tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post2856534043894131175..comments2024-03-28T20:30:10.681-04:00Comments on southern orders: INTINCTION, KNEELING FOR HOLY COMMUNION, GOOD AND BAD PRACTICES OF MC'S AND COW LICKSFr. Allan J. McDonaldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comBlogger49125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-39927197892863655862013-01-31T18:14:03.286-05:002013-01-31T18:14:03.286-05:00Yes, I did!Yes, I did!Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-53933637469639471352013-01-31T18:10:32.755-05:002013-01-31T18:10:32.755-05:00did anyone notice the priest from the Vidimus Stel...did anyone notice the priest from the Vidimus Stellam video at 1:20 - he makes a little sign of the cross with the Host - just like in the EF :)Marko Ivančičevićhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04579400863718513875noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-85465209666393488522013-01-10T18:34:42.785-05:002013-01-10T18:34:42.785-05:00Marc,
I agree with you about the duplicity.
I ...Marc,<br /><br />I agree with you about the duplicity. <br /><br />I would hope that he who is so stringent about Sacra Tridentina would be as stringent about not tolerating, encouraging or supporting the use of forbidden instrumentation and/or profane music; as presented in Tra le Sollecitudini.<br /><br />I would think that intellectual and practical honesty should rule the day.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03009356356243871772noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-39831917366223823122013-01-10T17:00:23.258-05:002013-01-10T17:00:23.258-05:00Andy, I have not attended Mass at a parish where S...Andy, I have not attended Mass at a parish where Sacr Tridentina was used to admonish the laity toward proper reception of Holy Communion as proposed by others in this thread. <br /><br />I have, however, been inside the Church the its main proponent here. I am sure the maracas and guitars (I vaguely recall drums or a piano being there, but I could be mistaken) placed prominently in the front of the Church about 10 feet from the Altar are not an indication that Tra le Sollecitudini isn't being followed. Surely those banned, profane instruments are merely decorative. <br /><br />As you point out, surely no one would be so duplicitous as to follow one instruction and not the other given their closeness in issuing from the Pope and the significance which they carry. Marcnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-14423268138050602402013-01-10T09:45:01.452-05:002013-01-10T09:45:01.452-05:00Marc,
One would hope that if certain pastors are ...Marc,<br /><br />One would hope that if certain pastors are quick to support Sacra Tridentina, issued and approved by Pope St. Pius X in 1905, then they would also be quick to support Tra le Sollecitudini, issued and approved by Pope St. Pius X in 1903, written a scant two years earlier, nearly to the day.<br /><br />In the latter, we find that pianos, bands and profane (read: secular) pieces of music are forbidden for use; since the support for both documents should be the same.<br /><br />I wait, anxiously, to hear that said pianos and profane songs have been removed in the parishes in which these two documents are presumably being supported, fully. It's only logical.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03009356356243871772noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-37833910457671911152013-01-09T07:55:49.888-05:002013-01-09T07:55:49.888-05:00Marc - there is no "p"recept of the Chur...Marc - there is no "p"recept of the Church that states that laity don't need to recieve more than once a year. The "p"recept you mention speaks not to the need of the laity, but to the liceity of the mass.<br /><br />Andy - there is a traditional seventh Precept: "To participate in the Church's mission of Evangelization of Souls.(Missionary Spirit of the Church)"<br /><br />While some choose to encourage less frequent communion by the laity, I choose, again, to stand with the Church's official teaching: "Frequent and daily Communion, as a practice most earnestly desired by Christ our Lord and by the Catholic Church, should be open to all the faithful, of whatever rank and condition of life; so that no one who is in the state of grace, and who approaches the Holy Table with a right and devout intention (recta piaque mente) can be prohibited therefrom." (Sacra Tridentina, Pius X)<br /><br /><br /><br />Pater Ignotusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-38218755939944786862013-01-08T21:45:40.298-05:002013-01-08T21:45:40.298-05:00Lest those reading this blog be confused, there ar...Lest those reading this blog be confused, there are 6 precepts to the Catholic Church. Along with the 10 Commandments give the faithful a base from which to start learning and assessing his faith. The 6 precepts of the Church are:<br /><br />1. To attend Holy Mass on Sundays and holy days of obligation and to refrain from servile work<br />2. To Confess our sins at least once a year (traditionally done during Lent)<br />3. To receive Holy Communion at least once a year during the Easter Season (known as the "Easter duty")<br />4. To observe the days of fasting and abstinence<br />5. To help contribute to the support of our pastors and provide for the needs of the Church according to one's abilities and station in life<br />6. To obey the marriage laws of the Church<br /><br />One can argue all he wants that this is not accurate, but he would be wrong. The Church has consistently taught this. While the Catechism of the Catholic Church lists 5, the sixth also does exist via the Code of Canon Law and is as important as the others.