tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post2667386519711016700..comments2024-03-18T20:55:55.914-04:00Comments on southern orders: THE NOSTALGIA OF A PASSING GENERATION'S FINAL BREATHES OR THE TRADITION OF THE CHURCH, PAST, PRESENT AND TO COME?Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-45069527798107718092013-10-21T16:59:29.229-04:002013-10-21T16:59:29.229-04:00A very interesting article relevent to this post. ...A very interesting article relevent to this post. Check it out:<br /><a href="http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/1350623?eng=y" rel="nofollow">http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/1350623?eng=y</a>Lornenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-82612036279897667302013-10-18T10:17:09.019-04:002013-10-18T10:17:09.019-04:00Gene, I suppose it is. I tended to put my conserva...Gene, I suppose it is. I tended to put my conservatism down to my upbringing. However, children are often rebellious against their parents' values. From a very early age I was fascinated by history and my first experience of the Mass at age three or four (it was the typical 1950s parish Missa Cantata) enthralled me.<br /><br />Anyway, I'm just off to join a weekend retreat for young Catholic adults. They are having Mass, Vespers and Compline in the Old Rite and need help with the Chant. They are "Futurechurch", not the superannuated liberals like Piero Marini.John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-41392175941061688242013-10-18T09:50:13.367-04:002013-10-18T09:50:13.367-04:00John, my only objection to what you say is not tha...John, my only objection to what you say is not that I disagree with possibility of this hard-wiring, but that we are using the 'nature versus nurture' argument to relax our obligation to solve the objective and mutual problems we face. I think it is possible that Vatican II was intended to give Liberals more 'access' to liturgy. It seems it was totally hijacked, of course.rcghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09131930849106490711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-27753762830929556392013-10-18T07:43:43.634-04:002013-10-18T07:43:43.634-04:00John, Is that not a bit deterministic?John, Is that not a bit deterministic?Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-53850467107494792162013-10-18T06:54:12.545-04:002013-10-18T06:54:12.545-04:00It is widely believed that liberal and conservativ...It is widely believed that liberal and conservative leanings are biologically and genetically determined. This is explored in a new book 'Predisposed: Liberals, Conservatives and the Biology of Political Difference' by Hibbing, Smith and Alford. it also applies, mutatis mutandis, to religious attitudes. Someone who is liturgically conservative is very likely to be politically conservative as well. It does much to explain the mutual incomprehension shown by both sides. The 'spirit of Vatican II', reflected in the pursuit of novelty and change, becomes to the liberal a matter of dogmatic certainty. He finds it easy to convince himself that it is God's plan for the Church, and that those who oppose it are not just wrong, but morally flawed. In the lexicon of the political left there is no worse epithet than 'counter-revolutionary'.<br /><br />I can readily believe that my own conservatism is innate and hard-wired. This does not mean that I am axiomatically right and that those who disagree with me are axiomatically wrong. I occasionally agree with Pater Ignotus, but realize that we think in different ways; my predisposition is not the same as his. Argument is therefore merely an intellectual exercise, since there is no likelihood of my convincing him, or vice-versa.<br /><br /> John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-80081038655537631302013-10-17T22:20:40.440-04:002013-10-17T22:20:40.440-04:00So, New Anonymous, which do you prefer...going bac...So, New Anonymous, which do you prefer...going back to the unbelief, modernism, and apostasy of the 70's or going back to proper doctrine, liturgy, and belief? I assume you meant the Tea Party remark as a slur; I took it as a compliment. BTW, there were some pretty cool things about the 1300's and 1400's.Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-86216220889764987922013-10-17T21:59:49.176-04:002013-10-17T21:59:49.176-04:00I can see why he says what he says. He really tho...I can see why he says what he says. He really thought it would turn out differently than it did. I have to wonder if he thought it was going in the right direction before the Church began to crumble. What is the vision? What is the difference in Catholicism and any other religion in this vision? rcghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09131930849106490711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-67341120355067920292013-10-17T20:04:38.874-04:002013-10-17T20:04:38.874-04:00I am new here,
