tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post5286031144355444292..comments2024-03-28T20:30:10.681-04:00Comments on southern orders: 1960’S DESPERATION! AND THE SPIRITUAL BATTLE AGAINST HETERODOXY Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comBlogger45125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-22479178283260977952021-12-24T10:49:42.723-05:002021-12-24T10:49:42.723-05:00TJM,
I don't see how a lack of fondness for o...TJM,<br /><br />I don't see how a lack of fondness for one translates into fondness for the other. <br /><br />That aside, and given the day, I think it's time to put this aside. <br /><br />A blessed Nativity Feast to you, your family and anyone else who reads this. ByzRushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11543580976814745615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-46942896498661074542021-12-23T21:11:11.040-05:002021-12-23T21:11:11.040-05:00ByzRus,
LOL and Joe Biden cheated on his wife, sn...ByzRus,<br /><br />LOL and Joe Biden cheated on his wife, sniffs kids, dropped out of 2 presidential primaries because he was a plagiarist and manifest liar, and remains a faux Catholic, blatantly defying the Church’s teachings on the sanctity of human life. <br /><br />His anti-energy policies have triggered inflation not seen since the Carter years, burdening the less fortunate. The porous border is bringing in crime. His “smart” foreign policy has caused the French to withdraw its ambassador.<br /><br />Your kind of guy!TJMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07280218128963202431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-24260730020167254882021-12-23T10:15:13.115-05:002021-12-23T10:15:13.115-05:00ByzRus
By the same analogy, if no standard is fly...ByzRus<br /><br />By the same analogy, if no standard is flying it can be assumed that the owner of the castle has struck his colours and therefore no attack is necessary.<br /><br />Neither I, nor you, nor the esteemed blog owner, can make guarantees for anyone else. But I, or you, or the esteemed blog owner, can make guarantees regarding his own conduct. That's not presumption.John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-81553141509723711762021-12-23T10:00:22.070-05:002021-12-23T10:00:22.070-05:00TJM
I'm shaking. You've drawn a conclusi...TJM<br /><br />I'm shaking. You've drawn a conclusion about me. <br /><br />Trump was a Republican, then a Democrat, then a Republican again. He's whatever you want him to be to win at any cost. You're blinded by love but, you'll figure it out eventually.<br /><br />As for the rest of your comments, I don't know what to say that I already haven't.<br /><br />ByzRushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11543580976814745615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-58388528991766560752021-12-23T09:33:43.633-05:002021-12-23T09:33:43.633-05:00ByzRus,
Your first comment tells me all I need to...ByzRus,<br /><br />Your first comment tells me all I need to know about you. Ok - President Biden is evil. There is far more public evidence to support that proposition than the assertion made by Father K about President Trump who started no new hot wars and was pro life and reinstated policies prohibiting the feds from paying for abortions. Biden wants to codify Roe V Wade - that’s evil coming from an alleged Catholic.<br /><br />Everything else you write flies in the face of demonstrable facts. You still have not answered why the OF is such a flop as is Vatican II? If there was poor implementation why has there not been a correction? I lived before the Council when our Church was truly a great, universal Church, which on balance did far more good than the post Conciliar ChurchTJMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07280218128963202431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-83233535618138567482021-12-23T09:19:50.500-05:002021-12-23T09:19:50.500-05:00John Nolan,
So, per that logic, if one were to at...John Nolan,<br /><br />So, per that logic, if one were to attack my castle, and my standard isn't flying, it's not a real attack? I suspect we'll have to agree to disagree there. <br /><br />Besides our host, I'm not sure it's anyone's responsibility to provide any guarantees regarding this blog. To do otherwise is, to me, presumptuous. Again, I suspect we'll have to agree to disagree.ByzRushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11543580976814745615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-14373538572254095062021-12-23T05:54:50.560-05:002021-12-23T05:54:50.560-05:00ByzRus
