tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post3358773416789909950..comments2024-03-28T20:30:10.681-04:00Comments on southern orders: WHY DO SO MANY CATHOLICS NOT ATTEND THE 1970 ROMAN MISSAL MASS AND THERE IS AN EXAGGERATION OF THE NUMBER WHO ATTEND THE EXTRAORDINARY FORM?Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comBlogger65125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-33677832212302214082021-07-27T04:54:18.053-04:002021-07-27T04:54:18.053-04:00There is nothing to prevent separate entities bein...There is nothing to prevent separate entities being parts of a whole. Vocabulary and syntax are not the same thing, and style (or form) is something distinct from either. To baldly state that syntax and style are not separate entities is simply untrue. Covering up your mistakes by inventing excuses for them is not convincing. Better to admit your error and move on. <br /><br />Unfortunately your whole argument is flawed, since while you are conversant with English syntax, you are largely ignorant of Latin, and therefore cannot produce parallel texts for comparison, which would be necessary to support your proposition. So you end up simply repeating a fallacy.<br /><br />A good translator, regardless of what language he is translating from, tries to convey (as far as is feasible) the style of the original, despite the fact he is using a different syntax, grammar and vocabulary.John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-49059840324880368292021-07-26T22:13:36.015-04:002021-07-26T22:13:36.015-04:00John Nolan,
Mike does not know Latin yet he keeps...John Nolan,<br /><br />Mike does not know Latin yet he keeps arguing with you as if he did. Very perplexing. Well, not reallyPierrenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-48185384861713955492021-07-26T19:57:17.118-04:002021-07-26T19:57:17.118-04:00Mike - You wrote, only yesterday: 'That is pre...Mike - You wrote, only yesterday: 'That is precisely what makes the attempts to mimic the syntactical style of Latin so awkward in the English texts'. Now you write: '"Mimic" is a word/concept you have introduced'. I know you don't read my posts, but it would appear you don't even read your own.<br /><br />I have commented at length on the Collect and Preface you have 'adjusted' and agreed that your changes are minor and don't alter the meaning. However, if you compare the Latin and English versions, it is plain that the 'word and phrase order' is not maintained, otherwise the opening would indeed resemble the syntax of the Jedi Master: 'O God, who to those who go astray, so that to the right path they may be able to return, of your truth the light show ...'<br /><br />But it doesn't go that way, does it? As for the Preface, the line 'Quia filios, quos longe peccati crimen abstulerat' (For, when your children were scattered afar by sin) would have to be rendered thus: 'For your children, whom afar of sin the offence had scattered'. Preposterous, you will agree.<br /><br />There's no point in citing examples which far from supporting your argument, actually undermine it.<br /><br />John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-6078514383595852392021-07-26T17:34:01.033-04:002021-07-26T17:34:01.033-04:00Fr. K,
You never answered my question. How can yo...Fr. K,<br /><br />You never answered my question. How can you comment on the differences in syntax between Latin and English when you admit you do not know the mother tongue of your Rite? Please do not answer through one of your numerous noms de plumePierrenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-92081443976213619432021-07-26T16:20:14.478-04:002021-07-26T16:20:14.478-04:00John - I have provided examples. Collect for 15th...John - I have provided examples. Collect for 15th Sunday and Sunday Ordinary Time Preface 8. The attempt to maintain the syntax - word and phrase order - leads to awkward English. "Mimic" is a word/concept you have introduced.<br /><br />Syntax and style not separate entities. They are parts of a whole - a prayer offered to God and meant to be heard and understood for the sanctification of the people. <br /><br />Jedi Master Yoda had a certain style that was marked by a characteristic syntax, For example: "Named must your fear be before banish it you can.” It is a cute, maybe endearing style, but not the best for communication through ears that "unfamilar with it are."<br /><br />"Feeble-minded" is a rather nasty bit of an attempt at a put-down. Does using it make you feel better?<br /><br /> Fr. Michael J. Kavanaughnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-59921184582291641272021-07-26T09:52:18.485-04:002021-07-26T09:52:18.485-04:00He could enlist Boris Johnson who narrowly missed ...He could enlist Boris Johnson who narrowly missed a first in Greats at Oxford and once wrote a leading article for the Daily Telegraph entirely in Latin.<br /><br />I suspect he will come back with something along the lines of 'I don't have to provide evidence for my propositions just because John Nolan expects me to, any more than I need to explain to John Nolan my reasons for posting under a variety of pseudonyms or anonymously'.<br /><br />He's nothing if not predictable.John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-29851603166940166112021-07-25T21:29:34.771-04:002021-07-25T21:29:34.771-04:00John Nolan,
