tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post5556846103537840588..comments2024-03-28T20:30:10.681-04:00Comments on southern orders: THE CHURCH OF EXTREMESFr. Allan J. McDonaldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-1118451429271234082011-04-01T12:28:56.776-04:002011-04-01T12:28:56.776-04:00Anita: There is NO connection between th EF mass a...Anita: There is NO connection between th EF mass and racism, sexism, etc. And I never suggested there was. Nor, is there any connection between the OF mass and child sex abuse.<br /><br />They simply existed at the same time.<br /><br />The historical fact is that many things that were thought "good" by Church leaders and Catholics in general - slavery is one example - are now understood to be horribly evil. Just because a thing was the norm "back then" does not mean it is or should be the norm now.<br /><br />There has to be a better reason.Maimonidesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-13925659152602688082011-04-01T00:33:57.361-04:002011-04-01T00:33:57.361-04:00BDKing said...
"...what was good for the...BDKing said...<br /><br /> <i>"...what was good for the Church in since the 1500's if not before cannot be bad for the Church today."<br /><br /> Where do we start...? Slaves owned by priests and bishops? No women allowed in the choir? Castrati in the choirs sounding like women? Expulsions of the Jews?</i><br /><br />Notwithstanding <i>Summorum pontificum</i>, there are still places where the Mass of tradition is inaccessible; and the foregoing illustrates why those of us who live in these liberal enclaves and want to restore it must fight an uphill battle. Too many Catholics have been taught to associate the Extraordinary Form with racism, sexism, homophobia, Jim Crow, chastity belts, pollution, dead white males, etc. etc. etc. Personally, I don't see the connection; but too many of my fellow Catholics think it's there, and that is a tough thing to overcome.Anita Moorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11305092097247290243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-19005841368293077502011-03-31T21:53:23.102-04:002011-03-31T21:53:23.102-04:00StabatMater, What a wonderful story you have share...StabatMater, What a wonderful story you have shared with us! Thank you very much and you will definitely be in my prayers. GeneGenehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-52730304951573048542011-03-31T20:10:16.128-04:002011-03-31T20:10:16.128-04:00Thanks Stabat Mater for your words. When we take t...Thanks Stabat Mater for your words. When we take the Church and the Liturgy seriously, we take God seriously and that does indeed bring order out of disorder!Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-77590990132639286712011-03-31T19:47:13.104-04:002011-03-31T19:47:13.104-04:00Oops for got to correct the church name before sen...Oops for got to correct the church name before sending my earlier post. It is St. Frances Xavier Cabrini Church in New Orleans which was damaged in and torn down after Hurricane Katrina.StabatMaternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-75711953460047817572011-03-31T19:43:55.634-04:002011-03-31T19:43:55.634-04:00So a dear friend just called me about this Pink Pa...So a dear friend just called me about this Pink Panther thing. This photo is from St. Dominic in New Orleans. These props are used for Mt. Carmel Academy (a nearby girl’s “Catholic” school). For every “special” Mass, ie Ring Night, pinning ceremonies, etc., the mascot of the senior class is put in front of the altar (Pink Panther’s was hers in the mid-nineties, and so got handed to the incoming freshman class & rotated.) The bear represents the school mascot– cubs. The colorful thingies are spirit sticks. This has been a part of this school’s tradition for at least 20 years.<br />And now you know another reason I am HOMESCHOOLING my children!!!!!!<br />I coordinate Novus Ordo Masses for our homeschool group (with much more traditional priests). I have been hit with the document on children’s Masses by another mother who is much more liturgically liberal than I. It has been difficult, but with the support of many other families we have held firm in not turning our Masses into the Hoop Dee Doo Revue. Why does everything need to be dumbed down & turned into Chuck E Cheese to think it has any value to children? Give them the sacred mystery that every human heart desires! My children have never asked me to “shake things up a little” in order that Mass might strike their fancy. Please keep our group in prayer!