One can only insult an identifiable indivi...ByzRus<br /><br />One can only insult an identifiable individual, and an 'anonymous' contributor is not in that category. Therefore to take personal umbrage at a 'rude' or 'unnecessarily harsh' reply to an anonymous comment doesn't make sense.<br /><br />This blog was at one time infested with anonymous and constantly changing pseudonymous comments, mostly written by the same individual. Now that you are an identifiable individual you are guaranteed an easier ride. Perhaps if you repost or reference your original comment, you might elicit a different response. John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-86928406364294855692021-12-22T21:40:46.999-05:002021-12-22T21:40:46.999-05:00TJM:
"He has called President Trump evil.&qu...TJM:<br /><br />"He has called President Trump evil." If he did, and so?? The former president did seem to model "win at any cost", "self preservation at any cost" type behaviors. Reagan, he was not. <br /><br />"His Party". I don't recall establishing this and, furthermore, it's none of my business. <br /><br />"He has gotten into it with several posters" And you haven't? John Nolan? John Nolan was rude to me following my very first "Anonymous" post (as I didn't yet have a handle, I didn't know the protocol) on this blog. Wearing my big-boy pants I got past it, but found it to be unnecessarily harsh. <br /><br />"Who know far more about liturgy than he does." Supposition. Perhaps John Nolan is a better arm chair liturgist than Fr. MJK, fine. The distinction, Fr. MJK has a parish to which he is responsible for ministering. As laypersons, none of the rest of us have anything close to that level of spiritual responsibility. <br /><br />Bee: Began imitating, stylistically, the comments of others on this blog and either did not care for the response, or being ignored because of the tone. This is what happens when group think becomes prevalent - when posters abuse their platform. <br /><br />To quote the late, great James Gandolfini as Tony Soprano to Richie: "Those who want respect, give respect". ByzRushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11543580976814745615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-89521064782282333492021-12-22T17:56:12.150-05:002021-12-22T17:56:12.150-05:00ByzRus,
You have selective recall on Father K. He...ByzRus,<br /><br />You have selective recall on Father K. He has called President Trump evil. Recall that? Very judgmental and off the mark when you consider his Party is always trying to get more money for abortions and refuses to accept any restrictions on this holocaust. . He has gotten into it with several posters here, including John Nolan, who knows far more about liturgy than he does. He drove away one of our best commentators, Bee, through vicious attacks. You should be a bit more circumspect when coming to his rescue.TJMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07280218128963202431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-74150535549159703042021-12-22T16:30:57.936-05:002021-12-22T16:30:57.936-05:00TJM,
I believe we've gone through this before...TJM,<br /><br />I believe we've gone through this before. No doubt the changes of the council, poorly implement though they were, contributed greatly; the cultural and social shift of that time had to have had a negative effect on tradition, faith and morals. Much added to history's dustbin since then, high altars among them. <br /><br />Agree, Fr. MJK oftentimes brings an alternate view, or vantagepoint to consider. To me, that's what makes conversation both interesting and challenging. Otherwise, you have an echo chamber of group think. <br /><br />To be fair, the steps Fr. AJM has taken regarding re-enchantment, are constructive from his perspective. I don't disagree with, really, anything that he's done liturgically; it is just important to note that there is absolutely nothing legislative that obliges anyone else to follow his lead. While I hope more do, they don't have to. <br /><br />You regularly draw conclusions about which you know nothing. I suspect foolishness to be the driver. You know neither myself nor Fr. MJK and, therefore, you're in no position to tell either of us what company you presume us to be in. Where is all this politicization? Some time back, I recall Fr. MJK discussing what the Democratic party formerly stood for and who they represented and from a historical point of view, I felt the points that he made were on point. Otherwise, I don't know what you're talking about and the repetition is beyond distracting. <br />ByzRushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11543580976814745615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-86832201184873237342021-12-22T14:55:58.234-05:002021-12-22T14:55:58.234-05:00ByzRus,
