tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post4439817549107997835..comments2024-03-28T05:17:04.006-04:00Comments on southern orders: SPEAKING OF CHILDREN'S MASSES AND CLOWN MASSES, WELL THEY ARE INDEED ALIVE BUT CERTAINLY NOT WELLFr. Allan J. McDonaldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comBlogger45125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-55484616172108801262014-05-15T05:17:44.747-04:002014-05-15T05:17:44.747-04:00"Any comment that is vitriolic and disrespect..."Any comment that is vitriolic and disrespectful of the laity in general, and Pope Francis, bishops and priests in particular will not be posted!"<br /><br />So when bishops and clergy (one notices that deacons are apparently fair game for criticism - but why them ?)ruin the Church, we are meant to pretend that they don't, or to applaud them when they do ? <br /><br />If Christ - who called St Peter "Satan"; very "civil" that; not "disprectful" at all - had posted his comment, His comment would have been forbidden. If OTOH it would have been allowed, the equally justified criticisms of the much-persecuted Faithful ought also to be allowed. We live in a Church in which false teachers are beatified and canonised, in which Catholic attitudes are co-opted in order to destroy the Church, in which the liturgical abuses committed by Popes are defended and praised - but lo, we must on no account criticise this madness & impiety; it is better for the Church to be destroyed, than for the evildoers in the clergy to be called what they deserve :( Further than this, human respect cannot go :( James https://www.blogger.com/profile/10778088696977639132noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-263160275853936832014-05-15T05:03:19.887-04:002014-05-15T05:03:19.887-04:00"WHO ACTUALLY LIKES THIS CRAP?"
## The ..."WHO ACTUALLY LIKES THIS CRAP?"<br /><br />## The "evil beasts" - as Scripture says - who inflicted it on the Church: specifically, the "sons of perdition" the Pope has recently canonised, and the one he intends to beatify in October. <br /><br />This is their doing, for they are the Popes who took so much trouble to harm the Church & to denature her. They aborted the faith and piety of millions, while attending only to the far less serious abortion of the body. Blind guides indeed ! Such are Saints of the "New Pentecost". James https://www.blogger.com/profile/10778088696977639132noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-46357542061566516382012-12-08T21:17:51.226-05:002012-12-08T21:17:51.226-05:00Now, you see, Ignotus, again you are not getting i...Now, you see, Ignotus, again you are not getting it. This young waitress offered a very cogent explanation of one possible theological/philosophiual context for a clown Mass. It is not the only one, but I'll bet it is a common philosophical posture of those who support such drivel. No, she was not accusing the celebrants of being nihilists. However, such behavior does trivialize the Mass and make a mockery of the Sacrifice. I think the waitress was pretty much on the money. BTW, she did not read the Camus; I talked her into reading Chesterton...nothing like Orthodoxy in the afterglow. Yeah, we'll go to Confession...in a little while. LOL!Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-47205582355818176112012-12-08T15:01:19.469-05:002012-12-08T15:01:19.469-05:00Oh, just wait until the first Sunday in January at...Oh, just wait until the first Sunday in January at our 5:00 PM Mass and you'll judge for yourself.Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-10834592093993480632012-12-08T14:57:19.428-05:002012-12-08T14:57:19.428-05:00No "smoke and mirrors" here, Good Father...No "smoke and mirrors" here, Good Father. I asked that question on December 1st at 9:42 a.m. and have wondered if you would deign to answer.<br /><br />What's sauce for the goose.....Pater Ignotusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-56110118468780961772012-12-08T14:52:49.048-05:002012-12-08T14:52:49.048-05:00Answer my question first, smoke and mirrors don...Answer my question first, smoke and mirrors don't work with me. Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-37259796745086476992012-12-08T14:45:22.543-05:002012-12-08T14:45:22.543-05:00"I am convinced that if the Catholic Mass ret..."I am convinced that if the Catholic Mass returned simply to mandating that Holy Communion be distributed to the Laity as they kneel in adoration, we would see a major shift toward humility in our worship and more Catholics in the future "strongly affiliated with the Church."<br /><br />Evidence please.<br /><br />Pater Ignotusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-67774381552201806462012-12-08T13:55:32.776-05:002012-12-08T13:55:32.776-05:00Pin/Gene - I do not treat you condescendingly. Yo...Pin/Gene - I do not treat you condescendingly. You mistake correction for condescension and disagreement for contempt. I can't control how you perceive things, and I don't wish to do so.<br /><br />And your suggesting that my use of sarcasm is unacceptable is the worst case of the pot calling the kettle black I have seen.<br /><br />Keep enjoying your beers - without, thank goodness, my company. And now that, having read the minds of the priests with face paint - you assert they are nihilists who mock happiness, perverting the message of the mass - I'm sure you will stop asking me why they did it. I knew that you had exercised these amazing mind-reading powers of yours and that you "knew" all along! <br /><br />Congrats.Pater Ignotusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-31407215327653073912012-12-08T13:25:04.168-05:002012-12-08T13:25:04.168-05:00"Hey, waitress honey!"
