tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post5767745254289602938..comments2024-03-28T20:30:10.681-04:00Comments on southern orders: THIS IS A SURE SIGN THAT THERE IS CHAOS IN THE CURIA OF THE VATICAN AS THERE WAS AT THE SYNOD AND SOMEONE HAS FINALLY GOTTEN TO POPE FRANCIS AND ASKED HIM TO PUT A STOP TO IT! I THINK THESE SOMEONES ARE ALSO TELLING THE POPE THAT CHAOS IN THE CHURCH IS HAPPENING UNDER HIS WATCH AND BECAUSE OF HIM! WE CAN ONLY PRAY THAT HE IS GETTING THE WORD AND THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT WILL ASSIST POPE FRANCIS IN MAKING A COURSE CORRECTION WITH HIS RHETORIC AND AMBIGUOUS LANGUAGE TO INCLUDE OFF-THE-CUFF REMARKS.Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comBlogger119125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-80333988141384295102015-11-05T17:35:01.575-05:002015-11-05T17:35:01.575-05:00"It should be observed that those who are thu..."It should be observed that those who are thus saved are not entirely outside the pale of the Church. The will to fulfill all God's commandments is, and must be, present in all of them. Such a wish implicitly includes the desire for incorporation with the visible Church: for this, though they know it not, has been commanded by God. They thus belong to the Church by desire (voto). Moreover, there is a true sense in which they may be said to be saved through the Church. In the order of Divine Providence, salvation is given to man in the Church: membership in the Church Triumphant is given through membership in the Church Militant. Sanctifying grace, the title to salvation, is peculiarly the grace of those who are united to Christ in the Church: it is the birthright of the children of God. The primary purpose of those actual graces which God bestows upon those outside the Church is to draw them within the fold. Thus, even in the case in which God saves men apart from the Church, He does so through the Church's graces. They are joined to the Church in spiritual communion, though not in visible and external communion. In the expression of theologians, they belong to the soul of the Church, though not to its body.<br /><br />Yet the possibility of salvation apart from visible communion with the Church must not blind us to the loss suffered by those who are thus situated. They are cut off from the sacraments God has given as the support of the soul. In the ordinary channels of grace, which are ever open to the faithful Catholic, they cannot participate. Countless means of sanctification which the Church offers are denied to them. It is often urged that this is a stern and narrow doctrine. The reply to this objection is that the doctrine is stern, but only in the sense in which sternness is inseparable from love. It is the same sternness which we find in Christ's words, when he said: "If you believe not that I am he, you shall die in your sin" (John 8:24). The Church is animated with the spirit of Christ; she is filled with the same love for souls, the same desire for their salvation. Since, then, she knows that the way of salvation is through union with her, that in her and in her alone are stored the benefits of the Passion, she must needs be uncompromising and even stern in the assertion of her claims. To fail here would be to fail in the duty entrusted to her by her Lord. Even where the message is unwelcome, she must deliver it.<br /><br />It is instructive to observe that this doctrine has been proclaimed at every period of the Church's history. It is no accretion of a later age."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-72269813676083553832015-11-05T17:34:26.184-05:002015-11-05T17:34:26.184-05:00New Advent sums it up well and shows that there ha...New Advent sums it up well and shows that there has to be at a minimum for salvation: "an act of perfect charity and of contrition".<br /><br />"... there is but one conclusion: Union with the Church is not merely one out of various means by which salvation may be obtained: it is the only means.<br /><br />This doctrine of the absolute necessity of union with the Church was taught in explicit terms by Christ. Baptism, the act of incorporation among her members, He affirmed to be essential to salvation. "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved: he that believeth not shall be condemned" (Mark 16:16). Any disciple who shall throw off obedience to the Church is to be reckoned as one of the heathen: he has no part in the Kingdom of God (Matthew 18:17). St. Paul is equally explicit. "A man that is a heretic", he writes to Titus, "after the first and second admonition avoid, knowing that he that is such a one is . . . condemned by his own judgment" (Titus 3:10 sq.). <br /><br />The doctrine is summed up in the phrase, Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus. This saying has been the occasion of so many objections that some consideration of its meaning seems desirable. It certainly does not mean that none can be saved except those who are in visible communion with the Church. The Catholic Church has ever taught that nothing else is needed to obtain justification than an act of perfect charity and of contrition. Whoever, under the impulse of actual grace, elicits these acts receives immediately the gift of sanctifying grace, and is numbered among the children of God. Should he die in these dispositions, he will assuredly attain heaven. It is true such acts could not possibly be elicited by one who was aware that God has commanded all to join the Church, and who nevertheless should willfully remain outside her fold.