LOL - since Father K refuses to answer, m...ByzRus,<br /><br />LOL - since Father K refuses to answer, maybe you will. If the Council and the OF are so wonderful, why is it that millions of Catholics have fled, and as to the remnant which attends the OF, only about 30 percent of the attendees believe in the Real Presence?<br /><br />Father K comes here primarily to be a thorn in Father McDonald’s side. I suspect professional jealousy. In contrast to Fr. K, Father McDonald acknowledges things have gone terribly wrong with the lex orandi, lex credendi since the Council and is taking constructive steps to address this. Your buddy is too invested in the liturgical failure to do anything. <br /><br />Also as an inveterate lefty, Father K ends up politicizing most threads and TDS. You’re in fine company there!TJMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07280218128963202431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-57698328646626426292021-12-21T16:58:42.468-05:002021-12-21T16:58:42.468-05:00Mickey - It was O'Malley's take on the lan...Mickey - It was O'Malley's take on the language of Vatican II that raised some questions in my mind. You've presumably read the book, so I thought you might be in a position to expand on the theme, perhaps giving an example from the Council documents of the epideictic/panegyric style.<br /><br />O'Malley was born in the same year as Ratzinger, but their respective interpretations of the Council seem very different.John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-16093097095497492402021-12-21T15:08:10.217-05:002021-12-21T15:08:10.217-05:00ByzRus- I am reminded of the passage from Matthew,...ByzRus- I am reminded of the passage from Matthew, "We played the pipe for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge, and you did not mourn."<br /><br />I will quote the commentary of Theophylact of Ochrid, knowing that it will raise the "elitist" sensors on some. "It is the malcontent nature of the Jews that He is speaking of here. For as they were cantankerous, neither John’s asceticism nor Christ’s simplicity pleased them. They were like foolish little children who are never satisfied — whether one cries for them or plays the pipe for them, they are not pleased."<br /><br />Fr. Michael J. Kavanaughhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05162547334902814362noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-54036274730085898042021-12-21T14:32:07.304-05:002021-12-21T14:32:07.304-05:00Thomas - Maybe your "unwashed" self shou...Thomas - Maybe your "unwashed" self should demand, then, that when an "expert" tells you something that he or she knows based on his/her "higher learning," you should tell that person to shut up and trust you, the non-expert to get it right.<br /><br />The Church exists, as you say, for the people in the pews. But it may be a burden for you to recognize that the people in the pews include every single baptized individual, whether that person is the twice-a-year mass attendee, Sister Mary Polyester Pants Suit who runs the CCD program, Johnny Base Note who plays guitar in the Contemporary Ensemble, Mr. and Ms. Politcally Active, Sally and Teddy Homeschooler, and anyone else who has the benefit and blessing of Baptism.Fr. Michael J. Kavanaughhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05162547334902814362noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-31722773440088981632021-12-21T13:37:02.303-05:002021-12-21T13:37:02.303-05:00So if I'm understanding this correctly as part...So if I'm understanding this correctly as part of the "elect", Fr. MJK ventures a bit into philosophy which likely is part of his training), quotes a book that he didn't write on the subject of VII and is then told he is showing off using big words....that he didn't write. --You know you can highlight the word, right click and search that term.-- Then, when the same priest notes that interpreting the writings of the VII, traditional though they are, requires a different lense, he is again chided. And, yes, Thomas Garrett, I too interpreted your response as a denigration. All the while, TJM is orbiting with predictable sound bytes. <br /><br />One has to wonder why Fr. MJK wastes his time trying to engage in conversation of this sort, or why Fr. AJM tolerates it? Last time I checked, this blog was striving for a heightened level of understanding and discussion. Such study, discussion and interpretation is usually done away from the pews as it is not reasonable to do so in quite this way there ("classroom" discussion is separate/distinct from community worship and instruction). Take care to understand that I am not espousing elitism, I am simply suggesting that discussion of this sort takes on an academic stance, like it or not. <br /><br /><br />ByzRushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11543580976814745615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-17285250868022266092021-12-21T10:40:03.418-05:002021-12-21T10:40:03.418-05:00Dear Father Kavanaugh,