There is an obvious c...I am new here,<br /> There is an obvious continuity of the Church and its liturgy of the 1300's, 1400's, and the 1940's-50's. The classic Latin Roman Rite Mass didn't start at the Council of Trent--it was merely codified and imposed on the worldwide Latin Rite Church (with some notable exceptions). <br /><br /> There is an obvious and sudden rupture (rather than slow barely perceptible organic development over time) in the Church and its liturgy in the 1960's-70's. The official teachings may have remained essentially the same, just more developed, but there was obvious confusion, bad cathechesis, and widespread liturgical abuse and widespread abandonment of traditional piety and externals which underpinned orthodox belief. <br /><br />So, yes, going back to the actual way things were in the 60's or 70's, BAD. Picking up with where we were during the Second Vatican Council, actually reading its documents (especially Sacrosanctum Concilium) and using it as the guide for the modest reforms that it called for in the then normative Tridentine (now Extraordinary Form) Mass--GOOD!Joseph Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00036852763902493131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-31915165403617295682013-10-17T16:03:27.172-04:002013-10-17T16:03:27.172-04:00I wish people would keep politics out of it too. I...I wish people would keep politics out of it too. It's possible to be politically liberal AND think that Abp Marini's ideas stink!Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13873507031809422203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-7164409772730965542013-10-17T16:01:42.035-04:002013-10-17T16:01:42.035-04:00I wish that people would keep the politics out of ...I wish that people would keep the politics out of it too. It's possible to be politically liberal AND think that Abp Marini's ideas stink!Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13873507031809422203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-53276450513753989452013-10-17T15:15:17.781-04:002013-10-17T15:15:17.781-04:00For Piero the future looks bright, since his guy i...For Piero the future looks bright, since his guy is now pope, the "spirit of Vatican II" incarnate. I expect an announcement anyday now that the cause for sainthood for Bugnini has been started by the Vatican.Philnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-90394159088647650632013-10-17T13:09:10.371-04:002013-10-17T13:09:10.371-04:00The AB means the further secularization of religio...The AB means the further secularization of religion and our sacraments. The Holy Father is responsible for loosening the woodwork. Curious to see what he might have in mind for the emerging company of pests.Johnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-70276719811014767412013-10-17T12:13:45.152-04:002013-10-17T12:13:45.152-04:00I am new here. The tone of this blog seems to be:...I am new here. The tone of this blog seems to be: "Going back" to the 60s or 70s, BAD, "Going forward" to the 40s or 50s or 1300s or 1400s, GOOD. It seems like the Catholic Tea Party. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-73901123366058452362013-10-17T09:12:16.552-04:002013-10-17T09:12:16.552-04:00Indeed, perhaps in possible agreement with Ab. Mar...Indeed, perhaps in possible agreement with Ab. Marini we can all agree that the Vatican II goal--the reinvigoration of actual participation in the traditional Roman liturgy as Pope Pius X had urged--has yet to be accomplished. Indeed, with less than 0.1% of Catholics even attending it, the effort implement Vatican II has not even begun. Do even this many Catholics regularly attend a glorious Sunday Mass filled with chant of both priest and people?Henrynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-34136070076969577892013-10-17T07:56:13.204-04:002013-10-17T07:56:13.204-04:00Why is it considered healthy and good if a liberal...Why is it considered healthy and good if a liberal priest yearns for the chaos of the 70's, yet a priest who yearns for the days of adherence to the Faith and dignified liturgy is considered immature and unstable?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-43605260005516332352013-10-17T07:34:23.766-04:002013-10-17T07:34:23.766-04:00The "futurechurch" of the 1970's is ...The "futurechurch" of the 1970's is a lot like Obamacare. It has imploded upon itself and it cannot sustain itself. The (for lack of a better word) remnant of faithful traditionalists will be around at the end of the silliness to clean up the mess and restore order. But why, why, why must we suffer and watch our beloved Church collapse under the weight of policies that are proven failures?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-23841944147521167262013-10-17T05:54:05.867-04:002013-10-17T05:54:05.867-04:00Could Achbishop PIERO Marini's vision be the s...Could Achbishop PIERO Marini's vision be the same one advocated by "Futurechurch?" I felt like I was being transported back to the 70's when I viewed their website. We cannot go back into that sewer!Joseph Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00036852763902493131noreply@blogger.com