<br /><br />For love of God carries with it the practical desire to fulfill His commandments. But of those who die without visible communion with the Church, not all are guilty of willful disobedience to God's commands. Many are kept from the Church by ignorance. Such may be the case of numbers among those who have been brought up in heresy. To others the external means of grace may be unattainable. Thus an excommunicated person may have no opportunity of seeking reconciliation at the last, and yet may repair his faults by inward acts of contrition and charity.<br /><br />continuedAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-6354400646987501292015-11-05T17:11:20.973-05:002015-11-05T17:11:20.973-05:00Fr Kavanagh you have clearly stated that outside t...Fr Kavanagh you have clearly stated that outside the Church there is no salvation. Therefore, can you define what set of people the term "the Church" embraces? Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-50031497321371835472015-11-05T17:08:24.041-05:002015-11-05T17:08:24.041-05:00Marc I think your statement, "people who are ...Marc I think your statement, "people who are not members of the Church in this life will be in heaven -- even the unbaptized Jews, Muslims, and others. The error would be to say that such people are saved as a result of their false beliefs. If they are saved, they are saved despite their false beliefs" is an example of the contortions you have to go through to try to explain this doctrine. It is really an absurdity to say that someone is saved despite their false beliefs.<br /><br />Christ is the Son of God, the Third Person of the Blessed Trinity. How can you imply that He was being legalistic when He said: "Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." You appear to be denying the very words of Christ Himself that are plain and unequivocal. Christ was saying that they are more than susceptible to the loss of heaven. He said that water and the Holy Ghost are prerequisites to entering heaven.<br /><br />Cardinal Burke and others have written "Remaining in the Truth of Christ" where they clearly state that what Christ says about divorce is still true today. So then what he said about baptism and the Holy Ghost still holds true today and anyone who is saved, despite himself, must be few indeed and, therefore, we have a duty to evangelise everyone to the Catholic Church. That is the safest and surest way. The rest is just dangerous PC contortions to me.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-52130864107697372382015-11-05T15:47:05.308-05:002015-11-05T15:47:05.308-05:00Jan said: "Therefore, it seems to me that exc...Jan said: "Therefore, it seems to me that except for those whom God may decide are saved that the vast majority, remaining outside the Church without baptism are not saved."<br /><br />So... in your first paragraph you said that only the baptized could be saved, but here you concede that God can save whomever God wills to be saved. <br /><br />I don't think that anyone here is arguing that people should remain in error outside the Church. And I think everyone would agree that such people are susceptible to not reaching heaven by virtue of their remaining in error outside the Church. <br /><br />It is not being PC to suggest, though, that people who are not members of the Church in this life will be in heaven -- even the unbaptized Jews, Muslims, and others. The error would be to say that such people are saved as a result of their false beliefs. If they are saved, they are saved despite their false beliefs.<br /><br />To believe that God is bound by the system he chose to establish is the height of legalism -- it suggests a limited God. And it suggests a God who creates millions of souls just to see them perish into eternal hellfire. Such a God would not be worthy of worship, but of contempt.<br /><br />Thankfully, our God is a God who loves us and wants us to grow in union with him and be with him in paradise forever, after we have used our time on earth wisely by knowing and spreading the Truth of his loving Incarnation and re-Creation of our wounded souls.Marchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13510317669833026685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-68683979651499393792015-11-05T14:26:39.041-05:002015-11-05T14:26:39.041-05:00Jan says: "To all, it seems to me that there ...Jan says: "To all, it seems to me that there is a lot of twisting and turning going on to try to make sense of this now garbled doctrine since V2. Christ Himself said, "Unless you are born of water and the Holy Spirit you shall not enter the Kingdom of Heaven". That, therefore, puts pagans, Muslims and Jews in a difficult situation. In fact, plumb right out of heaven."<br /><br />Jan, this is completely wrong. It is Feeney-ist rigorism and has been condemnd.<br /><br />Jan says also: "On top of that it has already been infalliblly stated by the Church that these people, remaining in said state, cannot enter heaven. It is also infallibly stated that:"The meaning of Sacred Dogmas, which must always be preserved, is that which our Holy Mother the Church has determined. Never is it permissible to depart from this in the name of a deeper understanding"."