tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post6024205946364118566..comments2024-03-28T05:17:04.006-04:00Comments on southern orders: I'LL TAKE CONTINUITY OVER RUPTURE IN THE CHURCH ANY DAY, ANY TIME, ANY PLACE!Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-28366144814165400012010-03-14T19:01:42.278-04:002010-03-14T19:01:42.278-04:00Pater,
The Baroque dripping was organic develop...Pater,<br /><br /> The Baroque dripping was organic development over centuries. Would you classify these last few decades as enduring architecture that will inspire us for generations to come? Or will it be torn down in a few decades and replaced and forgotten? Father's appreciation for history is guided and grounded in the right place. If you prefer Lazarus's tomb environment, perhaps Leeds, or Los Angeles Cathedrals are the right place for you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-38383370751214377102010-03-14T18:54:58.060-04:002010-03-14T18:54:58.060-04:00Then the hermeneutic of continuity needs to be enf...Then the hermeneutic of continuity needs to be enfoced. Rules as to Church architecture and prayerful environments must be intoduced or what is there, enforced. It is unacceptable to walk into a Catholic Church and for it to feel like a community center. And in the end these bitter monstosities often cost just as much if not more than renovations of an existing Church or building something as was done in Nebraska. No wonder more than half the Mass going people have stopped going. In my Church after many years I still marvel at the walls, ceiling and beautiful imagery all around me. I find something new to focus on all the time before Mass starts. It should be like this for all Catholics.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-60527770838616525412010-03-03T12:34:58.365-05:002010-03-03T12:34:58.365-05:00Kiwi,
Indeed...I appreciate your comments. NO, I d...Kiwi,<br />Indeed...I appreciate your comments. NO, I don't get it. Just not hip, I guess. GeneGenehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-38262561654221779972010-03-03T11:54:06.204-05:002010-03-03T11:54:06.204-05:00pinanv525:
You're missing something quite fun...pinanv525:<br /><br />You're missing something quite fundamental.<br /><br />The Mass of Pius V promulgated with the Bull "Quo Primum" in 1570 and which was given to the Church "in perpetuity", as well as traditional church architecture are both to be considered esoteric, "personal taste".<br /><br />The new liturgical construct given to us at the end of the swingin' '60s is "Tradition".<br /><br />Black is white and night is day. <br /><br />Get it?<br /><br />Neither do I.kiwiinamericahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03584836925358624544noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-89174094196866191262010-03-03T11:14:54.686-05:002010-03-03T11:14:54.686-05:00Ahhh yes, "rubrics". If only they were o...Ahhh yes, "rubrics". If <i>only</i> they were obeyed.<br /><br /><i>"Ubi Petrus, Ibi Ecclesia"</i>. The Pope's views on the liturgy are far more than "personal taste". Bugnini's hash of a liturgy in violation of Church documents was "personal taste". This was not "evolution". This was <i>revolution</i>. Father Bob's improvisation of the Eucharistic prayers is "personal taste". Ripping out the altar rails is "personal taste". Decorating the sanctuary with balloons and felt banners is "personal taste". Not mine, of course, but somebody's. We know all about "personal taste". We've suffered from the plague of "personal taste" for over 40 years. The Mass as entertainment is "personal taste".<br /><br />I was simply taking your term and pointing out that "personal taste" cuts both ways. We've suffered from it and now the pendulum is swinging the other way. Ironic, no? I didn't hear these wails about "personal taste" when Latin was tossed out the window. It was all about "moving with the times" and "getting with it". Did I miss something?<br /><br />In fact, the term "personal taste" is yours. <i>You</i> labeled Father's views on the liturgy "personal taste". Wrongly, IMHO. His views are right in line with the <i>Tradition</i> of the Church to which we are now returning after a 40 year "silly season".<br /><br />There is a certain ......what shall we say.........<i>karma</i> about all of this. We've been told that Vatican II was all about empowering the laity. Well the empowered laity is now asking for Traditional liturgy and Churches. Not what the "spirit (small "s") of Vatican II crowd had in mind but there ya go.<br /><br />Enjoy!kiwiinamericahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03584836925358624544noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-32690366061272812102010-03-03T11:04:38.246-05:002010-03-03T11:04:38.246-05:00So, Pater, you are arguing for the Tradition? Just...So, Pater, you are arguing for the Tradition? Just how would you define "Tradition?" Is it not fair to say that the TLM, with all of its rituals and gestures that you seem to disdain, is more traditional than some of the latter day abominations we have seen and are still seeing? Would not the new Missal be more truly traditional than what we have? Also, tradition implies continuity...perhaps the real future of the Church lies in recovering its past, or "Tradition.'Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-41980329408578721762010-03-03T08:59:33.327-05:002010-03-03T08:59:33.327-05:00Kiwi: You cannot one the one hand decry "per...Kiwi: You cannot one the one hand decry "personal taste" and then, on the other laud it. <br />No one's personal taste, neither Fr. McDonald's nor Pope Benedict's, is the norm or rule for the liturgy.<br />Too often people confuse the the likes/dislikes of the person holding the office of the pope with the functions of that office.<br />Popes and pastors come and go; the Tradition and the always evolving rubrics endure.Pater Ignotusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-19930922151713321572010-03-03T08:01:19.149-05:002010-03-03T08:01:19.149-05:00When I first converted, I use to think many tradit...When I first converted, I use to think many traditionalist were paranoid. Then several years later I begin to realize that many of the same Priest who detested the TLM and preferred the stripped down Church, also openly supported pro-abortion politicians and told their parishioners at confession that it was ok to practice birth control. Are the freemasons? probably not, but they have allowed themselves to be instruments of the devil.Jody Petermannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-57938819384258788922010-03-02T16:22:07.579-05:002010-03-02T16:22:07.579-05:00Just as in Chemistry or Physics, where a quantitat...Just as in Chemistry or Physics, where a quantitative change, at some threshold, becomes a qualitative change, so in matters of "tatste." At what threshold do changes in "accidents" become changes in essence? Since our architecture and modes of worship are outer reflections of inner states, these questions need to be asked.Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-1818537839647729722010-03-02T15:31:08.845-05:002010-03-02T15:31:08.845-05:00Pater Ignotus: I seem to detect a marked similarit...Pater Ignotus: I seem to detect a marked similarity between Father's "personal taste" and the "personal taste" of the Holy Father so I think he's on the right track. It's a "personal taste" which is also shared by increasing numbers of Catholics.<br /><br />Over time, "personal taste" will in fact, define the shape of the future Church now that the Extraordinary Form is once again available. Those who prefer felt banners, minimalist decor, polyester vestments, banal hymns and churches which do not reflect the gravity of the Sacred Mysteries will be drawn to the increasingly empty hootenanny barns while those who wish to contemplate the Sacred Mysteries and enter ever more deeply into them will be drawn to churches which lend themselves to the contemplation of the Divine.<br /><br />Funnily enough, we've been burdened with the yoke of "personal tastes" in matters liturgical for 4 decades now, after a clique of liturgists foisted a completely new liturgy upon us in <i>blatant</i> violation of the Vatican II documents. <br /><br />As for the Cenacle, I imagine it was indeed lit up by a heavenly light and surrounded by choirs of angles for the institution of the Holy Eucharist. The Cenacle was a simple room because Jesus himself chose it in keeping with His simple life and death. This is an example of the personal <i>humility</i> of Jesus. However, the humility of Jesus should not be confused with disrespect and lack of reverence for the Body and Blood of Christ. Christ humbled <i>Himself</i> but we, in gratitude do not treat Him like some crust of bread to be tossed on a bare wooden bench and consumed in drab and banal surroundings. Christ is King and who would receive a king in wooden outhouse? Baroque candles are the least we can provide for such an inestimable gift.kiwiinamericahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03584836925358624544noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-74912543635120000922010-03-02T14:13:39.481-05:002010-03-02T14:13:39.481-05:00To Pater, I'm very blessed as I believe you to...To Pater, I'm very blessed as I believe you to be blessed in the same fashion in a very traditional church. My home parish in which I grew up, St. Joseph in Augusta, was far from this. It is now the parish hall to a new church building. But when it was a church, there was no mistaking it "catholicity" and the ambiance it had for the Mass up to 1965 and the Mass after 1965. I loved that little Church and found my vocation there. Fr. McDonaldFr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-67183903928607737812010-03-02T14:01:27.128-05:002010-03-02T14:01:27.128-05:00You often confuse, Fr. McDonald, "continuity&...You often confuse, Fr. McDonald, "continuity" with your own personal taste. "De gustibus non est disputandum."