tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post2463204255344801475..comments2024-03-28T20:30:10.681-04:00Comments on southern orders: IS THERE MORE CONFUSION NOW OR LESS WHEN IT COMES TO THE MASS?Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comBlogger54125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-5831723694043485182012-01-02T10:11:25.037-05:002012-01-02T10:11:25.037-05:00Ignotus, I would not ban you because you disagree ...Ignotus, I would not ban you because you disagree with me, I would ban you because you are an obnoxious agenda troll.Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-56228341490439366072012-01-01T18:58:51.878-05:002012-01-01T18:58:51.878-05:00Pin, you're off to a bad start in the new year...Pin, you're off to a bad start in the new year. <br /><br />I did not say and I do not believe that desire for the EF is wholly "an artificially contrived need." If you read that into what I posted, then you are simply wrong. A fair discussion is based on what is posted, not on what you read into what is posted.<br /><br />Let me clarify my meaning: If those who desire growth in the EF can create that need, as is done through advertising in the secular world, then so be it. Or, they can "uncover" that need, if is there in the first place. I don't believe that it is.<br /><br />"Banning" those who disagree with you is a simplistic solution, but I suggest it is not healthy, in the short or the long run. I think Good Father McDonald does a reasonably good job in moderating comments here and I commend him for his even-handed approach.Pater Ignotusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-75843666800334805052012-01-01T07:03:05.753-05:002012-01-01T07:03:05.753-05:00I believe that Ignotus' statement that the EF ...I believe that Ignotus' statement that the EF is an "artificially contrived need" speaks volumes about him and his orientation. His hostility to the EF is palpable and his attitude toward Fr, the people on this blog, and the laity in general is true clericalism...but, of a secular humanist sort, if that makes any sense. If this were a forum with moderators, he would have been banned months ago.Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-22612024005058592692011-12-31T19:53:10.816-05:002011-12-31T19:53:10.816-05:00I just checked and the Una Voce Quad Cities ads pr...I just checked and the Una Voce Quad Cities ads promoting the EF are still up and available for viewing. It is called the "Altar Your View" ad campaign. <br /><br />Just do a search for Una Voce Quad Cities ad and you will find the site, with an agreement for their use.Joseph Johnsonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-63733815712711495232011-12-31T19:13:27.443-05:002011-12-31T19:13:27.443-05:00Father,
I have always seen your notices and...Father,<br /> I have always seen your notices and I was frankly astounded when the Mass you offered on All Souls Day made the front page. However, people's interest has to be drawn out by something more eye-catching and explanatory than mere printed notices--those are only good for those of us who already know what the EF is (and assuming they are printed timely enough to be of any benefit).<br /><br /> What I am talking about is an ad, using beautiful color pictures like the ones of the Mass you offered with an invitation to attend Mass in the Extraordinary Form (with Mass times and locations in the Diocese), possibly with a short explanation about Summorum Pontificum and the EF, (something approaching the quality of the "Catholics Come Home" campaign ads). One good example which has already been used was put together a couple of years ago by Una Voce, Quad Cities. It may still be available for viewing on the Internet--you may want to look it up.Joseph Johnsonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-68822444994746604212011-12-31T18:37:50.500-05:002011-12-31T18:37:50.500-05:00Joseph:
I have a background in advertising. When...Joseph:<br /><br />I have a background in advertising. When I moved here in 2004, I submitted a "dummy" of a display ad to the diocese to help promote the one Mass that they had at that time.<br /><br />I received no response.Robert Kumpelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10567786012498143419noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-2643983270804061722011-12-31T18:36:54.662-05:002011-12-31T18:36:54.662-05:00I place notices in the southern cross frequently f...I place notices in the southern cross frequently for our Sunday mass and special Ed MassesFr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-67208566649068416492011-12-31T18:34:59.122-05:002011-12-31T18:34:59.122-05:00Perhaps Starbuck's was not the best example, b...Perhaps Starbuck's was not the best example, but to even suggest that devotion to the EF is an artificially contrived "need" borders on...well, you know what you are saying.<br /><br />If most Catholics in Macon and Savannah are aware that the EF is available to them, so much the better. That so few have chosen to even TRY attending those Masses says volumes about the attitude atmosphere of the diocese towards this Mass. Has anything really been done to promote attending these services? <br /><br />If the majority of Catholics do not attend these Masses when they are readily available, there is a good chance that the majority have still not "sampled" the EF either. Of course, in many parishes, they can pick up a copy of <em>U.S. Catholic</em>, and read the "expert" opinions denouncing the EF and lamenting how "backward thinking" the Holy Father is. <br /><br />Offer it and they will come. Let them taste it and look out. Change the hostile culture towards the EF and you could transform the Church.Robert Kumpelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10567786012498143419noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-41313727774289513832011-12-31T18:25:54.698-05:002011-12-31T18:25:54.698-05:00Pater,