<br /><br />Again, Jan, this is wrong. You have ignored the Church documents I cited showing you just why it is wrong.Fr. Michael J. Kavanaughnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-20489610098316992042015-11-05T12:05:08.915-05:002015-11-05T12:05:08.915-05:00And Fr k, if everyone is whooshed into heaven, whe...And Fr k, if everyone is whooshed into heaven, whether Pagan, Jew or Muslim, Protestant, baptised or unbaptised, what then is the reason for the Church and why did Our Lord tell the apostles to go and make disciples of all the nations, baptising them, when if anyone can be saved - according to Pope Francis even the atheist who doesn't believe in God - there is no reason for conversion to the Catholic Faith or to Christianity for that matter, no reason for the Gospel and no reason even to believe in God at all.<br /><br />In reality, looking at it all in the cold light of day there is no reason even for the sacraments, is there? We're all going to be one happy PC family up there in heaven with God (except for the Traditionalists that is), even those who don't beleive in Him. What a shock for them! No reason either for the saints, the martyrs, the priesthood and perhaps no reason for Christ to have died on the cross, taken to its logical conclusion, if we have a God who is so all embracing that everyone gets to heaven anyway ...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-45588898044994213402015-11-05T11:53:50.043-05:002015-11-05T11:53:50.043-05:00To all, it seems to me that there is a lot of twis...To all, it seems to me that there is a lot of twisting and turning going on to try to make sense of this now garbled doctrine since V2. Christ Himself said, "Unless you are born of water and the Holy Spirit you shall not enter the Kingdom of Heaven". That, therefore, puts pagans, Muslims and Jews in a difficult situation. In fact, plumb right out of heaven.<br /><br />On top of that it has already been infalliblly stated by the Church that these people, remaining in said state, cannot enter heaven. It is also infallibly stated that:"The meaning of Sacred Dogmas, which must always be preserved, is that which our Holy Mother the Church has determined. Never is it permissible to depart from this in the name of a deeper understanding". <br /><br />Therefore, it seems to me that except for those whom God may decide are saved that the vast majority, remaining outside the Church without baptism are not saved. That is what the Church has, after all, infallibly stated. The Church did not arise after Vatican 2 so we must also take into account the magisterium before Vatican 2. Pope Benedict has also stated that the protestant from the reformation are not churches and as such do not come under what was stated at Vat 2. <br /><br />It seems to me that all these contortions you have had to go through are to try to explain the doctrine, while admitting that the dogma extra Ecclesiam nulla salus is unchanged. It is like trying to push a square peg into a round hole - it just doesn't work. And the real danger is that souls are being lost in the mistaken belief that they will be saved through some mysterious, unable to be explained, PC explanation that conveniently overlooks the words of Our Lord Himself: Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Just as He said no to divorce and liberals are trying every which way to give valid reasons why a divorced person can receive Holy Communion, so to have liberals twisted this doctrine which all can see is going to have to be looked at long and hard again because no one can simply explain it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-51420548682267177862015-11-04T08:31:37.365-05:002015-11-04T08:31:37.365-05:00I don't know about your RCIA Process (not a pr...I don't know about your RCIA Process (not a program) but in mine, those that are there have responded to God who initiated their desire to come and they have responded of their own free will. But God is the instigator, motivator. If someone is in purgatory (who was not a Catholic or a Christian but simply a good person who responded to the promptings of the Holy Spirit, they are predestined by God to be there as He knows their hearts and what they would have been like if they had been baptized. They make the best Catholics you know even in purgatory. Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-11472199610444365362015-11-04T07:34:35.343-05:002015-11-04T07:34:35.343-05:00Good Father - Another issue with your "Conver...Good Father - Another issue with your "Conversion in Purgatory" thought is this: Why, if everyone who gets to Purgatory is whooshed into be a "Complete Catholic," with or without their consent, why are you running an RCIA program?<br /><br />If the conversion is certain and unavoidable in the life to come, what purpose is seeking to make others members of the Catholic Church in the here and now?Fr. Michael J. Kavanaughnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-31991743222322954432015-11-03T23:46:09.222-05:002015-11-03T23:46:09.222-05:00Purgatory