<br />Additionally my family has begun attending EF– and it has been nothing short of miraculous! The sense of right-order in my home as of late has taken my breath away. I returned to the Church through the charismatic movement, but I must say in the EF I have found the FULLNESS of Faith! And having a daughter (11 yo) with neuro-sensory processing issues– well, I wish I would have known before what a fluid, multi-sensory experience the EF would be. She is beautifully captivated as is my 6 year old son (insert vocation prayer, please ;) as well as one for his upcoming First Communion on the Feast of Corpus Christi!) I am one VERY happy mother! Latin has changed our homeschooling efforts for the better. I could ramble forever, sorry– but we have truly been overcome with immeasurable joy since attending the EF of the Mass. Ain’t nothin’ ordinary about it!!!!StabatMaternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-32116202686234278662011-03-31T18:54:17.876-04:002011-03-31T18:54:17.876-04:00Whoa, there, BDKing/Ignotus...Re: slavery and cast...Whoa, there, BDKing/Ignotus...Re: slavery and castrati sopranos being a bad thing: Hey, I'm just sayin'...I mean, without slavery you would have had no Pyramids, no Sphinx, no Great Wall, no Exodous, no "let my people go" so we could have the '60's, no Roman Empire, none of those neat gladiator fights so we can have movies, no Parthenon, no Parnassus, and no Gant shirts, Jockey shorts, or blues music. There would be none of those cool folk songs about slavery and freedom everyone used to smoke dope to, nothing for liberals to whine about, and no livelihood for Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton, and Obama would never have become President. Better re-think that.<br /><br />As far as castrati sopranos are concerned...who else is gonna' hit all those high c's? And, you have to imagine how wonderful all that medieval and Renaisance plainchnat must have sounded...wow! Hey,now that I think of it, Bill Maher, Chris Matthews, Bill Clinton, and Michael Moore would make great castrati sopranos. I mean, they are practically there already...a little quick micro-surgery and there you are...wouldn't even need anesthesia...they are already numb.LOL!Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-65695310489983094302011-03-31T13:01:05.028-04:002011-03-31T13:01:05.028-04:00The logical progression of positions like that of ...The logical progression of positions like that of BDKing/Ignotus is that we are moving full steam ahead towards a secular/humanist utopia peopled by reasonable, charitable, humble, non-violent, universalist automatons who use no bad words, think no bad thoughts, love everybody (except themselves, of course),drive matchbox cars that run on Perrier water...all run by a hip, benign, welfare state bureaucrat. All tradition, history, culture, individuality, and Catholic identity be damned. Here we come!!! Ignotus can be the High Priest of Proper.Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-4361529738036452472011-03-31T12:57:44.786-04:002011-03-31T12:57:44.786-04:00I did not say the pre-Vatican II mass "contri...I did not say the pre-Vatican II mass "contributed to slavery." No one thinks that. Nor, for that matter, do I think the post-Vatican II mass contrinutes to child molestation.<br /><br />I did say that there were many things that were approved/accepted in the Church in the 1500's that we no longer approve/accept. Slavery was good enough in the 1500's... Castrati were good enough in the 1500's... But they are gone now.<br /><br />You see, the argument is weak as water. Just because it was good enough then doesn't make it good enough now. (No, Pin, I am not suggesting we jettison divinely revelaed Truth, so don't get your shorts in a knot.) The form of the mass, however, is not a matter of Divine Revelation, otherwise it would never, not once, have changed.<br /><br />Charity demands that I point out to rcg that slavery and castrati were never, in themselves, good. The Church thought they were good, but the Church and her leaders recognized their error.BDKingnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-23146114319076758422011-03-31T12:46:08.345-04:002011-03-31T12:46:08.345-04:00Trivia: the third picture is of the Pink Panther, ...Trivia: the third picture is of the Pink Panther, not Tony the Tiger.<br /><br />Play on.Jeffrey Pinyanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08758581112217835988noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-6205688310915380872011-03-31T11:28:27.437-04:002011-03-31T11:28:27.437-04:00Charity demands that I point out for BDKing that t...Charity demands that I point out for BDKing that the blog post sentence reads "What was *good* for the Church..." obviously allowing that all things were not good. I would then ask, less charitably, if BDKing intentionally meant to say that what was good then is not good now. How would that reconcile with the Incarnation?