Just to be sure that Catholics all ov...Pater,<br /> Just to be sure that Catholics all over Macon and Savannah (as well as the rest of the Diocese) are aware that the EF is being offered in those cities wouldn't it be useful to have a nice color ad in the "Southern Cross" giving EF Mass times and locations? <br /><br /> Unfortunately, and based on some past incidents, I share Robert Kumpel's suspicion of a "establishment conspiracy" (or at least prejudice) against the EF in our Diocese. For this reason, I truly doubt that the "Southern Cross" would print such an ad, even if someone offered to pay for it.Joseph Johnsonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-37285594917358543182011-12-31T17:17:15.602-05:002011-12-31T17:17:15.602-05:00Has the Pope not said that the EF should be provid...Has the Pope not said that the EF should be provided if requested? So, Priests who do not provide it if asked are in direct disobedience...n'est ce pas? I know that traditional Catholics do not like to make noise, but maybe they should...<br /><br />Starbucks is overpriced hype. There are far better coffees and even today's house wife can make better cookies with a mix (if she can figure out how to operate the oven).Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-74419352793846598282011-12-31T16:40:07.452-05:002011-12-31T16:40:07.452-05:00No, I did not miss the headlines. The sad stories...No, I did not miss the headlines. The sad stories of the mania that followed the artificial "need" that was created is what prompted my using the Jordan shoes as an example.<br /><br />If proponents of the EF can create such a "need" among the faithful, the desire for the EF mass will grow. I don't see that happening. Catholics all over Macon and Savannah are aware that the EF mass is available in those cities, yet a tiny fraction of those aware choose to attend these celebrations.Pater Ignotusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-58802145962348447752011-12-31T14:34:14.810-05:002011-12-31T14:34:14.810-05:00I guess Pater Ignotus missed the headlines about t...I guess Pater Ignotus missed the headlines about the riots that ensued over Michael Jordan brand shoes this Christmas. <br /><br />All that aside, Starbucks surely did an admirable job marketing and creating demand for their various coffee variants, but those products existed before Starbucks and were slowly gaining ground in the marketplace. The point is, as more people became aware of these products and tried them, the demand grew.<br /><br />I almost am beginning to think that this suppression of the EF could have a reverse effect. Even though the EF is not "officially" forbidden, it exists in a state of being <em>de facto</em> forbidden by the current establishment. If they persist in this overreaching suppression of the EF, it may well create even MORE demand as curiosity and the naturally human desire to have what is forbidden takes effect.Robert Kumpelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10567786012498143419noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-82417642526634476132011-12-31T12:13:23.981-05:002011-12-31T12:13:23.981-05:00Joseph, thank you for the correction. Seven is mu...Joseph, thank you for the correction. Seven is much better than 4 for sure. It is good that a few priests are able to offer the Traditional Mass at the Cathedral for sure. I hope that continues and grows with our new bishop. <br /><br />Carol, Templar, Fr. McDonald: I guess my memory failed me as well. At any rate, perhaps February, unless someone wants to try to get together earlier. I have the same sentiments as Templar, I'll do whatever I can to help!Marchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13510317669833026685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-49738054408415338282011-12-31T11:28:44.288-05:002011-12-31T11:28:44.288-05:00Mr. Kumpel,
You are indeed correct in much of ...Mr. Kumpel,<br /><br /> You are indeed correct in much of what you say..Many people do not have an EF Mass or have even heard of it. How, without having it as an option on any given Sunday are people supposed to discover its riches anew, as I believe the Holy Father has stated. Folk should feel comfortable drifting between both Masses on a schedule. This policy of having to "make" the EF Mass happen by often argueing against your Priest or Bishop, buying the vestments, securing the vessels, locating and satisfying an available Priest and the long drawn out battles that often ensue smacks of having to almost buy your Mass. Helping is one thing, doing everything involved that a Mass in the OF would just have done for it is setting one Mass against the other. How many people who just want to attend, even for the first time out of curiosity who might become loyal devotees of the EF Mass are lost, go unseen, or just plain stay quiet because they know of all the "extras" they have to do that they don't have to do for an OF Mass. It is turning into the Church provides for the OF Mass and the laity if willing to do all or most of the above provides the EF. Is that right? I love the EF Mass but do not wish to engage against my Bishop or Priest for it. When I inquired the first time I was told "over my dead body". So the stable group thing in no way takes into account anyone interested in an EF Mass. It just counts folk who are willing and able to fight and finance something that the Church should just provide.