tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post6485170531351646032..comments2024-03-28T20:30:10.681-04:00Comments on southern orders: JUST SUBSTITUTE MY HEAD AND IT COULD BE ME OR ANY PRIEST CELEBRATING THE EF MASS AT SAVANNAH'S CATHEDRALFr. Allan J. McDonaldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comBlogger51125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-73064331880164232952016-08-22T07:33:04.260-04:002016-08-22T07:33:04.260-04:00George, there was a perfect storm that caused the ...George, there was a perfect storm that caused the development of a superior result. I do not think that other forms are incapable of similar functionality but the efforts need to be constructed from the ground up for that purpose and not laminated on to the Liturgical music like a decoration or even worse in an attempt to 'reach' a certain segment of people. Nothing segregates more effectively than inclusion. rcghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00661998350597126663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-29520307831446570492016-08-21T19:28:08.574-04:002016-08-21T19:28:08.574-04:00
rcg:
Certainly there are some worthwhile elements...<br />rcg:<br />Certainly there are some worthwhile elements and qualities in music of other idioms and cultures. The popular music within our own culture has within it some nice and inspired melodies. Still, by so many different objective measures, Western Classical music stands far above any other form.In this I agree with John Nolan.Georgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05809499822558662728noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-65388457764743003102016-08-21T16:25:44.343-04:002016-08-21T16:25:44.343-04:00Anon at 3:21, that would be a problem if I was pre...Anon at 3:21, that would be a problem if I was presuming to determine the entertainment factor. Most of the musical ministers will freely self identify that they are trying to insert 'music people like' into Mass and give very little thought to the lyrics beyond a catch phrase or two.rcghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09131930849106490711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-4156668997830551432016-08-21T15:21:26.373-04:002016-08-21T15:21:26.373-04:00rcg says: "As much as I love this sort of thi...rcg says: "As much as I love this sort of thing, perhaps because I love it, I am among the first to complain about the use of music that mixes entertainment rather than inspiration with worship."<br /><br />It seems to me that your assumption here is that what YOU consider to be entertaining and what YOU consider to be worshipful/inspirational should be the universal norm, that everyone is going to agree with your categories.<br /><br />I think that that might pose a bit of a problem.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-39203319798261186262016-08-21T11:00:38.605-04:002016-08-21T11:00:38.605-04:00George
From the website of the Bach Collegium Jap...George<br /><br />From the website of the Bach Collegium Japan.<br /><br />'The music of JS Bach is part of the joint patrimony of mankind. Ever since the foundation of Bach Collegium Japan we have continued to convey Bach's music from Japan out to the wider world'.<br /><br />Where does this leave those who claim that no one form of music can be better than another? In a swamp of cultural relativism, made worse by a feeling that somehow their own culture on which they have turned their backs might, just might, in certain aspects have an inherent superiority.<br /><br />When it comes to music, the achievement of Western culture is vastly superior to any other on a number of counts, most of which are easily demonstrable using standard critical tools.<br /><br />And it happened because Gregorian chant, in itself a perfection of text-driven monodic melody which far transcends folk music, after many centuries of oral tradition was actually notated. This led to polyphony and the rest is history.<br /><br />John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-29663434408004238542016-08-20T20:34:01.932-04:002016-08-20T20:34:01.932-04:00John Nolan:
"Western classical music, which ...John Nolan:<br /><br />"Western classical music, which of course includes Gregorian chant and could not have come into being without it, has a world-wide resonance."<br /><br />I was once in a conversation with a person who was born and raised in China and had immigrated to the U.S. This person's music of choice (though having grown up in a culture which was quite alien to ours) was Western classical music. <br />There are disciplines, such as science, mathematics and engineering, which by their nature are universal, with principles and methods the same world-wide, although they may differ in application. I see music as being the same.<br />I do find it interesting that there are places in the world which have incorporated inculturation into the liturgy, that also at the same time have imported the worst excesses of Western entertainment into their local cultures.