<br /><br />rcgAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-32030996007288426112011-03-31T10:14:16.721-04:002011-03-31T10:14:16.721-04:00One of the great failings in modern teaching is th...One of the great failings in modern teaching is that few among us realize that slavery has been in every culture, at one time or another. That is not to justify the practice, but simply to put things in perspective: it is not a failing of any one group, but has been a failing of all groups, not all at the same time.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08283569345133247175noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-84916472823685040052011-03-31T09:48:40.203-04:002011-03-31T09:48:40.203-04:00There should never be any name calling, only addre...There should never be any name calling, only address the issues not the personalities or people.Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-6630754414607545342011-03-31T09:21:15.150-04:002011-03-31T09:21:15.150-04:00Ewww! Ewww! Slavery!!! Ewww!! *wring hands, run in...Ewww! Ewww! Slavery!!! Ewww!! *wring hands, run in circles* Do you have any idea how stupid and mindless it is for certain people, usually libs, to scream and moan about slavery in some knee-jerk reflex response every time anyone mentions tradition, structure, law, heritage, history, or the blessings, triumphs, and benefits of Western culture and the Judaeo-Christian tradition? Slavery and much worse still exist in many parts of the world. Why don't you run and wring your hands about modernism? (Fr., am I allowed to say "moron" on this site?)Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-78012098946571217092011-03-31T08:48:26.168-04:002011-03-31T08:48:26.168-04:00BDKing, of course we're speaking of the hermen...BDKing, of course we're speaking of the hermeneutic of reform within continuity. To say that the pre-Vatican II Mass which is what I was writing about contributed to slavery and other forms of cultural idiosyncrasies is to say that the post Vatican II Mass contributed to priests molesting children, bishops who reassigned them, laity who enter into spousal abuse and divorce and on and on shall we go.<br /><br />The thing that the Church of all ages has, which we seem to have forgotten, is clergy and laity corrupted by original and actual sin and always in need of reform from that point of view, both from the personal and cultural point of view. So Jesus used imagery of slaves in His parables and He's the Master. Therefore, He's not to be our Messiah?Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-61963737244180397992011-03-31T08:40:27.996-04:002011-03-31T08:40:27.996-04:00"...what was good for the Church in since the..."...what was good for the Church in since the 1500's if not before cannot be bad for the Church today."<br /><br />Where do we start...? Slaves owned by priests and bishops? No women allowed in the choir? Castrati in the choirs sounding like women? Expulsions of the Jews?<br /><br />It is simply too fascile (and in my estimation an implicit denial of the Incarnation) to say of the liturgy "what was good then is good now." As translations have changed, as language has evolved, as the doctrine of the Church has developed, so has the liturgy.<br /><br />And that is a good thing.BDKingnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-66963544236099362822011-03-31T07:30:48.562-04:002011-03-31T07:30:48.562-04:00I bet the Protestants would have loved a name chan...I bet the Protestants would have loved a name change: "Do you attend the Baptist Church in Macon? No, I'm a Christian." In all seriousness I was relieved in a sad way when I read B XVI comment that the Church would likely get smaller in order to grow. So many people are claiming to be Catholic when they don't agree with so much of what identifies it as Catholic. In many cases they would be at home and happy to the point of elisium in an Episcopal or Presbyterian Church. It almost seems a mental illness to claim to be in communion with the Church while fighting all the core teachings. Why not join the C of E and work from their side for unity that would legitimately acknowledge the alternative? They could likely become a priest or bishop in no time. I suppose it would be a sin to suggest such a thing to them. <br /><br />rcgAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-81033748135218061892011-03-31T07:08:29.846-04:002011-03-31T07:08:29.846-04:00"Lunatic Left..." Fr., you really must w..."Lunatic Left..." Fr., you really must watch those redundancies. LOL!Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.com