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-38828336017249463642011-12-31T11:19:38.227-05:002011-12-31T11:19:38.227-05:00I think the demand for Starbucks grew not because ...I think the demand for Starbucks grew not because people simply "knew" about it but because Starbucks generated a sense of "want" in the population. This is the general purpose of advertising.<br /><br />Everyone knew about coffee, but somehow the merchandising done by Starbucks convinced the gullible population that they should want (or that they "needed") Starbuck's products.<br /><br />Many people know about caviar, crystal meth, Michael Jordan brand shoes, and 40 year old Scotch. Despite this knowledge, only a relatively few people opt to purchase these products.Pater Ignotusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-62398132417464714982011-12-31T11:04:36.920-05:002011-12-31T11:04:36.920-05:00I know this is an old example, but it makes sense....I know this is an old example, but it makes sense.<br /><br />In the 1970's there was little demand in America for Esperessos, Cappucinos and Lattes and other sorts of coffee drinks, largely because most people did not know about them. By the late 1980's that had changed, now almost everyone knows about them and the demand has exploded. Many homes have espresso machines and we even have the Starbucks chain down here in Elvis Country. The demand grew because PEOPLE KNEW ABOUT IT.<br /><br />The EF is generally unknown. What little most Catholics think they know about it is negative thanks to the bitter words of the artery-hardened liberals and the mischaracterizations offered in the "Catholic" press. I once even made an announcement at a church about an EF Mass that would be taking place and the priest took over and warned the people that "This rite discourages participation and discriminates against women" (the priest and I had a lively conversation after that and have remained friends).<br /><br />My point is that if more Catholics actually KNEW what the EF was like, they would have a choice and many of them would take the newly offered choice. But they won't have any choice and will never know what choices are available to them if it is never offered to them. It almost looks like there is a sinister plot afoot to make sure most Catholics never learn about their choices and never get to make that choice--am I starting to sound like a conspiracy theorist? In this case, the conspiracy is provable. Don't believe me? Get on the phone and call your pastor now and ask for an EF Mass in your parish. You'll hear one of these responses, guaranteed:<br /><br />"Are you crazy?"<br /><br />"Nobody wants that Mass!"<br /><br />"You can't turn back the clock!"<br /><br />"Do you speak Latin? Then why do you want it?"<br /><br />"I didn't know you were one of the crazies who wants to erase Vatican II."<br /><br />"We're a Vatican II parish and that's too preconciliar."<br /><br />"I'm not about to learn that Mass and no other priest around here is going to say it!"<br /><br />OR THE MOST COMMON LIE OF ALL:<br /><br />"You're the first person to ask for that Mass."<br /><br /><br />For now, it looks like most of us are not going to get any choices in our parishes. If that doesn't sound like a conspiracy to you, you have to admit that it's, at very least, a sinister pattern.Robert Kumpelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10567786012498143419noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-59019822478354758552011-12-31T11:03:26.562-05:002011-12-31T11:03:26.562-05:00Carol and SLamb: the '62 Missal has "the ...Carol and SLamb: the '62 Missal has "the Essential Prayers" side by side in Latin and English. Loads and loads of prayers. Good summary of Christian Doctrine, etc. You really should have one to accompany the New Translation.<br /><br />rcgAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-74995006977966724582011-12-31T11:02:12.049-05:002011-12-31T11:02:12.049-05:00Your memory be correct.Your memory be correct.Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-77424042471512334132011-12-31T11:01:13.770-05:002011-12-31T11:01:13.770-05:00I am willing to meet anywhere, anytime, in support...I am willing to meet anywhere, anytime, in support of anything that fosters the One True Faith, although I think we shall have a devil of a time meeting after the Latin Mass in January as there will be none if my memory is correct.Templarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18204866760862707908noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-46628853627692798722011-12-30T21:18:16.071-05:002011-12-30T21:18:16.071-05:00Carol....you are right.