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03009356356243871772noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-5058830393862302192013-01-08T20:58:30.829-05:002013-01-08T20:58:30.829-05:00Kavanaugh - You'll note that I wrote precept, ...Kavanaugh - You'll note that I wrote precept, not Precept (with a capital "P"). The lack of capitalization indicates I was using the word "precept" in its normal, non-technical meaning. That usage is also clear from the context of what I wrote. <br /><br />The precept about which I am speaking is as follows: "If any one saith, that Masses, wherein the priest alone communicates sacramentally, are unlawful, and are, therefore, to be abrogated; let him be anathema."<br /><br />And since the entire question is your interpretation of what someone else wrote when they were clearly addressing the issue of ensuring proper disposition amongst the laity when receiving Communion in order to avoid sacrilege, this is about disposition, fasting, and Communion. <br /><br />Following the example of the other commenters here, I refuse to engage you further. <br />Marcnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-77400063292732826752013-01-08T20:01:52.841-05:002013-01-08T20:01:52.841-05:00Marc - It is not a precept of the Church "tha...Marc - It is not a precept of the Church "that the laity need not receive Communion at every Mass." There are seven precepts (or five depending on your source) and not one of them is "that the laity need not receive Communion at every Mass." <br /><br />The precept in question was designed to encourage reception of communion, not based on or to encourage the idea that "that the laity need not receive Communion at every Mass."<br /><br />This is not about proper disposition, about fasting, or about the validity of the mass. <br /><br />You stand corrected - again.Pater Ignotusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-80137858712311803862013-01-08T19:23:16.198-05:002013-01-08T19:23:16.198-05:00Ah....we did. I didn't see that. Thank you ...Ah....we did. I didn't see that. Thank you for your support. You're absolutely correct, most people and even many priests don't know the true purpose of the Mass.<br /><br />We should connect. I am a catechist for my diocese. I would love to compare notes sometime, so as to broaden my scope. I am always looking for a good theological discussion.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03009356356243871772noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-57064608295914274452013-01-08T18:03:50.618-05:002013-01-08T18:03:50.618-05:00Andy, I think we cross-posted. I hope my last comm...Andy, I think we cross-posted. I hope my last comment accurately reflects your previous comments. If not, I apologize. <br /><br />From my own experience as a catechist, I know people are confused about this. Many believe they MUST receive Communion if they go to Mass. They have not been taught what the Mass is and it's purpose. We are seeing in this thread both the cause and result of that lack of understanding. Marcnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-39775213296001315542013-01-08T17:55:29.222-05:002013-01-08T17:55:29.222-05:00Marc,
Interestingly enough, if you notice at no t...Marc,<br /><br />Interestingly enough, if you notice at no time do I say there shouldn't be a Rite of Communion. In certain instances, I am in favor of limiting it to the ministers at the altar, some of whom are lay members of the faithful.<br /><br />For centuries and even after Pope St. Pius X's statement, papal Masses didn't include reception of Holy Communion of the faithful, for the EXACT reason that I speak of.<br /><br />Just thought you'd like to know. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03009356356243871772noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-61496119080256276402013-01-08T17:46:25.178-05:002013-01-08T17:46:25.178-05:00Anonymous,
I also was bothered a couple of years a...Anonymous,<br />I also was bothered a couple of years ago about the sister's communion service at Holy Spirit church.<br />There are other abuses of the Eucharist happening by those sister at that parish...seen it firsthand.<br />Weekday communion services by the non-ordained when a deacon is available (actually in the congregation during the communion service!) has happened recently even at this blog author's parish...sad, but true.<br /><br />~SqueekerLamb<br /><br />~SLAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-2978614465186883272013-01-08T17:36:40.220-05:002013-01-08T17:36:40.220-05:00Kavanaugh - It is a precept of the Church that the...Kavanaugh - It is a precept of the Church that the laity need not receive Communion at every Mass. It is also a precept that the laity must receive Communion once a year during Easter. The two precepts are not mutually exclusive as you incorrectly assume. <br /><br />Frequent Communion is, as we all agree, a holy practice. But, that practice presupposes one is properly disposed to receive. That includes proper fasting, prayer, and Sacramental Confession, as is reinforced by what you've quoted. <br /><br />Now, perhaps you are reading Andy to say the Rite of Distribution of Communion to the laity should in some instances be removed from the Mass...? If that is how you read his comments, I have not drawn the same conclusion from what he's written. I read his comment to mean that individual laity need not receive Communion at every Mass at which they assist. <br /><br />Even so, we know there is no need for the laity to receive (or be offered Holy Communion) at the