<br />Georgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05809499822558662728noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-81014197529321421832016-08-20T16:30:47.308-04:002016-08-20T16:30:47.308-04:00Anon 1:47, I will see what academic references I c...Anon 1:47, I will see what academic references I can find and post them. My exposure to it has been through my own musical training and the study of folk sources as varied as Mali, Bulgar, Tannu Tuva, and Carnatic. Although the scales, pitches, and micro tones make the music seem exotic exciting similarities can be found that universally convey 'happy' or 'sad' themes. What is most interesting is when near matches in specific melodies appear identified with complex emotions such as bitter-sweet contemplative thoughts revealing the emotional state that is commonly felt by humans in similar circumstances. <br /><br />As much as I love this sort of thing, perhaps because I love it, I am among the first to complain about the use of music that mixes entertainment rather than inspiration with worship. rcghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00661998350597126663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-57891278013091239502016-08-20T13:47:10.977-04:002016-08-20T13:47:10.977-04:00"Musical modes are linked to specific emotion..."Musical modes are linked to specific emotions and thoughts regardless of cultures."<br /><br />This is an interesting thought, but is there evidence to support it? Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-24291084906293815612016-08-20T13:00:48.733-04:002016-08-20T13:00:48.733-04:00There may be objective standards of beauty with va...There may be objective standards of beauty with variations for personal preferences among archetypes. Some functional differences may be accomplished in an artistic manner but that does not change their respective function: a beautiful hammer is not an ugly screwdriver. Musical modes are linked to specific emotions and thoughts regardless of cultures. The human brain percieves patterns quickly and can see when they are broken. All cultures use the patterns even if they use different modes, tones, and scales. rcghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00661998350597126663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-19120841678953252712016-08-20T12:27:36.797-04:002016-08-20T12:27:36.797-04:00Fr Kavanaugh
Inculturation as understood by the C...Fr Kavanaugh<br /><br />Inculturation as understood by the Church means that adaptations may be made to the Roman Liturgy which reflect the traditions, including the musical heritage, of other cultures - provided that such adaptations are applied prudently and maintain the integrity of the rite. It does not mean that we import the traditions of other cultures and apply them to the liturgy here. Both John Paul II and Benedict XVI explicitly condemned 'multiculturalism' as it is understood in Western liberal circles.<br /><br />Yet inculturation became an ideological shibboleth and a guiding principle to a certain type of post-V2 'liturgist'. They were not in the least interested in preserving the integrity of the Roman liturgy, in fact the more varied and fragmented it was, the better. They even imposed an informal vernacular liturgy in the modern Western style on Japan, choosing to ignore the fact that it is alien to Japanese culture which is highly formal and ritualistic.<br /><br />Western classical music, which of course includes Gregorian chant and could not have come into being without it, has a world-wide resonance. The connection between Gregorian chant and the Roman liturgy implicit in the word 'proprius' is a historical fact and is not alterable even for those who (erroneously) see the liturgy as something purely functional and man-made, subject to alteration at will. You might as well try to alter the outcome of the Battle of Hastings.<br /><br /><br /><br />John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-18065418331196478322016-08-20T11:20:30.861-04:002016-08-20T11:20:30.861-04:00TJM - You say "Mastery of composition or play...TJM - You say "Mastery of composition or playing an instrument is something that can be measured objectively."<br /><br />So, using that objective measurement, who was the more proficient composer, Bach or Beethoven?<br /><br />And using that objective measurement, who is the better violinist, Hilary Hahn or Joshua Bell?<br /><br />Now you,in your Palestrina/Haugen example, are comparing apples to oranges. Haugen was not attempting to compose as Palestrina composed. This false comparison is akin to saying that the Lego bridge built by a 10 year old does not exhibit the "supreme skill" in bridge building that we find in the Brooklyn Bridge.<br /><br />Well, no, it doesn't. But the comparison is not apt.<br /><br />Fr. Michael J. Kavanaughnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-11097602930518173872016-08-20T08:50:52.667-04:002016-08-20T08:50:52.667-04:00John - That phrase sounded quite different in my h...John - That phrase sounded quite different in my head when I wrote it. The internal emphasis made it clear to me that Gregorian chant does have its place in the liturgy.<br /><br />'Proper to the Roman liturgy' can be time conditioned. We're not talking about divine revelation, about divine Truth, so we're not talking about the unalterable here.<br /><br />I think you, and all of us, should be open to the inculturation that comes with Catholics from southern India, from Japan, from central Africa, from Micronesia, etc. "Catholic" means way, WAY bigger than Rome, and I don't think that the descriptive "Roman" can change the true nature of "Catholic."Fr. Michael J. Kavanaughnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-61894102977261403662016-08-20T08:50:07.429-04:002016-08-20T08:50:07.429-04:00Father Kavanaugh,
