DJR aptly points out, your logic...Presider Mike, as DJR aptly points out, your logic is flawed. I can add nothing to his succinct rebuttable of your untenable position. <br /><br />It is humorous to watch you chop logic so incoherently in an effort to make a point, though. Do you want to give it yet another try? Marchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13510317669833026685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-42695620738509510842018-06-07T15:04:45.972-04:002018-06-07T15:04:45.972-04:00John Nolan, I ask again, "Where is "conv...John Nolan, I ask again, "Where is "convergence" stated as the methodology of the ecumenical dialogue?"<br /><br />You'll not find it in the Church's own ecumenical documents, nor would you encounter it at the workshops, seminars, training sessions I have attended. <br /> <br />SO, where do you get the idea that Catholic ecumenism is seeking "convergence?"<br /><br />And as a man of education, you know very well that workshops, seminars, training sessions can and often do produce far more than verbiage. They can produce understanding, they can encourage further exploration and learning, they can become the catalyst for monumental changes. (You'll recall that little governmental workshop known as the Continental Congress (1774-1789) and the changes that arose from the seminars the delegates attended on 'How to Run Your Own Country,' and 'How to Free Oneself From a Tyrant.')Fr. Michael J. Kavanaughnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-62430056731690475272018-06-07T14:54:05.205-04:002018-06-07T14:54:05.205-04:00Fr. Michael J. Kavanaugh said... Who, and by what ...<i>Fr. Michael J. Kavanaugh said... Who, and by what authority, determines what is or is not a "deviation?" Is The Decree on Ecumenism a "deviation" from previous statements, such as Mortalium Animos, on the question? I say it is not because the magisterium of the Church says it is not. Marc says it is because Marc says it is.</i><br /><br />Father, of course, the glaring fallacy in the above statement is that it is merely your opinion that the Magisterium of the Church says what you claim it says.<br /><br />The Magisterium has made no pronouncement on whether the two documents you mention above can be reconciled, and you're not the Magisterium, so you are not competent to say whether it can.<br /><br />So, you're in the same boat as Marc. You say it is not because you say it is not.DJRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18028761850444888285noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-8059758270079626022018-06-07T14:54:01.023-04:002018-06-07T14:54:01.023-04:00Marc - No, you do not believe all that the Church ...Marc - No, you do not believe all that the Church teaches. You believe all that YOU THINK or that YOU WANT TO BELIEVE the Church teaches.<br /><br />On this thread you have rejected the Church's teaching that ecumenism is an essential aspect of the Church's nature. Your words, "You heard it here first, folks. According to Presider Mike, ecumenism is an essential aspect of the Church's nature. Somehow that "essential aspect" didn't manifest itself until the middle of the 20th century." (It is the Church's teaching that ecumenism is and essential aspect of the Church's nature.)<br /><br />In another recent post you declared that the Church teaches it is a sin against the First Commandment to join with Protestants in worship. (This is not the Church's teaching.)<br /><br />Both of these positions are false. Ecumenism is an essential aspect of the Church's natures and worshipping with Protestants is not a sin against the First Commandment .<br /><br />Then, you tidily finish off your rejection of the Church's teaching with, "So, no, I do not and will not accept it (Decree on Ecumenism) or any of the Vatican II and post-Vatican II ideas. I do not and will not attend the Novus Ordo "Mass" nor will I allow my children to do so."<br /><br />YOU become the one who determines what the Church teaches, having never been given the gift, the necessary charism, to determine such.<br /><br />I'll rely on the Church - you can continue to rely on yourself.Fr. Michael J. Kavanaughnoreply@blogger.com