tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post4878696994421032614..comments2024-03-18T20:55:55.914-04:00Comments on southern orders: POPE PIUS XI TOLD LAY CATHOLICS TO PARTICIPATE MORE ACTIVELY IN DIVINE WORSHIP, NOT AS MUTE SPECTATORS--1928 AD!Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comBlogger63125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-85720856524407149202013-06-12T12:04:30.602-04:002013-06-12T12:04:30.602-04:00Joseph, your history is spot on, but I'm not s...Joseph, your history is spot on, but I'm not sure the conclusion is valid. Sure America would have been a much better place had Catholics founded her not the Prots, but assuming that were the case, the disaster of V2 would still be in play. It would have destroyed Mass attendence of more America's than it did, but the results would have been the same. Prots are Prots becasue they like their faith fast and loose, I wouldn't presume their attendance numbers would directly translate if they were Cats.Templarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18204866760862707908noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-29505461194818264592013-06-12T07:04:29.447-04:002013-06-12T07:04:29.447-04:00Andy, Ignotus' Descartes...LOL! What would he ...Andy, Ignotus' Descartes...LOL! What would he say, 'I slink, therefore I am?" LOL!Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-8634091876901109682013-06-12T06:25:05.977-04:002013-06-12T06:25:05.977-04:00Once again, Ignotus, it was not me that originally...Once again, Ignotus, it was not me that originally asked the question. It was another blogger. I merely commented on your prevarication. I told you before that I do not ask questions to which I already know the answer. Also, you are confusing dishonest and clever. Look them up. Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-85435627135236521882013-06-11T23:29:33.908-04:002013-06-11T23:29:33.908-04:00Fr. Kavanaugh,
We're making progress, now at ...Fr. Kavanaugh,<br /><br />We're making progress, now at least I have you putting "actor" in quotes. Perhaps you're coming to understand the mistake you made.<br /><br />BTW, Gene has you backed into a corner...you need to channel your interior Decartes to get out of this one...friendly advice.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03009356356243871772noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-38952957155550911312013-06-11T21:25:13.681-04:002013-06-11T21:25:13.681-04:00John Nolan,
'Sorry for the delayed ...John Nolan,<br /> 'Sorry for the delayed response but I just got home from work at 8:30 Eastern Daylight Time (about 15 minutes ago). <br /><br /> What I meant in my reference to Henry VIII and his daughter Elizabeth I was that, had England remained a Catholic country then the English would've brought Catholicism with them to my side of the pond (as did the Spanish and the French). <br /><br />In the American South, where I have grown up and lived my life, Catholics have, historically, comprised all of about 2 to 3 percent of the population. Most native, long-term Southerners (at least where I live in inland southest Georgia) have English surnames and are usually protestants of some stripe or another. Most are Baptists, or United Methodists (an offshoot from Anglicanism). The coastal areas settled by the British still have some historic Episcopal (Anglican) churches. As people settled further into the interior lands they usually did not have access to Anglican clergy and their connections to Anglicanism were further eroded after the Revolutionary War. There are also a good many southerners with Irish surnames whose ancestors drifted away from Catholicism as they settled in more remote areas with little or no access to priests. This same thing could've happened to my Irish ancestors but, by the Grace of God, they stuck with Catholicism even though they had no church near them. They instructed their children at home and a priest would visit them (and say Mass in their home) about twice a year.<br /><br />This resulting Southern protestant primacy is directly traceable (in a large part, in my view of history) to what Henry and Elizabeth did in transforming England into a protestant country which then (later) settled the part of the country where I live. When Georgia was founded in 1733, Catholicism was illegal here (as I believe it was in England at that time). <br /><br />So, if it hadn't been for Henry and Elizabeth most of my fellow south Georgians (we have high church attendance levels in the South, even at the little Baptist church near my house) would, arguably now be Catholics and we would have had a lot more priests and churches to serve them--even spread out in smaller communities (which is more like what you had in England with little village churches with resident country vicars). A southern Catholic version of this would be my ideal world (but with the Latin Mass)!