tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post1555970630205959473..comments2024-03-28T20:30:10.681-04:00Comments on southern orders: WHEN LITURGY BECOMES IDOLATRY AND IS EVALUATED NOT BY THE FRUIT IT PRODUCES BUT BY ACADEMIC STANDARDSFr. Allan J. McDonaldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comBlogger40125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-53469378944402872482014-04-06T22:44:33.340-04:002014-04-06T22:44:33.340-04:00Pater,
Admitting for the sake of argument that it...Pater,<br /><br />Admitting for the sake of argument that it's a bad translation--which I don't in fact--why don't you do what all of us orthodox believers had to do for two generations of crappy/heretical "We believe" and "born of the Virgin Mary" "for you and for all" and just deal with it? Your generation has had its way with the Church. Now it's your turn to see your preferences dismantled. Suck it up.<br /><br />And there you go again, insinuating/claiming that if someone is for liturgical reform then he thinks it's a panacea--_and_ he rejects the Church's teaching on social justice. Quit poisoning the well. Debate honestly. <br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-29378069416183000442014-04-05T12:13:02.417-04:002014-04-05T12:13:02.417-04:00PI, it must have occurred to you that those who re...PI, it must have occurred to you that those who rejected ICEL 1998 and produced Liturgiam Authenticam were not primarily concerned with translation techniques; their (admittedly belated) concern was that the English version in use did not adequately convey the full meaning of the Latin text and in some cases deliberately distorted it. A further concern was that the old ICEL, following the 1969 principles of Comme le Prevoit, were composing new liturgical prayers and even leaving options for extemporizing them.<br /><br />I think that even you would agree that the final decision on liturgical texts must rest with the Holy See. SC made this clear enough. The Council Fathers certainly didn't envisage lots of local liturgies popping up all over the place. It also has to be remembered that the English translation is the most important one, not least because other translations (Welsh, Irish, Pidgin etc.) are taken from it rather than from the original Latin.<br /><br />It might also have occurred to you that those who opposed LA were not primarily concerned with translation techniques either; they didn't want (for reasons of their own) the Latin text to be accurately translated. This is in my opinion far more sinister than allowing the odd infelicity to creep into the translation; not a result of syntax, but usually because the translators were sometimes too keen to literally translate a Latin word - which in the light of what had been allowed to happen over the previous half century - is understandable. John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-10234289101835606742014-04-05T09:46:51.580-04:002014-04-05T09:46:51.580-04:00Cameron - And there were many people who simply *r...Cameron - And there were many people who simply *refused* to believe that cholera was transmitted via water, that African-Americans had the intellectual capacity to serve as priests, and that a women could do a reasonably good job as a US Senator.<br /><br />They were wrong, too.Pater Ignotusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-80587811768359802212014-04-05T09:43:19.076-04:002014-04-05T09:43:19.076-04:00John - "...a working knowledge of Latin and s...John - "...a working knowledge of Latin and some familiarity with certain texts..." does not enable a priest, or anyone else for that matter, to "...look at the original Latin of (say) a Collect and ask yourself why the English version you used year in, year out, not only missed a lot out, but also inserted material that was never there."<br /><br />For the task of translation of such texts a "working knowledge" is wholly insufficient. The men and women who do our translations for us have an exceptional, a prodigious, even an olympian knowledge of Latin.<br /><br />While my knowledge of Latin is weak, I am able to read English very well. The arguments made against the translational philosophy of LA and the translations made using that philosophy were made in English. You have read them, too.<br /><br />To my knowledge, every presentation on the new translation by Bishop Seratelli, an ardent supporter of the new translation, was made in English.<br /><br />Is it so hard to understand that his comments, and those made by dozens of other Latin scholars and theologians on both sides of the question would give me, or anyone else, an understanding of ho LA was intended to work regarding Latin syntax? Pater Ignotusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-52680760100740679542014-04-05T07:03:12.705-04:002014-04-05T07:03:12.705-04:00Pater Ignotus
