tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post4448219256154542619..comments2024-03-28T11:36:20.629-04:00Comments on southern orders: UNLESS THE WORLD WAS RAPTURED AND I WAS LEFT BEHIND ON MY 59TH, I WILL CONTINUE TO BLOG FOR THE INDEFINITE FUTUREFr. Allan J. McDonaldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-28668901917614990962012-12-21T18:10:56.061-05:002012-12-21T18:10:56.061-05:00Agreed with most of the above. But a Requiem Mass ...Agreed with most of the above. But a Requiem Mass is not the same as a funeral Mass; it is specifically a Mass whose introit begins 'Requiem aeternam dona eis Domine'. And this is never used for infants.<br /><br />Also, it is but one part of the funeral rites; in medieval England even poor people would make provision for Dirige (Matins), Placebo (Vespers) and Requiem (Mass). A dying person would want shrift (confession) and housel (viaticum).<br /> <br />A word to Pater Ignotus. 'Bidding' cannot be a slavishly literal translation since it is quintessentially English. The Prayer of the Faithful at Mass has been called the 'Bidding Prayer(s)' in England since its introduction in 1965, because in the Sarum Use 'bidding the rede' was traditionally done in English at this point. John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-29397461039396415502012-12-21T13:30:44.569-05:002012-12-21T13:30:44.569-05:00At any rate, the EF words
Who straightway grantes...At any rate, the EF words<br /><br /><b>Who straightway grantest life everlasting to every little child . . . even as we believe Thou hast done this day to the soul of this child: grant . . . that we may serve Thee with clean hearts and be joined in heaven with the blessed children for evermore.</b><br /><br />amount to the same "sort of canonization" of the baptized child that Father M originally pointed to (as a new richness) in the OF prayer.<br /><br />Nothing much "new under the sun"?Henry Edwardsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-66834594228816932742012-12-21T13:24:26.098-05:002012-12-21T13:24:26.098-05:00Happy Birthday, Father McDonald!Happy Birthday, Father McDonald!Carol H.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02475843499648488542noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-39281029365085167332012-12-21T11:25:16.271-05:002012-12-21T11:25:16.271-05:00Marc,
You're correct. There are several chan...Marc,<br /><br />You're correct. There are several changes for an unbaptized infant. There were no changes in 1962's ceremony as opposed to 1958, save the normal liturgical reforms.<br /><br />You are quite right to note what Dom Gueranger put forth.<br /><br />Henry,<br /><br />You are correct as well, for an infant who was baptized.<br /><br />----<br /><br />There are a couple of differences which must be attested to, I won't list all of them, but there are several major ones, which I will comment on.<br /><br />1. The vestment color is always white. Reason is that an infant has not reached the age of reason and therefore not culpable for any sins. Remember black is to remind us of our fallen nature.<br /><br />2. The processional cross is without a staff. This is done, not for any theological reason, but because of the symbolism of a child being "closer to God."<br /><br />3. There is no toll. If bells are rung they are of a joyful nature and psalms of joy are sung at the gravesite.<br /><br />But all of those are typical of a baptized infant.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03009356356243871772noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-3714296655043910152012-12-21T10:59:20.081-05:002012-12-21T10:59:20.081-05:00Yes, Henry. And I appreciate your posting it.
My...Yes, Henry. And I appreciate your posting it. <br /><br />My follow up question is what is the protocol for an unbaptized infant in the pre-Conciliar Missals?Marcnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-6937060446259672642012-12-21T10:47:04.633-05:002012-12-21T10:47:04.633-05:00Marc, does not the 1962 text I've boldfaced ab...Marc, does not the 1962 text I've boldfaced above imply that the infant being buried has been baptized--has been "born again at the baptismal font"? Which was my purpose in emphasizing it.Henry Edwardsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-21746062588882391242012-12-21T09:54:10.172-05:002012-12-21T09:54:10.172-05:00"The homily is not a time to be explaining th..."The homily is not a time to be explaining the unfortunate nature of literal some translations."<br /><br />Hmm . . . What better time to explain the prayers of the Mass, perhaps especially if their translations leave room for richer explication? (And I'm not sure I've ever seen a collect that didn't.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-36522688983488444992012-12-21T09:52:20.764-05:002012-12-21T09:52:20.764-05:00So, then is the 1962 a standard Requiem for an unb...So, then is the 1962 a standard Requiem for an unbaptized infant? <br /><br />I believe it was formerly the case that the unbaptized were not to be mentioned at the altar (according to liturgical expert Dom. Gueranger). <br /><br />Perhaps someone knows the answer (and how that answer has changed) over time. Marcnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-60086161839934329642012-12-21T09:49:44.220-05:002012-12-21T09:49:44.220-05:00Marc, the prayer at the 1962 burial of an infant:
...Marc, the prayer at the 1962 burial of an infant:<br /><br />Almighty and most merciful God, Who straightway grantest life everlasting to every little child <b>who goeth forth from this world after being born again in the baptismal font</b>, without any merit of his, even as we believe Thou hast done this day to the soul of this child: grant, we beseech The, O Lord, through the intercession of Blessed Mary, ever Virgin, and of all Thy Saints, that we may serve Thee with clean hearts and be joined in heaven with the blessed children for evermore. Through Christ our Lord, .....Henry Edwardsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-19788650458358498302012-12-21T09:33:05.456-05:002012-12-21T09:33:05.456-05:00The 2012 Roman Missal has different orations for u...The 2012 Roman Missal has different orations for unbaptized children.Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-57149772721485763212012-12-21T09:30:11.790-05:002012-12-21T09:30:11.790-05:00Henry, only the baptized, correct?