<br /><br />Yes, you're right that Henry and Elizabeth didn't cause Vatican II and maybe if they hadn't forced religious change in England then maybe my putative church would be Novus Ordo. There again, maybe it wouldn't because we would've had a very different world (a majority Catholic English-speaking world). <br /><br />Joseph Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00036852763902493131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-51108480524035655922013-06-11T20:22:15.824-04:002013-06-11T20:22:15.824-04:00Pin/Gene - I answered the question. It wasn't...Pin/Gene - I answered the question. It wasn't the answer you wanted or the answer you thought you were going to get, but I answered your question.<br /><br />And you didn't ask a question in the first place. You made a statement in the form of a question so that you could use my response to your advantage in arguing with me.<br /><br />Sorry, I'm WAY cleverer than that.Pater Ignotusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-31604300217647598412013-06-11T19:54:15.386-04:002013-06-11T19:54:15.386-04:00Ignotus, You never answered the question. You mere...Ignotus, You never answered the question. You merely prevaricated and said some BS about answering it every time you said Mass, which is to say you did not answer it. You even warned Millie a while back, when he was asked the same question, not to answer it because it was a "trap." LOL! How can the question, "Do you believe in the bodily resurrection of Christ" be a trap? What a hoot! Yeah, the trap is that if you poseurs answer it the jig is up.Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-82425792666942609072013-06-11T17:40:32.858-04:002013-06-11T17:40:32.858-04:00Andy - Your friend Z used the term "actor&quo...Andy - Your friend Z used the term "actor" in the same way I did.<br /><br />Marc - Sorry, the point regarding nomenclature is that you got it wrong. "Ecumenical" and "Interreligous" are not interchangeable.<br /><br />Regarding the First Commandment, first, do you expect those who do not believe that the Commandments are divine revelation to follow them? Second, can you name a Christian at the event who prayed to a false god?<br /><br />The invitation to the participants came from the bishop of the diocese who has the right to do so if he wishes. This kind of interreligious prayer service does not constitute sinful behavior.<br /><br />You have judged the bishop who extended the invitation. You have judged the popes who issued the guidelines for such ecumenical and interreligious gatherings. You have judged them, setting yourself above their authority.<br /><br />I am not deluded - I am following the guidelines approved by the Church. If you contend that the Church is deluded in this instance, you are again setting yourself above the authority of the pope and bishops who do not share your views.<br /><br />I do not despise you, but I do intend to keep showing you where you are wrong.<br /><br />Pin/Gene - I have answered the question. You can assume all you want - you are, of course, free to assume wrongly.<br /><br />Pater Ignotusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-15225811838097294122013-06-11T17:33:06.344-04:002013-06-11T17:33:06.344-04:00Oh, man, Andy! I had forgotten all about that Ass...Oh, man, Andy! I had forgotten all about that Assisi World Day of Prayer thing back in '86. What a hoot! That was when JPII hung out with Dolly Llama and all the libs had ecumenical orgasms. I'll bet the Perrier concession was jammed and the bong shops sold out early...Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-77445753991876838182013-06-11T16:28:27.752-04:002013-06-11T16:28:27.752-04:00"The only conceivable reason for meeting in a..."The only conceivable reason for meeting in a worship service with Buddhists, Muslims, and other heathen would be to try to convert them to Catholicism."<br /><br />Oh Gene, Gene, Gene...haven't you ever heard of Asissi I and II? Good Father Kavanaugh is emulating Bl. John Paul II and his refined sense of ecumenism, which was obviously much more advanced and ahead of it's time. It was true innovation....<br /><br />/sarcasm<br /><br />You're right, Amos and Hosea would have a lot to say about it.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03009356356243871772noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-89729078941369712952013-06-11T14:42:22.952-04:002013-06-11T14:42:22.952-04:00The only conceivable reason for meeting in a worsh...The only conceivable reason for meeting in a worship service with Buddhists, Muslims, and other heathen would be to try to convert them to Catholicism. Anything else is syncretism/apostasy. Amos and Hosea have a lot to say about this. <br />Of course, we know Kavanaugh and his ilk's reason...he sees the Church as one big global religious melting pot wherein some kind of Christian social ethic can be developed and the huge human and financial resources of the Catholic Church can be used for "social betterment." I mean, after all, he refused to answer the simple, direct question as to whether he believed in the bodily resurrection of Christ and the Real presence in the Eucharist. I can only assume that a Priest who refuses to answer such a simple question about his faith does not believe in those things. All that is left is humanism/social work. So, here is another enemy within the Church who gets a pass from the hierarchy and whose parishioners are being sold a bill of goods...except for those who are there because they are like him. <br />Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-51639332558268059842013-06-11T13:59:53.598-04:002013-06-11T13:59:53.598-04:00Thanks Kavanaugh for proving my point. The Dioces...Thanks Kavanaugh for proving my point. The Diocese of Savannah has nothing for Traditionalist Catholics. <br /><br />We have what we have, and we will tell you it's Traditional, and therefore we must accept it. Or you can accept the choice to get the hell out.