I was typing to fast. I meant Cardina...John Nolan,<br /><br />I was typing to fast. I meant Cardinal BacciPierrenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-40928433855031307412021-07-25T21:27:56.477-04:002021-07-25T21:27:56.477-04:00John Nolan,
I doubt he will come back unless he e...John Nolan,<br /><br />I doubt he will come back unless he enlists a true Latinist to help him but Cardinal Bacchi and Father Reggie are deceasedPierrenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-62164081912033155002021-07-25T19:19:27.609-04:002021-07-25T19:19:27.609-04:00Mike - None of the references to syntax in LA '...Mike - None of the references to syntax in LA 'speak to the preference for maintaining the Latin syntax'. Section 20 says the vocabulary, syntax and style (of the translation) should produce 'a flowing vernacular text suitable to the rhythn of popular prayer'. No mention of attempting to mimic the syntax of the original. Section 47 talks of a 'sacral vernacular' with 'a vocabulary, syntax and grammar proper to divine worship'. Again, it is the syntax of the target language which is being referred to.<br /><br />I am aware that many people wanted a vernacular which mimicked everyday speech and was readily comprehensible even by children and the feeble-minded; they also wanted so-called 'inclusive' language. Accurate translation would prevent texts being altered to suit the translators' theological preferences. Hence the unpopularity of LA in some quarters.<br /><br />An example of Latin syntax: Gratiam tuam, quaesumus Domine, mentibus nostris infunde ...' Note that the object is placed first and the verb last; that 'tuam' and 'nostris' follow the nouns, and there are no prepositions. English translation: 'Pour forth, we beseech thee O Lord, thy grace into our hearts.' Strictly speaking, 'mens, mentis' means 'mind' but the translator has used a bit of licence here. But the syntax is very different.<br /><br />To carry your point, you would have to give examples of texts rendered 'awkward' because of the influence of Latin syntax, so fire away.<br /><br />'Syntactical style' is a misnomer, by the way - syntax and style are separate entities.<br /><br /> John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-30660038388439402512021-07-25T10:41:19.532-04:002021-07-25T10:41:19.532-04:00Father Kavanaugh,
Since you do not know Latin how...Father Kavanaugh,<br /><br />Since you do not know Latin how would you even know the Latin syntax versus the vernacular unless you are relying on third party critiques of LA?Pierrenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-68912474430082208482021-07-25T08:09:25.202-04:002021-07-25T08:09:25.202-04:00John - Yes, we have been down this road. And I ha...John - Yes, we have been down this road. And I have, before, referenced the portions of LA that speak to the preference for maintaining the Latin syntax in the English translations.<br /><br />Yes, there are considerable difference between Latin syntax and English syntax. That is precisely what makes the attempts to mimic the syntactical style of Latin so awkward in the English texts.<br /><br />And, John, you cannot "get impressions" from what I write if I and others cannot "get impressions" from what you write.<br /><br />No, I have not "cherry picked" LA. I cited EVERY use of the term syntax in the document.Fr. Michael J. Kavanaughnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-42207453246764761012021-07-25T08:06:24.864-04:002021-07-25T08:06:24.864-04:00John Nolan,
