tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post1336265993854728119..comments2024-03-28T20:30:10.681-04:00Comments on southern orders: WHAT IS GOOD LITURGY?Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comBlogger21125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-82841281355783680492015-09-10T17:32:20.104-04:002015-09-10T17:32:20.104-04:00Isn't it also more likely that a person on enc...Isn't it also more likely that a person on encountering an ornate bejeweled crucifix will stop to admire it, and perhaps be drawn into it, and will then ponder the deeper significance and meaning of the cross and the sufferings of our Savior whose representation is affixed to it?Georgenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-51733332110245109342015-09-10T07:35:22.063-04:002015-09-10T07:35:22.063-04:00There are far too many in the Church whose theolog...There are far too many in the Church whose theology stops at the cross...Calvin of Hipponoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-61700824976442684272015-09-09T20:38:38.802-04:002015-09-09T20:38:38.802-04:00I think I finally see the problem here; maybe the ...I think I finally see the problem here; maybe the word "palatable" Is the culprit. Nothing about the cross is palatable, and nothing can embellish that horrendous impalatibilty, as Fr. K accurately points out, except joining our human will with His suffering. I get that. And thus nothing can glorify the cross more than Christ's sacrifice for us accomplished on His cross of wood. I do think however think that "embellished" crosses represent Christ's victory over death and call us to forward to heavenly glory. Just speaking for myself, over a long life I have come to be grateful for the generous donors who have provided these gorgeous embellished crosses to aid my worship of heavenly glory. But I do know "you can't get to heaven save with empty hands". I am totally open to correction. <br /><br />Am I getting your point now, Fr. K? I really do need to get this, as I am rather close to having to justify myself with our Lord, and I suspect He will ask "Who do you say that I am"? I want to honor the true God, not any other.Jdjnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-35498479340379771122015-09-09T18:48:14.602-04:002015-09-09T18:48:14.602-04:00Perhaps My use of bejeweled is the wrong term as i...Perhaps My use of bejeweled is the wrong term as it is too narrow. Stylized crucifixes make the crucifix more palatable to our senses in terms of attractiveness rather than off-putting. I have seen some grotesque crucifixes of Spanish or Latin American origin and these I would not display on my person as jewelry. Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-23160500899854270282015-09-09T18:42:04.858-04:002015-09-09T18:42:04.858-04:00Fr Kavanaugh
I have a certain fondness for the tw...Fr Kavanaugh<br /><br />I have a certain fondness for the two-dimensional tempera on wood crucifixes painted in Italy c.1250-1350 and derived from Byzantine models - Cimabue's is probably the best known. The crucifix in your church is no doubt ideal for its surroundings and as you say, quality of materials and artistic standards are what matter.<br /><br />It was actually Fr McDonald who suggested that ornamentation is to make the image more palatable, whereas I don't believe that's the principal reason for it.<br /><br /><br /><br /> John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-66859758214121196602015-09-09T14:18:23.593-04:002015-09-09T14:18:23.593-04:00John - I think the crucifix wehave in my church is...John - I think the crucifix wehave in my church is as beautiful as any in our Diocese. The cross is plain dark wood and the corpus is a realistic lindenwood, I suspect, image. There is no blood painted on, and no jewels to make the image more palatable.<br /><br />I think some of the "Risen Christ" depictions are well done, but most I have seen are the mass produced catalogue variety that leave much to be desired, artistically speaking. I would not choose one unless it was exceptionally well made and of the highest artistic quality.<br /><br />Gene/Cal - You are giving yourself away with every post!<br />Fr. Michael J. Kavanaughnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-61496981486720086022015-09-09T13:32:44.494-04:002015-09-09T13:32:44.494-04:00Fr Kavanaugh,
I, too am confused. Are you advocat...Fr Kavanaugh,<br /><br />I, too am confused. Are you advocating a plain wooden cross with no corpus? This would appear to violate GIRM 308. Also, in recent times there has been a return to a more stylized version showing a glorified Christ. Traddies hate it - they call it a 'resurrexifix' - so I thought you of all people would have approved.<br /><br />John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-65350452697998882052015-09-09T11:11:24.507-04:002015-09-09T11:11:24.507-04:00Fr. Kavanaugh, you make a lot of ambiguous stateme...Fr. Kavanaugh, you make a lot of ambiguous statements, which are probably a reflection of your own ambivalent theology. <br />You have rarely, if ever, clearly stated anything on this blog. And, I am not Gene...I am Calvin of Hippo.Calvin of Hipponoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-27697635237981995102015-09-09T08:40:05.396-04:002015-09-09T08:40:05.396-04:00Cal/Gene - The wood of the cross is not an idol, a...Cal/Gene - The wood of the cross is not an idol, as I have clearly stated. By the death of Christ on the cross it is made a sign - a SIGN - if the resurrection.