<br /><br />How utterly Pastoral of you.Templarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18204866760862707908noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-25072282667974538502013-06-11T13:47:56.320-04:002013-06-11T13:47:56.320-04:00"Nomenclature (and reading comprehension) mat..."Nomenclature (and reading comprehension) matter."<br /><br />Kinda like you misuing the term "actor."<br /><br />Just sayin'....Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03009356356243871772noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-81188276273053462922013-06-11T13:45:42.438-04:002013-06-11T13:45:42.438-04:00I'll set aside the issue of nomenclature becau...I'll set aside the issue of nomenclature because it is simply another example of your missing the point. <br /><br />You claim: "There is no violation of the First Commandment in an interfaith prayer service." <br /><br />Praying to false gods clearly violates the First Commandment, yes?<br /><br />You claim: "A pagan is free to offer his/her prayers to whatever god they wish to worship." <br /><br />According to civil law, yes. According to Divine Law, no. At any rate, they certainly have no right to do so in a Catholic cathedral.<br /><br />You claim: "Bottom Line One: You reject the Church's teaching and practice in this regard. I do not, and neither does Fr. McDonald."<br /><br />Yes, I reject your sinful practice. I likewise reject it when the Pope does it. <br /><br />You claim: "Bottom Line Two: You, as an individual Catholic do not have the authority (or the education or the experience) to judge the pope and bishops in this or ANY regard." <br /><br />Where have I judged a bishop or the Pope? I judge the action as violating the First Commandment. It is objectively grave matter. I judge your action add objectively sinful. I don't presume to judge the state of your soul because you appear truly deluded into thinking you're correct and your bishop refuses to stand up to you for some reason and correct you. <br /><br />You claim: "Bottom Line Three: If you think you are competent to judge the pope and bishops, you join other who think like this in one of the major errors of Protestantism."<br /><br />You'd like me better if I were a Prot. You'd invite me to the Cathedral and join me in prayer. But since I hold to the actual faith, you despise me and go out of your way in your attempt to show me I'm wrong. If only you had such dealings with the Prots, Buddhists, and Muslims... But, in your false charity, you are content to let them wallow in error and user your buildings for their demon-influenced prayers. Marcnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-35231137542532019202013-06-11T13:25:03.150-04:002013-06-11T13:25:03.150-04:00Marc - Nomenclature (and reading comprehension) ma...Marc - Nomenclature (and reading comprehension) matter. You don't expect that if, in court, you defend a person charged with a felony as if it were merely a misdemeanor, that the judge would say, "Oh, well, nomenclature doesn't matter" now do you?<br /><br />I was not the least "indifferent" to the differences between and among the faiths represented at the prayer service for peace. While you may find the differences confusing or hard to understand, cloudy or uncertain, I do not. No, indifferentism was not part of the evening.<br /><br />There is no violation of the First Commandment in an interfaith prayer service.<br /><br />A pagan is free to offer his/her prayers to whatever god they wish to worship. No Catholic present at that service offered a pinch of anything to any false god.<br /><br />Bottom Line One: You reject the Church's teaching and practice in this regard. I do not, and neither does Fr. McDonald<br /><br />Bottom Line Two: You, as an individual Catholic do not have the authority (or the education or the experience) to judge the pope and bishops in this or ANY regard.<br /><br />Bottom Line Three: If you think you are competent to judge the pope and bishops, you join other who think like this in one of the major errors of Protestantism.<br />Pater Ignotusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-87046638824666921572013-06-11T10:37:02.317-04:002013-06-11T10:37:02.317-04:00Marc,