<br />One wonders how many drippingly baroque candlesticks were on the table in The Cenacle, or how may winged babies were painted on the ceiling in Lazarus' tomb?Pater Ignotusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-212419065726603572010-03-02T13:48:37.674-05:002010-03-02T13:48:37.674-05:00I too noticed the Masonic hall. Why is it that th...I too noticed the Masonic hall. Why is it that there are so many Catholics who refuse to see and admit the obvious: This has been the basic design used for new church buildings in the "post Vatican II" era. There is no denying the influence of this arrangement. There is no denying the goal of freemasonry. It is up to us to deny them attaining that goal.Robert Kumpelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10567786012498143419noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-997754678508760132010-03-02T11:07:31.409-05:002010-03-02T11:07:31.409-05:00Damian Thompson over at the Daily Telegraph (UK) i...Damian Thompson over at the <i>Daily Telegraph</i> (UK) in an article about the consecration of the new FSSP chapel in the Diocese of Lincoln, Nebraska, has a <a href="http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/damianthompson/100027767/cardinal-levada-prefect-of-cdf-to-preach-at-tridentine-mass-in-new-traditionalist-chapel/" rel="nofollow"> picture </a> which you will just love (scroll down)!!<br /><br />It's a picture of the chapel at Hinsley Hall , the HQ of the Diocese of Leeds. <br /><br />To call it "minimalist" is an understatement.<br /><br />I believe it's based on the "dentists waiting room" model although Damian thinks it takes its inspiration from Scientology. All that's missing is a few magazines on the table.....excuse me......altar!!kiwiinamericahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03584836925358624544noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-85327759894453055492010-03-02T10:21:35.253-05:002010-03-02T10:21:35.253-05:00Ummm... your last picture is that of a Masonic hal...Ummm... your last picture is that of a Masonic hall.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-54817556932533525482010-03-02T10:20:08.787-05:002010-03-02T10:20:08.787-05:00Fr., those abominable pictures of kinky churches, ...Fr., those abominable pictures of kinky churches, or whatever, you are posting are causing me to use swear words. Paul says you are not supposed to tempt a brother to fall. Shame!Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-65038375682945056342010-03-02T09:56:52.497-05:002010-03-02T09:56:52.497-05:00A significant number of devout and doctrinally awa...A significant number of devout and doctrinally aware Protestants are coming to the True Church...most notably, a couple of years ago, one of the premier Lutheran theologians from Chicago and 19 Lutheran seminarians left the Lutheran church and entered Catholic seminaries or simply joined the Catholic Church. I know and communicate with some of these people. Although theological and doctrinal reasons are behind their move, these theological/doctrinal reasons are intimately tied to the fact that Catholic worship embodies both the contemplative and devotional aspects of worship in a way that Protestantism never has been able to fulfill. They all speak of a heightened sense of Presence, the Sacred, and a devotional life they heretofore had never experienced. Most of them also feel that Protestantism, with its inescapable ties to German Idealism and analytical philosophy, can only become more secular, more post-modern, more compromised. None, zero, zilch, are coming to the True Church because of the so-called "Spirit of Vatican II," with its secularizing and egalitarian playing footsie with culture. The "last straw" for many, is the fact that most major Protestant denominations are tacitly supporting abortion, gay marriage, and the ordination of women. This should tell us something if we are willing to listen..like, the Church was right all along!Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-31549169083757977342010-03-02T09:52:51.691-05:002010-03-02T09:52:51.691-05:00Father, where is that second altar picture from? ...Father, where is that second altar picture from? The top is obviously our beloved St. Joseph, but the second is not. It looks lovely.<br /><br />Oh, and the blog is spot on. I've lost count of the friends, and family, who don't even want to engage on the subject. They just put up their hands and shake their heads and say "the Church changed all that", or "that was then". It's hard enough to engage faithful Catholics to convince them that their PoV is one of rupture; it's impossible to try and engage Catholics who don't even understand that they don't even understand!!!Templarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18204866760862707908noreply@blogger.com