Maybe even you will understand ...Father Kavanaugh,<br /><br />Maybe even you will understand this:<br /><br />Mastery of composition or playing an instrument is something that can be measured objectively, unless,like you, nothing can persuade because all comes down to personal taste, no matter how ignorant, parochial, or callous the listener is (that would fit many bishops and priests). Gregorian chant and Bach or Palestrina polyphony represent supreme skill in composition and when executed properly is appealing to almost all sentient people and cultures. Marty Haugen and company don't even come close. When Paul VI was in Africa celebrating Mass he said he never heard the Credo chanted so beautifully and movingly. OF course, left-wing loon folks who favor "inculturation" would deprive them of that. TJMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-71341903998423424532016-08-19T17:19:03.585-04:002016-08-19T17:19:03.585-04:00Fr Kavanaugh
'Gregorian chant may well have i...Fr Kavanaugh<br /><br />'Gregorian chant may well have its place in the Roman liturgy'. Very generous of you to concede this. However, GIRM 2002, from which I quoted, goes a lot further, as does Musicam Sacram 1967, as does Sacrosanctum Concilium 1963. All three specifically say 'first place' and 'proper to the Roman liturgy'.<br /><br />Perhaps you can suggest what 'inculturation' I should be open to, given that my culture is western European, as is yours - unless you are an Irish Red Indian. ('Faniska', for God's sake? I can't see it being revived any time soon, and only the overture has ever been recorded).<br /><br /> John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-10952850684574736552016-08-19T12:09:51.307-04:002016-08-19T12:09:51.307-04:00TJM - No, you haven't "got it." You ...TJM - No, you haven't "got it." You say there are "objective standards of beauty." I am asking you to use those standards to make determinations on what is more beautiful than another.<br /><br />According to those standards, is Beethoven #3 more beautiful than Faniska, is the Leaning Tower more beautiful than the Eiffel, is Discobolos more beautiful than Alexander the great?<br /><br />John - Gregorian chant may well have its place in the Roman liturgy. I would suggest, however, that part of the genius of the Roman Liturgy is its adaptability, or, we might say, its openness to the music, architecture, style of vesture, etc., that comes from cultures other than Roman and from times other than a particular era.<br /><br />The Church often uses the term "inculturation," as you are well aware, to describe this adaptability. While you might not be open to such, the Church is. Fr. Michael J. Kavanaughnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-78142236346209002412016-08-19T10:10:31.536-04:002016-08-19T10:10:31.536-04:00It's always problematic to talk about objectiv...It's always problematic to talk about objective standards of beauty. Is Bach's B Minor Mass objectively more beautiful than the plainchant Mass IX (Cum jubilo)? Put them side-to-side in the concert hall and Bach would probably win hands down. But in the context of the liturgy for which it was written the thousand-year-old chant version contributes to a higher idea of beauty which Bach, for all his genius and religious fervour, cannot match.John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-85446437802535979512016-08-19T10:02:12.294-04:002016-08-19T10:02:12.294-04:00Father K,
You are comparing apples to apples, I ...Father K,<br /><br />You are comparing apples to apples, I am comparing apples to oranges: Gregorian Chant versus Marty Haugen. <br /><br />St.Pius X, the father of the authentic liturgical movement, is not someone to be dismissed by a priest of the Holy Catholic Church. I get it,if he were espousing the Marty Hagen style of music for Mass, you would be demanding that everyone accept it, just like you want "stare decisis" to preserve the banal OF. Got it. TJMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-16551269445979245442016-08-19T09:29:25.616-04:002016-08-19T09:29:25.616-04:00Fr Kavanaugh