We could pray the Rosary i...Carol....you are right.<br />We could pray the Rosary in Latin.<br />Mary can guide this endeavor.<br /><br />~SqueekerLambAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-90111650393998773562011-12-30T19:11:24.566-05:002011-12-30T19:11:24.566-05:00rcg - No, the validity of the sacraments can depen...rcg - No, the validity of the sacraments can depend on many factors. The eucharist can be confected only by a validly ordained priest, whereas anyone with the right intention and using the proper form can, in a pinch, baptize validly. A priest cannot celebrate mass in a host factory and consecrate all the hosts, since this is not the intention of the Church.<br /><br />When Fr. McDonald baptizes a person using the OF of the ritual, this is a Traditional baptism, as Traditional as a baptism in the EF. It is historically and rubrically different, but it is as much a part of the Tradition of the Church as any baptism.Pater Ignotusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-57460797150441497962011-12-30T18:48:06.377-05:002011-12-30T18:48:06.377-05:00Templar, I agree. I'm going to follow your adv...Templar, I agree. I'm going to follow your advice. As a lawyer, please understand it is difficult for me to back down from such a discussion. :-)<br /><br />Carol, your idea is great. Maybe after the Latin Mass in January we could try to get people together to chat. Anyone else in on this? Templar? Pin? Anonymouses?Marchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13510317669833026685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-50618378355001615742011-12-30T18:47:16.060-05:002011-12-30T18:47:16.060-05:00Marc,
I just got in from work for the day and...Marc,<br /> I just got in from work for the day and it is from home that I have to wait to type my comments, sorry if this is a little late.<br /><br /> To the point: Rather than 4 priests in our Savannah Diocese who have offered public EF Masses (since 2007), to the best of my personal knowledge there are at least 7. Two are in Macon, two are in Savannah (where they alternate each Sunday a 1:00 p.m. weekly Mass at the Cathedral). Another used to take turns with the Savannah Mass but is now relocated elsewhere in the Diocese. One other has offered it twice and yet another priest in a small rural South Georgia church has offered it once. <br /><br /> It's marginally better than you might think but we still have a long way to go with Summorum Pontificum in our Diocese.Joseph Johnsonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-68282320824754993112011-12-30T17:56:25.876-05:002011-12-30T17:56:25.876-05:00Pater Ignotus: do you mean that the list of Sacram...Pater Ignotus: do you mean that the list of Sacraments is the same traditional list as it always has been? It seems that Marc is concerned with the traditional method of executing the Sacrament. If that is so, it begs the question: is a Sacrament valid regardless of how or by whom, it is performed?<br /><br />rcgAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-65675758948780275332011-12-30T17:50:28.806-05:002011-12-30T17:50:28.806-05:00Marc, I beg of you, please don't feed the Trol...Marc, I beg of you, please don't feed the Troll. He hijacks every meaningful discussion on this Blog with his quibbling about grammar and deliberately provocative responses. When he responds to you please just ignore him. If enough of us stop responding to him perhaps he will just go away.Templarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18204866760862707908noreply@blogger.com