"Yes?"
..."Hey, waitress honey!"<br />"Yes?"<br />"Are you Catholic?"<br />"And Irish...wanna' fight about it?"<br />"Actually, no, I was wondering what you make of this clown Mass thing."<br />"Well, I believe it to be an effort to capture the existential moment when Kerygma intersects the nihilism of a post-Christian society. The clown represents the duality of an essentially meaningless world vis a vis the individual struggle to find joy or contentment through the expression of our common humanity. The Christ-event of the Mass becomes an existential renewal of our will to find meaning in the void through a celebration of the life of Jesus, the Truly Good Man. Thus, the Christ-event becomes the inner apotheosis of our truest nature expressed in community. Christ is, essentially, the Existential Hero."<br /><br />"Damn, honey, that's really good. Hey, what say after you get off we go to my place and celebrate our common humanity?"<br /><br />"I thought you'd never ask...you gonna' bring Zorro there with you?"<br /><br />"Nah, he's gonna' stay here and drink."<br /><br />"Cool. Can I bring my Camus to read later?"<br /><br />"Sure, Honey. You can bring anything you want to..."<br /><br />Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-87824604542648078332012-12-08T12:30:29.799-05:002012-12-08T12:30:29.799-05:00Now, Ignotus, you said you were a well-educated Pr...Now, Ignotus, you said you were a well-educated Priest, but your reading comprehension is really lacking. I acknowledged the fact that you have nevr participated in a clown Mass. However, what I said was that your positions and statements regarding many liturgical and social issues are a part of the basis for such nonsense as clown Masses.<br /><br />Asserting that you do not have contempt for Fr. Mac doesn't go very far when, on countless occasions, you have addressed him scornfully, sarcastically, and condescendingly. Don't give me that "no contempt" crap. You treat most of us in a condescending manner, which is both ironic and humorous. <br /><br />Now, how 'bout another beer..." You know, this clown thing is odd, Fr. Clowns in literature and drama are often associated with the nihilism that underlies the appearance of happiness. Surely, that isn't the message of the Mass. Then, in circuses, clowns are merely silly and zany, which is not really happiness or joy, but rather a facile mockery of those emotions. That can't be the message. So, what do you think? I mean you are theologically educated and an observer of culture?" (Damn, that waitress gets cuter with every beer.) Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-56058231963561690312012-12-08T12:00:13.816-05:002012-12-08T12:00:13.816-05:00Illicits rubrics? Evidence pleaseIllicits rubrics? Evidence pleaseFr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-15150890048811819672012-12-08T11:50:06.490-05:002012-12-08T11:50:06.490-05:00Pin/Gene - I have never espoused anything that wou...Pin/Gene - I have never espoused anything that would encourage or support clown masses. I disagree with you and others, and you read INTO that that I support clown masses. That notion comes entirely from you, not from me.<br /><br />I do not have contempt for the EF. Again, you read that I disagree, and morph that into contempt. Nor do I have contempt for Fr. McDonald. I disagree with 99% of his social analysis, his prescriptions for the "restoration" of Catholic identity, and his rubrically illicit behaviour on the altar. Disagreement is not contempt.<br /><br />My opinion is that such clown masses are silly and should not be done. <br /><br />If you want to know what they were trying to convey, ask them.Pater Igntousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-39820958418613871692012-12-08T11:30:15.853-05:002012-12-08T11:30:15.853-05:00Ignotus, I am indeed glad to hear that you have ne...Ignotus, I am indeed glad to hear that you have never participated in a clown Mass, in spite of the fact that many of the positions you have espoused on this blog, as well as your obvious contempt for the TLM and Priests like Fr. MacDonald, are the basis for such nonsense. <br />Once again, you are avoiding my question.I think it is a good and fair one. I am sure you have an opinion, as you have one about everything else on the