I wouldn't...Henry, only the baptized, correct?<br /><br />I wouldn't want to be the priest offering the requiem for an unbaptized infant. Difficult pastoral situation there. Marcnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-82816898964058455382012-12-21T09:19:58.834-05:002012-12-21T09:19:58.834-05:00Ignotus, I have no problem with what you say. Havi...Ignotus, I have no problem with what you say. Having done, as a one time Presbyterian minister, far too many children's funerals, there is still the pastoral issue of God's perfect and permissive will and how to address this in a way that can be understood and that is comforting to the loved ones. <br />I do not find any problem with "who at your bidding," either.<br />We had a prayer that I used often and liked quite a bit:<br />"Bless, O lord, the departed soul of our brother/sister, whom we love and now no longer see. Grant him your peace, make your Holy Light shine upon him and, in your infinite love and mercy, work in him the purpose of your good and perfect will. Amen."<br />Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-14411659752731711302012-12-21T08:59:07.248-05:002012-12-21T08:59:07.248-05:00I might have mentioned that The Burial of Infants ...I might have mentioned that The Burial of Infants is for those children who have not reached the age of reason.Henry Edwardsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-15436334441332132512012-12-21T08:55:46.960-05:002012-12-21T08:55:46.960-05:00Actually, the 1962 does have a service for The Bur...Actually, the 1962 does have a service for The Burial of Infants, including<br /><br />I. The Meeting of the Body<br />II. The Votive Mass of the Holy Angels, with the Gloria said (unlike at a Requiem Mass)<br />III. The Prayers and Burial<br /><br />I believe John Nolan mentioned this a while back.Henry Edwardsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-72523916043509690082012-12-21T08:55:43.191-05:002012-12-21T08:55:43.191-05:00Couldn't help but notice the word "Raptur...Couldn't help but notice the word "Rapture" in your headline. I guess I'm guilty of it too, but that's an exclusively Protestant term, the result of Fundamentalist beliefs and first appeared around the 19th century. It's a reference to a misinterpretation of 1 Thessalonians 4:17. There are a couple of good Catholic books on the subject, especially <em>The Rapture Trap</em> by Paul Thigpen, which debunk the fundamentalist view.<br /><br />Sorry for being so un-ecumencial. I just thought someone should say something.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-2555073962362660662012-12-21T08:34:35.786-05:002012-12-21T08:34:35.786-05:00"Who at your bidding..." is an example o..."Who at your bidding..." is an example of why a "slavishly literal" translation is not always the best choice.<br /><br />The homily is not a time to be explaining the unfortunate nature of literal some translations.<br /><br />(Pin/Gene will read this simple disagreement as "Modernist" but it is not meant that way at all.)<br /><br />I find the first choice, "Most compassionate God..." most acceptable.<br /><br />Pater Ignotusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-8941483623330112752012-12-21T06:13:21.231-05:002012-12-21T06:13:21.231-05:00Thanks Gene, that makes complete sense and I would...Thanks Gene, that makes complete sense and I would hope preachers of children's funerals would make that abundantly clear.Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-51348591366869288612012-12-21T06:09:42.258-05:002012-12-21T06:09:42.258-05:00Re: "at your bidding." Theologically thi...Re: "at your bidding." Theologically this refers to the perfect and permissive will of God allowing the sinful world to take its course. It does not mean that God caused the deaths or that he actively "willed" them. "At your bidding" or at your "calling" means simply that God has called the children to Him through the tragedies of human history. Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.com