Thank you for that explanation. Altho...John Nolan,<br /><br />Thank you for that explanation. Although I know Latin, more or less, I never reflected upon the various writing styles contained in the texts of the Mass.Pierrenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-20435109706433451182021-07-24T16:14:30.450-04:002021-07-24T16:14:30.450-04:00Mike - We've been down this road before. Latin...Mike - We've been down this road before. Latin is a highly inflected language; English is not. English cannot replicate Latin syntax or word order, as I have pointed out to you many times. Can you give me a single instance where, in the revised translation, it does so?<br /><br />Since you, on your own admission, do not celebrate Mass in Latin, and therefore never use the original text of the Novus Ordo, you would not be in a position to appreciate that the Latin of the Mass is not all in one style. Scripture follows the Vulgate of St Jerome, who could have used a strict classical form but chose not to do so (note how he renders indirect speech). The Canon uses a rhetorical style that owes a lot to pagan examples but has actually carried over into English. For example, the 'rule of three' as in 'haec dona, haec munera, haec sancta sacrificia illibata' and 'hostiam puram, hostiam sanctam, hostiam immaculatam' is used by Abraham Lincoln in what is regarded as one of the greatest pieces of English prose - 'we can not dedicate, we can not consecrate, we can not hallow' and 'of the people, by the people, for the people'. He wasn't copying Latin syntax, and neither was ICEL when it produced the recent translation.<br /><br />The orations (Collects etc.) are in a more 'classical' or 'secretarial' style. The Latin is so terse that it is not easy to translate, but the translator needs somehow to convey the style or form while using the syntax of the target language. Prefaces use a more florid and lapidary form which often conveys a number of ideas; Sequences use the form of medieval Latin poetry and are comparatively late additions.<br /><br /><br />I get the impression that somewhere along the line you have read a critique of the revised translation (which isn't perfect, by any means) that lays the blame on LA and ever since you have been cherry-picking that document to convince yourself that it mandates the impossible, namely the imposition of Latin syntax on English. It does nothing of the sort.<br /><br /><br /><br />John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-18718218564836746412021-07-24T14:12:00.717-04:002021-07-24T14:12:00.717-04:00John - Liturgiam Authenticam makes reference to sy...John - Liturgiam Authenticam makes reference to syntax - the arrangement of words and phrases to create well-formed sentences - five times. I found no use of the word "form" in that way.<br /><br />See #20, #47, Section B Heading, #57, and #59.<br />Fr. Michael J. Kavanaughnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-90423509478930900012021-07-24T11:39:29.937-04:002021-07-24T11:39:29.937-04:00I would like to add a rider to the above. When Fr ...I would like to add a rider to the above. When Fr Kavanaugh posts under his own name he makes valid points which may be open to dispute, but which are certainly worth considering. If he sees a pastoral necessity for slightly altering texts which are simply translations in the first place, then good luck to him. <br /><br />He is not using translation as a way of altering the meaning of a text to suit a particular theological position. Yves Congar was hardly a conservative but even he was appalled by what the French bishops did regarding the translation of the post-V2 books.<br /><br /> John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-19180181829395897522021-07-24T09:13:16.393-04:002021-07-24T09:13:16.393-04:00The Latin reads:
Quia filios, quos longe peccati ...The Latin reads:<br /><br />Quia filios, quos longe peccati crimen abstulerat, per sanguinem Filii tui Spiritusque virtute, in unum ad te denuo congregare voluisti: ut ...<br /><br />Prefaces are meant to be sung, and since the main clause beginning 'quia' is 'in unum ... voluisti' it makes sense for the musical cadence to be placed after it. The same applies to the chant in English, although for some reason 'voluisti' (you willed) is left untranslated although it is the main verb.<br /><br />If the Preface is merely spoken, Fr K's version makes no difference to the meaning, although the main problem for his American English speaking congregation would surely be the lengthy clause beginning 'that ...'. The pre-2011 translation of the main body of the Preface is more idiomatic but no less accurate. If you discount the openings and conclusions, ICEL 1973 didn't make a bad job of the Prefaces (unlike the Collects) but they're less easy to sing.<br /><br />The current version maintains the form of the original (not the syntax, since Latin and English syntax are not remotely compatible) not least, as I said, because it is intended to be sung.<br /><br />Should Fr K wish to share with us any more of his 'adjustments' I would be happy to comment on them. John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-56966067904403075402021-07-23T09:15:29.842-04:002021-07-23T09:15:29.842-04:00I'm neither a Latinist nor the best writer how...I'm neither a Latinist nor the best writer however, as I understand word order to not be as significant in Latin, why would a slight reordering be problematic here? To me, the meaning is the same. Perhaps, "through the Blood etc" loses a bit of emphasis, but, maybe not. ByzRushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11543580976814745615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-4251939702417672682021-07-23T08:54:51.151-04:002021-07-23T08:54:51.151-04:00Father Kavanaugh,