A Latinist is someone who can write...Pater Ignotus<br /><br />A Latinist is someone who can write, speak and think in the language with ease. I am far from being such; I was taught Latin for five years at school (1962-1967) and we used cribs for Caesar and Virgil. I was required to study some medieval Latin as part of my history degree, and again we made use of cribs (even those who had A-Level Latin - two years of intensive study from age 16-18 - found them useful).<br /><br />Liturgical Latin and the Vulgate are a lot easier than Cicero or Tacitus and the crib (in the form of a more-or-less literal translation) is on the facing page in both my missal and bible.<br /><br />I didn't say you were a philistine; but I described a certain attitude as being philistine. Namely, that since very few people are fluent in Latin every trace of it must be removed from the liturgy, including the entire corpus of Gregorian Chant, most of which developed with the liturgy in the course of the first millennium and is uniquely proper to it, not to mention the liturgical music of the second millennium.<br /><br />It is also philistine, as well as perverse, to equate being able to recite prayers in French or Spanish without being fluent in these languages with the ability to do the same in Latin. What you have written on more than one occasion has led me to make such inferences.<br /><br />All priests need is a working knowledge of Latin and some familiarity with certain texts. This is easily acquired, and indeed is a requirement for ordination. If a priest cannot celebrate the OF in Latin he is in the wrong job; if he can and refuses on principle to do so, he is perverse. <br /><br />If I can accept the place of the vernacular in the liturgy, despite there not being much of a precedent for it in the western Church, why can you not accept that Latin also has a place? Is it because I am a moderate and you are an extremist?<br /><br />And if, as you say, you don't have enough Latin to recognize when a translation isn't a translation, how come you maintained that it is possible to impose Latin syntax onto English, when the two are very different? Did you discuss this with a Latinist? Or are you simply repeating what some liberals said about Liturgiam Authenticam which they chose to interpret in a very literal manner? (Ironic that, given their attitude to formal equivalence as a principle of translation). John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-42225002311008945152014-04-04T18:48:14.633-04:002014-04-04T18:48:14.633-04:00Thank you, Fr Shelton. I will readily admit to bei...Thank you, Fr Shelton. I will readily admit to being opinionated, and although I try to be objective, I won't shirk controversy. However, being right-thinking (surely a virtue) is not the same as being self-righteous (a vice to which liberals with little understanding of irony and no sense of humour are particularly prone).<br /><br />It's fun to spot the 'literalists' and have some sport at their expense. Three years ago I said on another forum that I would be in favour of a European Union if it were under a Catholic Habsburg Emperor with Latin as its official language. Other contributors actually took me seriously! John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-73457556208393214612014-04-04T17:00:52.741-04:002014-04-04T17:00:52.741-04:00John - You know that I am not a Latinist - and you...John - You know that I am not a Latinist - and you have labeled me a philistine for that - so you know that it was not possible for me to be concerned with the accuracy of the translations we used prior to the new Roman Missal translation. And no, I did not criticize Comme le prevoit because I has no basis for doing so.<br /><br />My "ilk" includes the vast majority of priests who, like me, are not Latinists. The priests studied Latin for 4 or 8 years have told me that they didn't know Latin. They managed to grasp it well enough to pass classes that required it and to celebrate the Sacraments. <br /><br />I have mentioned before our seminary rector, a very well-educated man, PhD and all, who showed us his seminary moral theology textbook that had the translation into English written between the lines. "That's how we passed the tests!" he said.<br /><br />Neither are we scholars of Greek and/or Hebrew, so we rely on the translators who provide translations of the Scriptures. This is not a bad thing, unless one approaches every situation, ecclesial and otherwise, with a foundation of suspicion.<br /><br /> <br /><br /><br /><br />Pater Ignotusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-63267849967317468112014-04-04T15:01:26.559-04:002014-04-04T15:01:26.559-04:00For the record, I consider John Nolan to be one of...For the record, I consider John Nolan to be one of the more balanced commentators on this blog, both in content and in style. Rood Screenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09816036539243214384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-49411765149478118572014-04-04T12:08:28.096-04:002014-04-04T12:08:28.096-04:00Sine nomine:
Cur loqui latine? Secundum Patrem Ig...Sine nomine:<br /><br />Cur loqui latine? Secundum Patrem Ignotum linguam latinam nemo intellegit. Olim talis scientia hominem eruditum, non inflatum, indicabat. <br /><br />Pater Ignotus:<br /><br />In all the years that you used the now superseded 'dynamic equivalence' version were you ever concerned that it did not render the Latin with any degree of accuracy? Did you criticize Comme le prevoit with the vehemence with which you now criticize Liturgiam Authenticam? Did you ever look at the original Latin of (say) a Collect and ask yourself why the English version you used year in, year out, not only missed a lot out, but also inserted material that was never there? Did you ever consider that it might not be the translator's job to alter the meaning of a text to suit his own preconceived ideas? Of course you didn't. Had ICEL 1998 not been rejected I suspect you would have praised the 'inclusive' language and seen nothing wrong with: 'May the Lord accept the sacrifice at your hands to the praise and glory of God's name' regardless of the fact that in avoiding the masculine pronoun the redactors were clearly implying that 'the Lord' and 'God' were different entities. <br /><br />The many priests who celebrated in both Latin and English had far more cause to criticize the English version they were obliged to use than you have to object to the current one, which although not perfect, is at least a translation and not an inaccurate, deficient and frequently tendentious paraphrase. Yet right up until the changeover in 2011 they obediently used it without the whining and whingeing that we hear from you and your ilk. John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-67474412746998688662014-04-03T23:23:47.533-04:002014-04-03T23:23:47.533-04:00Pretty soon John will start speaking Latin.Pretty soon John will start speaking Latin.