I do not denigrate &qu...Dear Father Kavanaugh,<br /><br /> I do not denigrate "higher learning" (a phrase, which as someone who also attended grad school, am loathe to use, as it drips of vanity). My problem is with people who get a taste of academia, then use their expanded and specialized vocabulary as a weapon to let the unwashed know that they should just shut up and trust the experts. I've been watching the "professional Catholics" created by the Vatican II Forever industry for most of my life and whenever they are confronted by simple questions that shoot holes in their assertions, they vainly fall back on their slick, show-biz vocabulary of "higher learning" to silence anyone who disagrees or dares to question them. <br /><br />Statements from previous councils say what they meant and meant what they say. The Church exists for the people in the pews, not for the "elites" who use the faith to sell books, get lecture bookings and collect consulting fees for their "expertise".Thomas Garretthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09538614041116883278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-61943363905084001832021-12-21T08:32:36.356-05:002021-12-21T08:32:36.356-05:00Father K is just another apologist for failureFather K is just another apologist for failureTJMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07280218128963202431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-36272449733021537812021-12-21T08:31:43.856-05:002021-12-21T08:31:43.856-05:00Jerome - The documents of Vatican II are not "...Jerome - The documents of Vatican II are not "fluff." That you think they are indicates that you don't know them, that you haven't reflected on what they say, and that you think dismissing them makes them worthless.<br /><br />Thomas - You consistently denigrate higher learning which is unfortunate though not unexpected these days when so many use the term "elite" to mean "someone who knows more than they do and who has the audactity to use his or her knowledge appropriately." Next time you go to a doctor and he tells you that you suffer from myocarditis, be sure to tell him how tired you are of his use of flashy vocabulary and remind him that he can stop showing off.<br /><br />Johnny - Regarding the use of epideictic/panygeric style, O'Malley goes on to say, "It is an old genre of religious discourse, used extensively by the Fathers of the Church, revived in the Renaissance, and revisited in the twentieth century..." (p 47.)<br /><br />Fr. ALLAN McDonald - Yes, the documents are Vatican II are very traditional. Fr. Michael J. Kavanaughhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05162547334902814362noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-11927569518258200842021-12-21T05:10:59.000-05:002021-12-21T05:10:59.000-05:00When I read the Vatican II documents, these strike...When I read the Vatican II documents, these strike me as very traditional. When I hear various interpretations of what I read, I scratch my head and wonder how that interpretation came about. Sacramentum Concilium is a case in point. It seems rather conservative and straight forward to me, noble simplicity, an expanded lectionary, preservation of Latin, especially Gregorian Chant while allowing some vernacular. Then, all hell breaks out liturgically, the liturgy wars and the like and all the sacraments suffer greatly from the interpretation which I don’t see.<br /><br />What’s up with that? Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-80910523420087697882021-12-21T04:57:15.421-05:002021-12-21T04:57:15.421-05:00Fr K
Is O'Malley saying that the language of ...Fr K<br /><br />Is O'Malley saying that the language of Vatican II was epideictic (note the spelling) which usually means 'done for outward show or display'? Or that it has the nature of a panegyric, in which case it is pertinent to ask which person or institution is being publicly praised?<br /><br />When John XXIII called the Council he wanted the doctrine of the Church set out in a way that would be more accessible to mid-20th century man, but 'eodem sensu eademque sententia'. I would have thought that clarification of concepts was germane to achieving this. <br /><br />In the first quotation I can see O'Malley's point, although it seems to be considerably overstated. But the second quotation appears to be wrenched out of context.