You still lack the authority to...Father Kavanaugh,<br /><br />You still lack the authority to do so. Vatican II and all of that.<br />Pierrenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-89799822392462138652021-07-23T08:18:19.386-04:002021-07-23T08:18:19.386-04:00Anorther example of an adjustment that leads to gr...Anorther example of an adjustment that leads to greater clarity in a prayer to be heard by an American English speaking congregation:<br /><br />Preface VIII Sundays in Ordinary Time, Missal:<br />"For when your children were scattered afar by sin,<br />through the Blood of your Son and the power of the Spirit,<br />you gathered them again to yourself,<br />that a people, formed as one by the unity of the Trinity,<br />made the body of Christ and the temple of the Holy Spirit,<br />might, to the praise of your manifold wisdom,<br />be manifest as the Church."<br /><br />Sunday Preface VIII Adjusted:<br />"For when your children were scattered afar by sin,<br />you gathered them again to yourself<br />through the Blood of your Son and the power of the Spirit,<br />that a people, formed as one by the unity of the Trinity,<br />made the body of Christ and the temple of the Holy Spirit,<br />might, to the praise of your manifold wisdom,<br />be manifest as the Church."<br /><br />The repositioning of lines 2 and 3 makes, to my ear and to others in the American English speaking world,makes the meaning clearer. Maintaining Latin syntax is not always the best rule for translating the prayers into English.Fr. Michael J. Kavanaughnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-58209271294037197082021-07-22T20:52:51.670-04:002021-07-22T20:52:51.670-04:00Paris Pete, "But ya didn't, Blanche, ya d...Paris Pete, "But ya didn't, Blanche, ya didn't."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-57782908718777668352021-07-22T19:35:36.535-04:002021-07-22T19:35:36.535-04:00Anonymous at 4:07 pm,
I would have chanted Te La...Anonymous at 4:07 pm, <br /><br />I would have chanted Te Laudamus - something you could not appreciatePierrenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-71834865452840245972021-07-22T18:22:56.530-04:002021-07-22T18:22:56.530-04:00Anonymous at 4:07 pm,
Your speciality appears to ...Anonymous at 4:07 pm,<br /><br />Your speciality appears to be thin gruelPierrenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-11649091439745651522021-07-22T16:51:14.435-04:002021-07-22T16:51:14.435-04:00LL,
My tastes are also mostly eclectic!
In my tra...LL,<br /><br />My tastes are also mostly eclectic!<br />In my travels for my company I have come to appreciate many cuisines and for entertainment: everything from ballet to belly dancing!<br /><br />Now where was I?...<br /><br />Oh, back to something serious...my tastes, my humble preferences re good liturgy are not so eclectic. <br /><br />Regards,<br />AJP.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-56840591662107383882021-07-22T16:20:19.733-04:002021-07-22T16:20:19.733-04:00Dear "anonymous" at 4.07,
I actually gr...Dear "anonymous" at 4.07,<br /><br />I actually grew up without modern heating in our poor family's kitchen...<br />Oh, where was I...<br />Anon, would you like to share some good traditional Lenten recipes with me?<br /><br />My lentil soup sipped with a golden spoon is also "the cat's meow", if I understand what you mean by that gem of an expression...but my favourite is serving up a monastic type vegetable soup during Lent and each Friday.<br /><br />Bye for now, dear...Luckyladyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14728509823289180374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-50634179451510345502021-07-22T16:07:46.941-04:002021-07-22T16:07:46.941-04:00John - Give it a rest. We all know you think you&...John - Give it a rest. We all know you think you're the cat's meow and TJM/Paris Pete has already jumped in to sound "All Glory, Laud, and Honor." <br /><br />I actually enjoy the heat in here, as do you, and I'm a pretty good cook, to boot.<br /><br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com