I have one word to summarize your last post...Marc,<br /><br />I have one word to summarize your last post (which was brilliant, btw).<br /><br />CREDO.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03009356356243871772noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-14350798181132958612013-06-11T08:46:27.133-04:002013-06-11T08:46:27.133-04:00Oh, I read the article, Father. The nomenclature i...Oh, I read the article, Father. The nomenclature isn't the problem so much as your indifferentism and giving a platform to apostates and non-Catholic, false "religions" inside a Catholic Cathedral. <br /><br />From the article you claim I didn't read: "He has asked a Savannah rabbi and the local imam, the religious leader of Islam, to say prayers in their faith traditions. <b>And Thich-Nu Hue-Hanh, a Vietnamese nun new to Upchurch's temple, will give Buddhist prayers as the ceremony closes.</b>"<br /><br />Buddhist prayers in a Catholic Cathedral, offered by someone belonging to the same Buddhist "temple" as an apostate Catholic. Wow.<br /><br />And I have previously expressed my disagreement with Fr. McDonald's interfaith services on this blog. So, I'm not sure what your point is there... <br /><br />All this serves to reinforce Templar's point that the Novus Ordo Church in general and the Diocese of Savannah in particular offer nothing to faithful Catholics, who wouldn't participate in this sort of event because they recognize it violates the First Commandment to do so. <br /><br />Our forebears in the faith literally died before offering a pinch of incense to a false god. You, on the other hand, invite a pagan to the cathedral to offer prayers to a non-deity and dare to call that religion. Marchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13510317669833026685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-13817688775543049842013-06-11T08:09:31.472-04:002013-06-11T08:09:31.472-04:00Joseph Johnson
I sympathize, but Henry VIII and E...Joseph Johnson<br /><br />I sympathize, but Henry VIII and Elizabeth I were not responsible for Vatican II and its aftermath, which would have ensured that your putative local Catholic Church would probably have a Novus Ordo Mass once a month (provided the bishop hadn't closed it down).<br /><br />On a practical level, could you not form a 'stable group', which need not be confined to one parish, and petition for the EF according to the provisions of Summorum Pontificum? John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-83904583230557292872013-06-11T07:31:55.995-04:002013-06-11T07:31:55.995-04:00Marc, I read all that from the site you listed. Ka...Marc, I read all that from the site you listed. Kavanaugh says the church he envisions will be "catholic with a little 'c,' meaning universal." I think that pretty much says it all. Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-52596660125596252212013-06-11T06:58:13.973-04:002013-06-11T06:58:13.973-04:00The Holy Spirit, through Christ's promise to H...The Holy Spirit, through Christ's promise to His Church, will effect Christ's graces through any Liturgy that is even minimally correct. If an atheist runs across someone who wants to be baptized, and the atheist baptizes the person with water and the proper words, then the Baptism is valid. If a smug and misguided apostate Priest likes ecumenical services, sloppy liturgy, humanistic theology, and crummy texts by unbelievers, God will still effect His graces through that Priest when that Priest is in persona Christi. <br />That does not mean that God is placing His blessing on such heterodox practices, only that He loves us and the Church in spite of those who would destroy it or make a mockery of His Sacrifice...Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-13399088879083790202013-06-11T06:33:12.518-04:002013-06-11T06:33:12.518-04:00Marc - It was not an "ecumenical" event,...Marc - It was not an "ecumenical" event, it was an interfaith or interreligious event. There is a world of difference.<br /><br />If you had read the article you would have found, <br /><br />"Thursday's prayer for peace service is believed to be the first "inter-religious" or "interfaith" service in the Cathedral of St. John the Baptist, sponsored by the Catholic Diocese of Savannah, said the Rev. Michael Kavanaugh, director of the office of ecumenism for the diocese."<br /><br />This is not unlike the annual Thanksgiving services in which Fr. McDonald is a participant...<br /><br />Pater Ignotusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-72442998788714351352013-06-10T20:20:18.106-04:002013-06-10T20:20:18.106-04:00Father,
You'll excuse us for distrusting the ...Father,<br /><br />You'll excuse us for distrusting the opinion of the man who set up the first ecumenical prayer service at his Cathedral when he claims to know what constitutes the One True Faith and its Tradition. <br /><br />http://savannahnow.com/stories/011902/LOCkavanaugh.shtmlMarchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13510317669833026685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-67487715788948281112013-06-10T19:50:24.108-04:002013-06-10T19:50:24.108-04:00Yes, I know that life's not always fair.