What justice would there be in persons ...Purgatory<br /><br />What justice would there be in persons of varying degrees of goodness and sanctity all entering into Heaven where one person might be very holy and another only good? It would not be just for each person to receive the same reward, when one person is not as liable to God’s Justice to the same degree another person according to how each one has offended God nor as prepared to be in His Holy Presence. The Divine Justice must be satisfied and in whatever way it happens, in this life or the next, we must be cleansed and purified. <br />Yet in God and His Mercy is our hope because His Son, by His suffering and death, has merited our salvation.<br />If there were no place of purgation, it would violate the law of consequences and the satisfaction to God’s Justice, because there would be offense done to God and harm our neighbor, without any repair to the offense inflicted by our sinful actions (if we were to die in a state spiritual indebtedness or imperfection). Things must be set right. God’s justice must be satisfied. We must be purified. As it written in Matthew 26: “Amen, I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny.” <br />An exception would be those who die immediately after baptism which cleanses one of sin and any temporal punishment due to sin. We also know that Jesus promised the Good thief on the cross that he would be in Paradise that day. He was in the presence and received the forgiveness of the Son of God Himself. After suffering and dying the brutal death of a Roman crucifixion, what more purgation was needed to pay off the debt of his sin? He was forgiven and absolved by the Divine Priest Himself.<br />If somehow a young child could be immediately transformed into an adult without experiencing the intervening years, the shock would be too much. Likewise, for many of us, to go from this earthly existence directly to Heaven without the preparation and purification of Purgatory is just not possible. As Hebrews 12:14 states we must strive "for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord."Georgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05809499822558662728noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-91781494296495620422015-11-03T18:08:55.625-05:002015-11-03T18:08:55.625-05:00Fr. Kavanaugh, of course we will find all of those...Fr. Kavanaugh, of course we will find all of those people and more in heaven. There is no Catholic heaven. God established the Church as the surest path to salvation, but not the exclusive path. Marchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13510317669833026685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-63706594911450914842015-11-03T17:45:05.931-05:002015-11-03T17:45:05.931-05:00Ad yes, the heresy of universalism brought to heav...Ad yes, the heresy of universalism brought to heaven. Yikes. And Marc, non sectarian like Stratford Academy? Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-47715573981122530942015-11-03T17:21:39.544-05:002015-11-03T17:21:39.544-05:00Good Father - You're still not offered any Chu...Good Father - You're still not offered any Church teaching to back up your assertion that everyone is converted to the Catholic Church in Purgatory....<br /><br />Marc - I wonder if, since we will all be the Church Triumphant in heaven, we will discover that in this Church there are Jews, Muslims, atheists, Presbyterians, Catholics, and others... All children of God, all redeemed by the Blood of Christ, all judged worthy to worship at the Throne of God.Fr. Michael J. Kavanaughnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-85350158197817610612015-11-03T14:42:27.108-05:002015-11-03T14:42:27.108-05:00I would tend to think that heaven and purgatory ar...I would tend to think that heaven and purgatory are non-sectarian. <br /><br />Let's see what Fr. M says about my reading of his idea... I agree that "completely Catholic" doesn't make much sense here. Marchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13510317669833026685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-73082135751660886802015-11-03T14:40:52.227-05:002015-11-03T14:40:52.227-05:00Good Fr. K, you became a part of the Church on ear...Good Fr. K, you became a part of the Church on earth (Church Militant) not of your own accord but by a act of God through Holy Mother Church. I stand by my bulletin comment, but it is all an act of God through Holy Mother Church. Capice?Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-90370020466768951492015-11-03T14:36:14.821-05:002015-11-03T14:36:14.821-05:00Marc - Good Father McDonald asserts: "...I wr...Marc - Good Father McDonald asserts: "...I wrote a bulletin letter here saying that those who through no fault of their own can be saved and they are saved by becoming completely Catholic or members of the Church through purgatory."<br /><br />"Completely Catholic" is the phrase that is problematic. I don't know of any Church teaching that speaks to Good Father McDonald's assertion of conversion in Purgatory. Or change of denomination in Purgatory. Or choice to become what one was not whilst on earth.<br /><br />I think there is more than nomenclature here. <br /><br />Fr. Michael J. Kavanaughnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-91944387800106243512015-11-03T13:45:21.180-05:002015-11-03T13:45:21.180-05:00If I could attempt to mediate this contentious poi...If I could attempt to mediate this contentious point, I think that Fr. McDonald's point is not so subtle as Fr. Kavanaugh is trying to make it. <br /><br />Fr. McDonald's point seems to be that the souls in purgatory are members of the Church suffering. So, anyone who is in purgatory is ipso facto a member of the Church by being so designated. This is less of a theological point and more of a statement of classification and nomenclature.Marchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13510317669833026685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-58480414438976204372015-11-03T13:15:07.795-05:002015-11-03T13:15:07.795-05:00why do you, oh why, do you assert something over a...why do you, oh why, do you assert something over and over again which is what you are saying and not me? I never said someone joins the Church in purgatory. If they are there and not in hell, God has made them members of the Church just as you were made a member of the Church through your infant baptism. You had no choice. The decision was made for you by God through your parents and Holy Mother Church--capice? Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-19295015787077277552015-11-03T13:12:01.511-05:002015-11-03T13:12:01.511-05:00Allan, that's a diversion. Your assertion is ...Allan, that's a diversion. Your assertion is that people become members of the Catholic Church when they are in Purgatory. Is there some Church teaching that supports this notion that people can make such a choice at this time? And does a non-Christian have a choice to opt-out, inasmuch as he/she has no desire to be a Catholic?Fr. Michael J. Kavanaughnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-4978387371375557162015-11-03T12:11:32.921-05:002015-11-03T12:11:32.921-05:00Good Fr. K! Are you telling me that as an infant y...Good Fr. K! Are you telling me that as an infant you chose to be baptized and thus chose to be a member of the Church? Just what Church did you get your formation? I suspect you think that First Holy Communion was your choice as was Confirmation! All the more reason to follow the Eastern Rite, for all three sacraments to be celebrated in infancy!Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-43249441439993023912015-11-03T11:46:37.585-05:002015-11-03T11:46:37.585-05:00Good Father, I didn't ask why people were in P...Good Father, I didn't ask why people were in Purgatory by choice or not, so your answer, "If one is in Purgatory good Fr. K, it isn't because of their choice, but God's choice to allow them to be there for purgation and temporal punishment due their forgiven sins" doesn't apply.<br /><br />Here 'tis again: Where does the Church teach that souls, after death, can make a choice to become members of the Catholic Church?<br /><br />If they do not have a choice, but are simply "whooshed" into the Catholic Church without so much as a "Would you like?", then, Houston, we have a problem. <br />Fr. Michael J. Kavanaughnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-81563224840742996722015-11-03T11:35:21.900-05:002015-11-03T11:35:21.900-05:00Marc, not in the Church Militant or the Church Suf...Marc, not in the Church Militant or the Church Suffering are we in the perfect presence of God seeing Him face to face as it were. In the Church Militant we see God through the veil of a sacrament. I suspect too, for those in Purgatory it is connected with the sacramental, but not the perfection of God as you describe it for the soul who is a part of the Church triumphant. Just as we as member of the Church Militant come to a realization of what God is revealing to us in Word, Sacrament and Creation and through our brothers and sisters on earth, the same would be true of the Church Suffering but in a more immediate way. Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-49629626915680958462015-11-03T11:32:23.416-05:002015-11-03T11:32:23.416-05:00Father, I think that the Church has rejected your ...Father, I think that the Church has rejected your idea that baptism of desire can operate as you suggest, but I don't have the time to find the reference right now. I have a World Series Champions parade to get to!<br /><br />Thank you for the well wishes. I have no doubt that the concept of concupiscence is a reality. It is the idea of original guilt and the damnation of the unbaptized infants that I have problem with. And, as I said, I cannot get around the fact that the limbo of the infants is (a) a doctrine of the Church (I know you and Fr. Kavanaugh will disagree with this), and (b) absolutely logically flowing from the Church's teaching on original guilt.Marchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13510317669833026685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-54144167233569132482015-11-03T11:29:30.613-05:002015-11-03T11:29:30.613-05:00With regard to the operation of purgatory, we are ...With regard to the operation of purgatory, we are in the realm of the entirely speculative. I understand the idea that you're suggesting, but it seems to me that it is incongruous with the purpose of purgatory. Here's why I disagree with you:<br /><br />You're suggesting that coming to a knowledge of the effect of sin entails a learning curve that demonstrates that knowledge can be gained during the purgatory experience. Perhaps the purgation would involve this sort of knowledge, but the knowledge is just a method to bring about the effect of purgation, a secondary aspect of the temporal punishment. <br /><br />The lack of knowledge of doctrine (or more correctly, the lack of knowledge of God as he is in himself) is not something to be purged by temporal punishment. A person in heaven (of which purgatory is part) would be in the immediate presence of God so that there is no need of doctrine. Such a person would know God in himself, which obviates any need for a knowledge imparting process like what you're suggesting.<br /><br />Doctrine is not a necessity except as a description of the reality we only see through a glass, darkly. In heaven, there is no doctrine since there we will see clearly through the state of being united with God.Marchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13510317669833026685noreply@blogger.com