You are of course aware that the Chu...Fr Kavanaugh<br /><br />You are of course aware that the Church holds Gregorian chant to be pre-eminent (principem locum obtineat) not because of its beauty, although it undeniably beautiful, nor because of its antiquity, although it is undeniably ancient, but because it is proper to the Roman Liturgy (utpote Liturgiae romanae proprius). The word 'proprius' means more than 'suitable', for which the Latin would be 'aptus' or 'idoneus'; it carries the strong implication of ownership.<br /><br />The Roman liturgy and the chant developed in tandem; they cannot be separated one from another. The chant belongs to the Liturgy in a way that other styles, even sacred polyphony, do not. It has nothing whatsoever to do with taste which is mere personal preference. John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-13692150992077535062016-08-19T09:14:26.021-04:002016-08-19T09:14:26.021-04:00Fr. MJK: There are no "objective standards o...Fr. MJK: There are no "objective standards of beauty."<br /> <br />Which would explain why the liturgies of progressivist priests are so often lacking in beauty and reverence.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-25821474548498993052016-08-19T09:08:31.862-04:002016-08-19T09:08:31.862-04:00It is a waste of time and effort to argue with a p...It is a waste of time and effort to argue with a progressivist priest... Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-44841850203227998822016-08-19T08:43:22.997-04:002016-08-19T08:43:22.997-04:00TJM - Could you tell us what the "objective s...TJM - Could you tell us what the "objective standards of beauty" are?<br /><br />And having done so, could you use them to determine which is objectively more beautiful, Beethoven Symphony # 3(Eroica) or Cherubini's opera Faniska?<br /><br />Using the same standards, is the Leaning Tower of Pisa more beautiful than the Eiffel Tower?<br /><br />Again, which is objectively more beautiful, the ancient Greek marble statue Discobolos or the ancient Greek marble statue Alexander the Great?<br /><br />Fr. Michael J. Kavanaughnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-91365625680800387842016-08-19T06:38:07.374-04:002016-08-19T06:38:07.374-04:00TJM - St. Pius X cannot define objective standards...TJM - St. Pius X cannot define objective standards of beauty. He can have opinions, but that's what we all can have.<br /><br />There are no "objective standards of beauty." Fr. Michael J. Kavanaughnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-41964151004378307712016-08-18T22:55:50.464-04:002016-08-18T22:55:50.464-04:00Father Kavanaugh,
Dead wrong, as usual. There are...Father Kavanaugh,<br /><br />Dead wrong, as usual. There are objective standards of beauty and to nonchalantly dismiss St.Pius X is very dangerous and arrogance of the highest order - something I've come to expect from "progressives" whose liturgies are "so beautiful" that most folks have fled with their feet.Although not a fan of Hollywood,when they want to portray religious beauty, they just don't go to Marty Haugen, they go to sacred polyphony or gregorian chant and newsflash - they don't use burlap or non-ornamented chasubles. They go for the gold. Sorry Charlie, you're way out in left field.TJMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-1108354569130222482016-08-18T20:06:51.185-04:002016-08-18T20:06:51.185-04:00John - I agree that much is a matter of taste.
...John - I agree that much is a matter of taste. <br /><br />TJM - I do not agree that there are "objective standards of beauty." Palladian symmetry in architecture is very appealing, but so are the free-flowing shapes used by Frank Gehry. Gregorian chant is lovely, so is Corsican chant which incorporates strong Arab/North African sounds.<br /><br />"Tre" may have argued that a particular sound is always and everywhere particularly fitted to the Roman Liturgy - an idea I also do not agree with - but the argument that "this" style of music is always and everywhere "more beautiful" than any other is nonsensical. This is because humans of all times and places have not agreed on standards of beauty and it is humans that create the art - buildings, paintings, sculptures, music, fabrics, etc. <br /><br />There is certainly beauty that comes from the hand of God. I am always astounded by the beauty of embryogenesis, the simple elegance of the DNA double helix, and the human capacity, based on Divine grace, to love one's enemy.<br /><br />Then, we must contend with what Nicholas Stenno, Danish scientist and later Catholic bishop, described as "That Beauty Which Has Not yet been Discovered."<br />Fr. Michael J. Kavanaughnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-86994803055678985112016-08-18T14:33:52.633-04:002016-08-18T14:33:52.633-04:00Fr. Kavanaugh,
Nice to know you have a smattering...Fr. Kavanaugh,<br /><br />Nice to know you have a smattering of Latin in your vocabulary but you failed to address the point I was really making about the hypocrisy of "progressive priests" who spent lots of dough to look humble while jettisoning serviceable and beautiful vestments. Frankly, there are objective standards of beauty. For example, in the realm of sacred music as enunciated by St. Pius X in his Motu Proprio "Tra le Sollecitudini." You might want to bone up on it. I know how much you love papal pronouncements on the Sacred Liturgy and incorporate their teachings in your Masses.TJMnoreply@blogger.com