Mass for it to be a valid liturgy. Nor should that stop laity from attending as the Church teaches that the Mass itself conveys grace and spiritual communions are profitable toward salvation. So, even if Andy was proposing Masses be offered as such on occasion, the teaching and history of the Chuch's liturgical practice backs up his assertion. Marcnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-78264546924960543762013-01-08T16:23:35.089-05:002013-01-08T16:23:35.089-05:00Marc - Here's the "context" from And...Marc - Here's the "context" from Andy hisself: "... but it is my view that the laity do not need to receive at every Mass. That is a precept of the Church"<br /><br />No, that is not a precept of the Church." The precept is "To receive Our Lord Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist at least once a year during Easter Season." It is based on the Church expressed desire that the faithful recieve more frequently, even daily. ""Frequent and daily Communion, as a practice most earnestly desired by Christ our Lord and by the Catholic Church, should be open to all the faithful, of whatever rank and condition of life; so that no one who is in the state of grace, and who approaches the Holy Table with a right and devout intention (recta piaque mente) can be prohibited therefrom." (Sacra Tridentina, Pius X)<br /><br /><br /><br />Pater Ignotusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-54310994588370128922013-01-08T15:31:41.947-05:002013-01-08T15:31:41.947-05:00Kavanaugh, Andy is talking about avoiding sacrileg...Kavanaugh, Andy is talking about avoiding sacrilege. He and I would both agree, I'm sure, that the distribution is not to be limited where it can be some in a manner that avoids sacrilege and the people are properly disposed to commune. <br /><br />So, yes, Communion services should be discontinued in most cases because it is a sacrilege. <br /><br />The phrase "limiting Communion" is not apropos when talking about whether to distribute the Sacrament to non-Catholics, for example, as they are not entitled to its reception in the first place. Perhaps a better phrase would be "refusing Communion" and no one is arguing Communion should be refused to properly disposed Catholics when there is no danger of sacrilege. <br /><br />Perhaps you would be assisted by reading his posts in their proper context. His point is not a complex one - it's actually very simple. Marcnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-27494833781075278342013-01-08T15:02:11.283-05:002013-01-08T15:02:11.283-05:00Re: Word and Communion services - the parish I am ...Re: Word and Communion services - the parish I am in is quite isolated, so we have trained and "instituted" lay leaders who lead these on the occasion a priest is unable to journey over for Sunday Mass. Sunday only. A few years back we were lucky to have a priest once a month, so a handout was provided regarding the Communion services. It specifically stated that these were not to be "planned events". They were only allowed in emergency or unusual situations due to the lack of a priest, and if memory serves correctly, for Sabbath and Holy Days only.<br /><br />Or, just what Andy Milam said :-).Shellyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05485793986602894527noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-61982695469672668582013-01-08T13:39:43.456-05:002013-01-08T13:39:43.456-05:00Marc - You state "No one is arguing to limit ...Marc - You state "No one is arguing to limit communion." Andy stated, "I would argue that even then, Holy Communion should be limited." (Jan 7, 1:45 p.m.)<br /><br />And, "If it cannot be determined that the Blessed Sacrament will be treated with the proper reverence and adoration, is it not best to limit it?" (Jan 7, 11:05 a.m.)<br /><br />And, "I am saying that in a particular circumstance it should be limited to the ministers,..." (Jan 7, 12:04 p.m.)<br /><br />And, "Limiting it's distribution at one particular Mass does not equal removing it from the faithful." (Jan 7, 11:18 a.m.)<br /><br />Yes, "someone" is indeed arguing that communion should be limited.<br /><br />Pater Ignotusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-8691007181333667032013-01-08T13:23:17.479-05:002013-01-08T13:23:17.479-05:00No one is arguing to limit Communion nor does anyo...No one is arguing to limit Communion nor does anyone disagree that frequent Communion is a good, holy, and spiritually profitable practice. <br /><br />The discussion is twofold: (1) people must be properly disposed to receive, which entails proper fasting and prayer as well as sacramental Confession; and (2) Communion services conducted by laypeople are a questionable practice is the types of situations we are discussing (a town with 3 parishes where Mass is available everyday of the week). <br /><br />Of course there are a multitude of reasons why Communion services led by laity should be frowned upon that I don't feel the need to dileanate here as they are so obvious to all but the most willfully obtuse amongst us. Marcnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-4504151383587870002013-01-08T11:13:45.527-05:002013-01-08T11:13:45.527-05:00Anonymous,