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-64428445954367467202014-04-03T21:32:46.034-04:002014-04-03T21:32:46.034-04:00Let he or she who has never deviated say "I a...Let he or she who has never deviated say "I am not a deviant.".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-88267433238835647142014-04-03T21:04:10.653-04:002014-04-03T21:04:10.653-04:00I think most of us all know King’s certain peculia...I think most of us all know King’s certain peculiarities in the sphere of sexuality (and the understandable anti-Catholic sentiment he grew-up with). That, of course, in a member of the clergy is not good. I, for one, do not know how to feel about him. I believe his goals to be moral; but I do not believe him to be a moral man. And if the human tragedy of Memphis did not happen, it is uncertain how he would be remembered. I do not particularly like Malcolm X; but I believe him to be a moral man and honest (perhaps caught-up in a not-so-nice organization) in a way King is not. <br /><br />What stands out for me with King (and this changed the way I looked at him) is the case of what happened in Albany, Georgia. One of the criticisms of King (and the upper echelons of the SCLC) is their high-handed approach to local black (and white) activists who put the ball in motion on the ground long before the bigwigs in Atlanta moved-in. The problem of Albany is there was no Eugene Conner to overreact for the cameras. Hence, King and the major players could not get their needed provocation to expose the ugliness of segregation for mainstream white America on the nightly news. And the local activists were, essentially, left to their own devices for white reprisals in Albany. <br /><br />But it is wrong to dismiss King as a heretic and deviant.Nathanaelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-24990859303102006222014-04-03T20:10:21.673-04:002014-04-03T20:10:21.673-04:00Thanks for freedom of the press.Thanks for freedom of the press.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-63611270032779508752014-04-03T19:55:27.517-04:002014-04-03T19:55:27.517-04:00Being perfect, John doesn't understand or tole...Being perfect, John doesn't understand or tolerate or forgive imperfection. (This may get censored.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-85191518301579391832014-04-03T18:41:57.781-04:002014-04-03T18:41:57.781-04:00Many martyrs, when they pointed out the failings i...Many martyrs, when they pointed out the failings in the behavior of the people, made what can be called "political" statements. That demanding an end to segregation was also a political goal does not lessen the fact that it is also a moral goal, one that is wholly supported by the Christian moral tradition.<br /><br />Yes MLKJr is a martyr for justice. And if perfection is required for one to be considered a martyr or a saint, then there would be none.Pater Ignotusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-14358366314569472122014-04-03T18:35:38.805-04:002014-04-03T18:35:38.805-04:00Anonymous says to John Nolan: "Who are you t...Anonymous says to John Nolan: "Who are you to judge?".<br /><br />John Nolan responds: "I am not judging. I am just stating the facts.".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-38310097128994719532014-04-03T18:15:38.883-04:002014-04-03T18:15:38.883-04:00Pater Ignotus,
I appreciate your comments on the ...Pater Ignotus,<br /><br />I appreciate your comments on the present English translation of the missal. However, I wish to point out that I made no reference to particular missal translations in my earlier comments on this post. <br /><br />The typical edition of the reformed Roman Missal is in Latin, with various translations of it being subject to discussion by persons other than myself. Rood Screenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09816036539243214384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-9862624616558288642014-04-03T14:38:53.072-04:002014-04-03T14:38:53.072-04:00John, your pomposity is exceeded only by your self...John, your pomposity is exceeded only by your self-righteousness.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-71688408952841209362014-04-03T14:18:39.294-04:002014-04-03T14:18:39.294-04:00No, Anonymous, it's about a heretic and serial...No, Anonymous, it's about a heretic and serial adulterer making a political statement and then getting shot by a weirdo. Martyrdom requires more than that.John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-27852397522164276502014-04-03T13:08:25.872-04:002014-04-03T13:08:25.872-04:00This is a good day for us to step beyond the walls...This is a good day for us to step beyond the walls of our churches...maybe step out among the sanitation workers in Memphis. On this day in 1968, a true prophet of our time, made his famous, inspiring, moving "I've been to the mountaintop" speech...the night before he became a modern martyr. Look it up and watch and hear it on YouTube. Be warned...it's not about lace and Latin.