blog. Since we, you and I, differ so markedly in our views on things, I would like to hear what someone of your theological/ecumenical stance has to say by way of understanding this phenomenon. Pretend like this is a theological discussion over beer in a tavern between a cradle Catholic Priest and a former Calvinist theologian/pastor become Catholic:<br />"Ah, Fr. Kavanaugh, this cold Killians' certainly hits the spot after spending all afternoon re-reading Calvin's Institutes on the doctrine of Total Depravity in light of my renewed reading of Augustine from my now Catholic perspective...say, did you see those morons in that picture saying Mass in clown suits? (Takes a sip of beer and smiles at cute waitress.) What in the Hell do you suppose they were trying to convey?"<br />Fr. Kavanaugh:........Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-3583893451137271722012-12-08T11:13:37.133-05:002012-12-08T11:13:37.133-05:00They do it because they don't see anything wro...They do it because they don't see anything wrong with it. Because hardly any priest ordained since the mid-1960 has had any liturgical formation worth talking about, and this now includes archbishops. The next pope will be from Bregantini's generation (now there's a sobering thought ...) John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-56950780568616880192012-12-08T10:07:22.358-05:002012-12-08T10:07:22.358-05:00Pin/Gene - I am being honest. In 27 years as a pr...Pin/Gene - I am being honest. In 27 years as a priest and 54 being a Catholic, not once have I encountered, let alone celebrated, a clown mass. You are beginning to believe Good Father McDonald's disingenuous hyperbole.<br /><br />I am a very well educated priest, as you so rightly state. Thank you.<br /><br />I cannot tell you what reason these priests had for celebrating the mass as they did. If you want to know, ask them.Pater Ignotusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-6874361525978151532012-12-08T09:32:57.260-05:002012-12-08T09:32:57.260-05:00Ignotus, You are being disingenuous. Clown Masses ...Ignotus, You are being disingenuous. Clown Masses have been a widespread phenomenon since Vat II. The subject has been mentioned on this blog a number of times. This indicates that there is some rationale for clown attire being worn by the Priest that is distributive across Catholicism. Since you are a, presumably, well-educated Priest from around the era of Vat II and its sequellae, please give us some explanation of what is being expressed here. Pretend I am your parishioner (God forbid)and that I have come to you puzzled and concerned at this apparent sacrilige which has tried my faith and caused me to ask disturbing questions. I am asking you a theological question, Ignotus. I am not asking for your subjective opinion. I am asking for a reasoned theologically cogent answer: What is the theological statement being made at a clown Mass...any clown Mass. Stop prevaricating and give us an answer. Hey, it could clear up all my doubts and convert me to an advocate of the OF and clown Masses. I might even bring peanuts to Mass to feed the elephants and munch on while I watch the trashy looking women in tights on the high wire. C'mon, enlighten me. After all, the Mass is the Greatest Show on Earth, n'est ce pas?Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-71078273873176335392012-12-08T08:11:16.665-05:002012-12-08T08:11:16.665-05:00Pin / Gene - Let me make myself clear. I can'...Pin / Gene - Let me make myself clear. I can't read minds, therefore I don't know what motivated the priests in question to use face paint.<br /><br />You conistently claim to have the ability to know what people believe, what motivates them, what their agenda really is.<br /><br />So I will leave the pointless speculation to you, the expert. And I will suggest again that if you REALLY want to know what motivated these guys, you'd ask them. (But you don't want to know, so I'm not holding my breath.)Pater Ignotusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-35958944641068104002012-12-08T06:06:48.011-05:002012-12-08T06:06:48.011-05:00Ignotus, you need absolutely no help in making you...Ignotus, you need absolutely no help in making yourself look bad. Don't give me so much credit. This is not so difficult. Let me phrase the question differently: When Priests conduct an OF Mass wearing clown make-up or costumes what,in your understanding as a Priest, is the theological statement being made? Clearly, there is a presumption of understanding on the part of the laity and Priests involved. So, what is it? Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-67360715597415926682012-12-07T12:19:16.682-05:002012-12-07T12:19:16.682-05:00Pin/Gene - You can ask them - snail mail or email ...Pin/Gene - You can ask them - snail mail or email - but you don't want to because you aren't interested in their answers. <br /><br />I've already told you I can't answer your questions. Unlike you, I do not have the capacity to read other peoples' minds...<br /><br />You want to puff yourself up by trying to make other look bad. Which is what immature people do. Pater Ignotusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-76295747992006393542012-12-07T06:32:59.659-05:002012-12-07T06:32:59.659-05:00I can't ask them Ignotus, they are in Italy. N...I can't ask them Ignotus, they are in Italy. Now, surely a good Modernist Priest like yourself has some insight into such things. Go ahead, enjlighten us...Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-65459219462507202922012-12-07T06:01:08.641-05:002012-12-07T06:01:08.641-05:00Andy - "That said, remember that the Actor at...Andy - "That said, remember that the Actor at Holy Mass is Christ Himself." Fr. Z, 5 Dec 2012.<br /><br />You mischaracterize Fr. Z as you do Fr. P.I.<br /><br />Pater Ignotusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-11569033196535939062012-12-06T22:19:20.262-05:002012-12-06T22:19:20.262-05:00Fr. Kavanaugh;
You don't need to tell me how ...Fr. Kavanaugh;<br /><br />You don't need to tell me how V-E-R-Y traditional Fr. Zuhlsdorf is. He is a personal friend. I actually served my first TLM on his footpace. He and I go way back.<br /><br />As for the rest of the conversation, we disagree. I have said that I will not go any further and I won't. Consider that conversation squashed.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03009356356243871772noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-23111437605863724512012-12-06T17:06:54.852-05:002012-12-06T17:06:54.852-05:00Andy - I, along with the V-E-R-Y traditional Fr. Z...Andy - I, along with the V-E-R-Y traditional Fr. Zuhlsdorf and others, call Christ an "actor." <br /><br />No, I am not calling Christ an "actor" as one who acts on the stage or screen. I understand that Christ acts in the mass, and the Church, priest, and congregation act in subordinate roles.<br /><br />I am not disagreeing with you. I am stating that I do not believe what you say I believe.<br /><br />Pin/Gene - I do not approve of the "clowns" and I do not know why they did what they did. If you want to know, ask them. If you don't want to know, but want to be a poseur in this conversation, you won't.Pater Ignotusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-31055906725634094532012-12-06T14:29:45.881-05:002012-12-06T14:29:45.881-05:00Ignotus, I am asking you. Since you and approve o...Ignotus, I am asking you. Since you and approve of these modernist ideas, I would like an explanation from you. Simple, neh?Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-72030350594570998742012-12-06T11:53:52.402-05:002012-12-06T11:53:52.402-05:00Fr. Kavanaugh;
You were a student of modern philo...Fr. Kavanaugh;<br /><br />You were a student of modern philosophy weren't you?<br /><br />I am responding to your assertations from several months ago. I am not holding them to be true statements and I am not the one who is supporting them as fact.<br /><br />It is you, dear Father, who is calling Christ an actor. I am saying that he is not. Christ is not an actor, he is the ACTION. Christ does not act, as an actor would, which by saying that he is an actor (along with the three others) is exactly what you're proposing. And I take issue with that proposition. <br /><br />I am not going to continue this circular discussion, because it bears no fruit. We will simply disagree on this issue, apparently.<br /><br />And I have no wish to hi-jack this thread any longer.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03009356356243871772noreply@blogger.com