<br /><br />The language used in the Vatican II documents is not that of the Council of Trent, nor would anyone expect it to be, given the Council's objectives. But they (the documents) are not the Oracles of Delphi or the Dead Sea Scrolls. To maintain that they cannot be read and understood without 'interpretation' by so-called experts is gnosticism, pure and simple.John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-13982066699219980302021-12-20T22:02:28.524-05:002021-12-20T22:02:28.524-05:00"If you are expecting the documents of Vatica..."If you are expecting the documents of Vatican Two to be read and understood like the documents from many earlier councils, then your expectation is where the problem lies, not with the documents."<br /><br />TRANSLATION: <br />"If Vatican II seems to contradict what you see the leadership of the Church doing, then it's your fault. You're just not smart enough to understand the lofty great things we have planned for you."<br /><br />I guess I'm just old fashioned, but previous Councils might have used academic language, but the language was direct and clear--just as Jesus taught us. There is nothing in the gospels of the rest of the New Testament that indicates anyone listening to Jesus or the Apostles would have needed a dictionary to understand them. All of this pseudo-intellectual gobbledygook serves no one, save the bureaucracies that have turned out so many great "professional Catholics" and few, if any saints.<br /><br />The average Catholic in the pews isn't dazzled by "abstract metaphysics", "conceptual schemes", "epidiectic literature" or "panegyrics". We just want the truth and we want it direct and with clarity. Serving one's vanity by flashing such a vocabulary about doesn't help the Church--or this discussion, for that matter. I'm sorry--that's probably too complicated. Here's the short version: We all know you went to grad school, Father. You can stop showing off now.Thomas Garretthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09538614041116883278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-20273045854087805322021-12-20T21:39:56.058-05:002021-12-20T21:39:56.058-05:00Thanks Father K--you just confirmed what most of u...Thanks Father K--you just confirmed what most of us have suspected all along: Most of the VII documents are fluff.<br /><br />One more instance of modernity's triumph of style over substance.Jerome Merwickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06683692768402865052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-17245700321945892522021-12-20T18:55:18.915-05:002021-12-20T18:55:18.915-05:00Yet, Father K, post Vatican II only 30 percent of ...Yet, Father K, post Vatican II only 30 percent of OF attendees believe in the Real Presence and millions of Catholics have walked away. Big success story!TJMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07280218128963202431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-66391884063878897162021-12-20T16:19:38.457-05:002021-12-20T16:19:38.457-05:00If you are expecting the documents of Vatican Two ...If you are expecting the documents of Vatican Two to be read and understood like the documents from many earlier councils, then your expectation is where the problem lies, not with the documents.<br /><br />(Too often people read the Book of Revelation for what they think it should be, a book predicting future events or a "road map" to the future, rather than for what it is, a book written in the peculiar style known as apocalyptic. Hence, they get the meaning all wrong. I once heard a discussion between two gentlemen at the West Side YMCA which involved one telling the other that jet fighters were clearly "predicted" in the Book of Revelations.(sic).<br /><br />John W O'Malley, SJ, writes, "Vatican II largely eschewed Sholastic language. It thus moved from the dialectic of winning an argument to the dialogue of finding common ground. It moved from abstract metaphysics to interpersonal "how to be." It moved from grand conceptual schemes or "summae" with hundreds of logically interconnected parts to the humble acceptance of mystery." (What Happened at Vatican II, p 46)<br /><br />Again, "The purpose of the epidiectic genre, the technical name for panegyric in classical treatises on rhetoric, is not so much to clarify concepts as to heoghten appreciation for a person, and even, or an institution and to excite emulation of an ideal." (What Happened at Vatican II, p 47) Fr. Michael J. Kavanaughhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05162547334902814362noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-36343182008093904112021-12-20T15:00:49.109-05:002021-12-20T15:00:49.109-05:00rcg,
Your last point is well taken. Of course, we...rcg,<br /><br />Your last point is well taken. Of course, we could say a lot of social deterioration and economic ruin has followed the implementation of the OF, but even I am not that unfair!TJMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07280218128963202431noreply@blogger.com