You can go to blogger and set one up. ...Anonymous,<br /><br />You can go to blogger and set one up. It's really easy...follow the mouse.<br /><br />As for Communion services, I would look to Eucharistae Sacramentum #13; Sacrosanctum Concilium #55; 1983 CIC 1248§2; and Directory for Sunday Celebrations in the Absence of a Priest #50.<br /><br />There is great variance though, because each bishop has his own norms and that is within his privy, as the liturgist of the diocese.<br /><br />Because a bishop has the right to do something doesn't mean that it is practical or prudent to do it. Sometimes it is best to table something as opposed to employing something which could cause confusion regarding sacramental theology.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03009356356243871772noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-86081665100259568612013-01-08T11:03:25.831-05:002013-01-08T11:03:25.831-05:00Re "Frequent Communion" and "Limiti...Re "Frequent Communion" and "Limiting Communion": <br /><br />"In the early Church and in the patristic ages, the faithful communicated, or at any rate were expected to communicate, as often as the Holy Eucharist was celebrated (St. John Chrysostom loc. cit.; Apostolic canons, X; St. Gregory the Great, Dial. II, 23)."<br /><br />"Frequent and daily Communion, as a practice most earnestly desired by Christ our Lord and by the Catholic Church, should be open to all the faithful, of whatever rank and condition of life; so that no one who is in the state of grace, and who approaches the Holy Table with a right and devout intention (recta piaque mente) can be prohibited therefrom." (Sacra Tridentina, Pius X)<br /><br />"The practice, dating from the first centuries of the Church, of receiving Holy Communion often, as a means of growing in union with God. Weekly reception was customary already in apostolic times. From the end of the second century many priests and laity received every day. By the thirteenth century the practice had so declined that the Fourth Lateran Council had to legislate at least annual Communion at Easter time. In the sixteenth century the Council of Trent urged the reception of Holy Communion at every Mass attended. During the centuries of Jansenist influence, Communion, as a thing most earnestly desired by Christ our Lord and by the Catholic Church should be open to all the faithful" (Denzinger 3375-83). The only conditions required were the state of grace and the right intention. (Fr. John Hardon, Modern Catholic Dictionary)<br /><br />The perception that the precept for annual reception only of communion is an indication that this is favored or preferred is wrong. The precept requires, at minimum, once a year reception of communion. The Church, officially, encourages far, far greater frequency of reception of communion as evidenced above.Pater Ignotusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-7746422262300504362013-01-08T10:54:42.276-05:002013-01-08T10:54:42.276-05:00I will let the more knowledgeable amongst us answe...I will let the more knowledgeable amongst us answer your first question. <br /><br />As for creating an identity, just click the "Name" radio button below your comment and type in a name before you submit your comment. Or you can use a Google ID, which is what the people whose names are in blue are doing. That's the better way to go because then you can get automatic emails that tell you when someone leaves a comment... That's how we are able to respond to each other so quickly and diligently even if the original post is from days ago. <br /><br />Welcome aboard!Marcnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-75367249293266206692013-01-08T10:46:18.763-05:002013-01-08T10:46:18.763-05:00Anonymous, the Church sees Communion services as a...Anonymous, the Church sees Communion services as a rare and exceptional thing. That is, they should not be done routinely, but if they are, only typically on Sundays should they be done. So if Fr. is going for a doctor visit on a random Tuesday but ordinarily celebrates Mass every day publicly, there is no real justifiable reason to have a Communion service. On the other hand, if you are in some desolate place that only sees a priest once a month, then Communion services are more reasonable and probably should be done.<br /><br />There are several ways to make a handle for use here. The easiest is to click "Name/URL" under Choose an identity and then type in whatever you want to be known as in the "Name" box. You will have to do this each time you comment. Or, you can use a Google Account or OpenID, but you have to sign up for those.ytcnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-16494657355524709412013-01-08T07:45:37.353-05:002013-01-08T07:45:37.353-05:00I had a question about these communion services by...I had a question about these communion services by the sister at Holy Spirit. I asked the Sisters at St Peter Claver why they don't have them when Fr Dan is off or away. They said it was not appropriate or needed as long as there was a mass close by. Even if all the priests were away they would only consider it on a Sunday, but even then if there are Deacons available they would be the ones to do it not the sisters. Is there a rule or norm for communion services?<br />On another note, how do I create a name or identity if I want to?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-33098527397719421822013-01-08T06:56:17.656-05:002013-01-08T06:56:17.656-05:00I agree about anonymous posters. They should be ba...I agree about anonymous posters. They should be banned and required to have a consistent identity of some type. I know Kavanaugh (Ignotus) used to come on as a number of different cutesy names, but his hostile and arrogant style always gave him away. His contempt for the blog and Fr. MacDonald have become sort of institutionalized here and serve only as a stimulus for discussions of unbelief, apostasy, liturgical ignorance, and post-Modern bias.<br />This new anonymous seems to be merely stupid, which Ignotus is not.Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.com