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-33675818344547286732014-04-03T07:54:55.336-04:002014-04-03T07:54:55.336-04:00Anon 5:16 - The point you make - that the issues w...Anon 5:16 - The point you make - that the issues we face in the Church have their origins (and their solutions) beyond the walls of our churches - is accurate. <br /><br />Many traditionalists don't or won't understand that simply making changes in the language, the rubrics, or the orientation of the mass will not result in the transformation of society.<br /><br />This view explains, I think, why so many here reject the Church's teaching on Social Justice. It is too "outside the walls" to make sense to them or to have an effect on their hearts.<br /><br />"Rebellion" may be too loaded a word to describe the cultural changes that have affected members of the Catholic Church. There have been legitimate and needed changes in culture that have influenced our ecclesial practices in a sort of mutual enrichment process. One would be the growing acceptance of women in societal roles that were once closed to them - CEO, Senate, Doctor, College President. Although on the College President level, it may well have been the Church that promoted women to this leadership position early in the development of their roles in larger society.<br /><br />As long as the view of traditionalists doesn't extend beyond the walls of their individual parishes or their Personal Prelatures or their "traditional" religious orders, their arguments will impede the Church in the fulfillment of our mission to be yeast in the dough of the loaf for the world.Pater Ignotusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-28084632311748164672014-04-02T23:20:19.444-04:002014-04-02T23:20:19.444-04:00As to this blog, I usually sit back and don't ...As to this blog, I usually sit back and don't comment on what I consider to be "no-brainer" noncontroversial posts. It is usually the posts which deal with liturgy which draw out my comments.<br /><br />However, as to this post, the need to re-establish ad orientem prayer in the OF Mass and to re-establish the practice of receiving Holy Communion on the tongue while kneeling (in the OF Mass) are NO BRAINERS! <br /><br />The importance of the spread of the EF in more parishes is because it helps rebuild and reintroduce the liturgical culture in which these things are considered normative. The re-introduction of these practices into the OF will be considerably slowed (or stopped altogether) in parishes where the EF is not offered. Once again, watch the recent homily by Archbishop Sample of Portland. We won't turn things around until we have more bishops who think as he does!Joseph Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00036852763902493131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-21956040051350090132014-04-02T21:07:47.717-04:002014-04-02T21:07:47.717-04:00I don't know how many of the 20% credit the Ma...I don't know how many of the 20% credit the Mass to V2 but I know that I pray for the day when I don't have to hear about V2 any more. It's a boomer obsession.<br /><br />Regarding the Mass, I believe that most priests I've met are not that worried about it. I doubt that even 20% (to reuse your statistic) would be willing to tell their liturgist to cut down on the Haugan -Haas. <br /><br />When Francis was elected Pope all the old Jesuit jokes came out: a well run Jesuit liturgy is one where no one gets hurt. It was patiently explained that Jesuits just don't get hung up on the liturgy. It's not part of their training beyond the rubrics. In my experience, that adequately describes diocesan priests. Not one in my experience has ever said to himself "what this parish needs is a better Mass," Instead they focus on the school, the ministries, adult-ed and the like. The Mass is not front and center.<br /><br />Actually, there WAS a priest in our diocese who put a lot of effort into the Mass and Litugy of the Hours and Latin. His poor parish gained membership, raised enough money to repair the building and was starting to thrive. Then our former Bishop exiled the priest to the hinterlands for unknown reasons. GenXBenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15298459502431357489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-80946260436887985802014-04-02T18:11:23.405-04:002014-04-02T18:11:23.405-04:00God bless you FatherGod bless you FatherПравославный физикhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11313371333531421128noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-80201196622619932162014-04-02T17:16:39.275-04:002014-04-02T17:16:39.275-04:00What reasons do you guys have for thinking that th...What reasons do you guys have for thinking that the form of the liturgy is a major factor in mass attendance or lay understanding of orthodox doctrine? It seems like folks on this blog are always attributing the secularization of Catholics to the changes of Vatican II but similar secularization has occurred across almost every Protestant denomination and non Christian religions too. The root causes of the rebellion (passive or active) against the Church must involve factors much more complex and subtle than change in the liturgy. <br /><br /> Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com