Ho...Yes, I know that life's not always fair. <br /><br />However, one of my "pet peeve" sensibilities is the inequities that have to do with where one lives (by choice or not).<br /><br />I am a Southerner and, more specifically, a South Georgian. Both sides of my family have lived in southeast Georgia since well before the War Between the States (the latest comer being my Irish Catholic great-great grandfather, a refugee of the potato famine--he was in south Georgia in the 1850 census). <br /><br />Though my religion is Roman Catholic, my way of speaking, eating habits, and many of my attitudes are very much formed by the larger southern culture. To make a long-term move to any other part of the country or world would be like turning my back on my family and changing my surname. Where I live is a part of who I am. I believe that long-time Southerners, more than any other sectional group hold to this mentality. Often it is tied to generational land ownership (living on the old family homeplace, etc.). <br /> <br />Given my mentality about the impossibility of moving, it chafes against the very fiber of my being for someone to suggest that those who want what Templar and I want in the way we can practice our Catholic religion (with the availability of the older Latin Liturgy) should have to forfeit what we call home (and, for me, my heritage) to have this simple need satisfied.<br /><br />Yes, the world is not a fair place--if it were, my "land of perfect" would be all Catholic with little country (not just city) churches where the EF is celebrated every day. I often tell my convert wife that I hold Henry VIII and Elizabeth I personally responsible for our not having such a world in south Georgia (with a Catholic church within walking distance of my rural home rather than a Baptist one). Joseph Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00036852763902493131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-89483098193136038412013-06-10T17:54:34.593-04:002013-06-10T17:54:34.593-04:00Temp - It is entirely your choice -you are not bei...Temp - It is entirely your choice -you are not being forced by anyone - to drive to an EF parish. You are not being victimized by the OF, by priests like me, or by the Diocese of Savannah.<br /><br />You do label OF parishes non-Traditional: "...the NO Church simply has nothing for the Traditional Catholic." If an NO parish has nothing to offer a "Traditional" Catholics, then those parishes are not, in your view, holding to the Tradition of the Church. <br /><br />The fact is, they are Traditional, but just no to your liking.<br /><br />The One true Faith can be found in every parish in this diocese.<br /><br />You further your "victim" status by saying that the faith was stolen from you, that it was created in a test tube, that you were spit upon. <br /><br />Boo Hoo.<br /><br />I will indeed keep the Faith that the Church, not a pseudo-victim, gives us all.<br /><br /> <br /><br />Pater Igtnotusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-19522506480454071742013-06-10T17:35:34.854-04:002013-06-10T17:35:34.854-04:00Fr. Kavanaugh,
"No one makes you drive past ...Fr. Kavanaugh,<br /><br />"No one makes you drive past OF parishes - that is your own choice."<br /><br />Not if it is a matter of conscience. If one is compelled by a sense of religion to seek the most authentic expression, then the choice is only one. It does not exist in the Novus Ordo. Don't misunderstand, there is truth in the Sacramentality of the Novus Ordo, but it is not the most authentic expression. For as Benedict XVI stated, it is banal, on-the-spot, and not in continuity.<br /><br />"No one other than you labeled OF parishes as being non-Traditional. That is your own choice."<br /><br />That isn't always the case either. Many Catholic parishes around the world pride (yes, pride) themselves on being non-Traditional. They pride themselves on being progressive and liberal. So, that is not always a choice either.<br /><br />"No one is forcing you to stay where you are, not even your employment. That is your own choice."<br /><br />In this recession we must often times work where we can. It isn't always as easy as, "Oh, I'll just find a job 3 blocks from church." Poppycock. Often times we work in an industry or a place which is less than ideal.<br /><br />"And, if you don't find the "The One True Faith" in any OF parish, that, too is your own choice."<br /><br />Faith is a matter of choice, you're right, but it has to be properly proclaimed and taught. If one goes to a parish which teaches heterodoxy, then no, it is not his choice that he doesn't find the One, True Faith. It is the culpability of the priest and staff which withhold the Faith in favor of an agenda.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03009356356243871772noreply@blogger.com