<br /><br />Fr. Michael J. Kavanaughnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-72601599725376682842015-09-09T07:39:06.455-04:002015-09-09T07:39:06.455-04:00So, then, take down all your brass, gold, silver, ...So, then, take down all your brass, gold, silver, and whatever crucifixes and replace them all with wood. That should make you feel really righteous and humble and all that good stuff. Idolizing the wood of the Cross does seem a bit over the top, however. Be reminded, it is not the Cross we worship...Calvin of Hipponoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-19308417809188172602015-09-09T07:12:50.302-04:002015-09-09T07:12:50.302-04:00No, Cal, the wood of the cross remains the wood of...No, Cal, the wood of the cross remains the wood of the cross no matter how much it is gussied up. And the wood of the cross, not the gems and precious metals with which we adorn the cross, is the sign of resurrection and life.Fr. Michael J. Kavanaughnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-86600459763446664612015-09-09T06:16:48.613-04:002015-09-09T06:16:48.613-04:00It is not either or. Both types of Crosses have a ...It is not either or. Both types of Crosses have a place in our worship and understanding.Calvin of Hipponoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-29589883636844512682015-09-08T20:58:47.668-04:002015-09-08T20:58:47.668-04:00John - I am not a fan at all of the more gruesome ...John - I am not a fan at all of the more gruesome crucifixes of Spanish, Italian, or Franciscan origin. They overemphasize the physical suffering of Christ evoking an excessively emotional response to the saving sacrifice.<br /><br />The unadorned wood of the cross, while simple, is in no way "ugly." By His death thereupon, Christ has transformed the rugged wood of the cross into the sign of resurrection and life. This was the message ofope St John Paul II on the Feast of the Triumph of the Cross in 1984.<br /><br />This understanding of the transformed meaning of the cross is in no way a part of a "low" Christology. On the contrary, this appreciation of the true meaning of the cross is of the highest Christology. As the wood of the cross, an instrument of torture, has been transformed by Christ, so can we be changed by His grace.<br /><br />The cross, hidden behind the bright, shiny, appealing gems and precious metals, is still the cross. We "pretty it up" in order to, I fear, obscure the real pain and suffering that is part and parcel of a life devoted to Christian witness. Sometimes the decoration flows from a much mpre banal source- the simple desire to show off.<br /><br />"Behold the wood, not the gold and precious stones, on which hung the Savior of the world.'Fr. Michael J. Kavanaughnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-64935963626127393102015-09-08T18:35:46.031-04:002015-09-08T18:35:46.031-04:00The 'realistic' crucifix alluded to by Fr ...The 'realistic' crucifix alluded to by Fr Kavanaugh is associated with late medieval, esp. Franciscan, piety and devotion. I've seen Spanish examples which are particularly gruesome. The earlier (first millennium) tradition was towards the more stylized and ornate. The cross only became the defining symbol of Christianity when the emperor Constantine ended crucifixion as a punishment. However, pagans still disparaged the Christians for their attachment to the cross, and Christians retaliated by ornamenting their crosses. The custom therefore dates from late antiquity.<br /><br />In Charlemagne's cathedral in Aachen there is an exquisite jewelled processional cross, the cross of Lothair, which was made around the year 1000. I was at Mass there ten years ago and it was actually being used for its original purpose. John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-49070813523367332552015-09-08T16:24:53.958-04:002015-09-08T16:24:53.958-04:00Jdj, you "get it." Sadly, many of our Pr...Jdj, you "get it." Sadly, many of our Priests do not.Calvin of Hipponoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-48749843353793939422015-09-08T15:16:29.920-04:002015-09-08T15:16:29.920-04:00Cal, that has certainly been my experience over th...Cal, that has certainly been my experience over the past 53 years as an adult Catholic. Good points. <br />If I "get it" at all, my understanding is that we are changed by the Cross and all that occurred in the violent bloody sacrifice, re-presented in the unbloody sacrifice of Holy Mass, culminating in salvation THROUGH the power of Christ conquering and triumphing over death. <br />If I'm wrong, then I really don't get it and may need supernatural help at this advanced age of brain function.Jdjnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-21374128402319269802015-09-08T08:53:20.552-04:002015-09-08T08:53:20.552-04:00CH, you hit the nail on the head. A low Christolog...CH, you hit the nail on the head. A low Christology that simply focuses on suffering and death in the Liturgy leads to the types of Masses we have in the Ordinary Form with it ugly architecture. Catholic devotional life certainly does focus on the ugliness of the crucifixion especially Latino devotional life, compared to the more sterile American approach. But that's in devotions, not the Liturgy even when the EF Mass was the Ordinary Form of the Mass. High Christology should inform the Mass, low Christology can inform popular devotions. It is here that we can both, not either or. Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-71976006928115814512015-09-08T08:01:07.366-04:002015-09-08T08:01:07.366-04:00Bejeweling the Cross or having ornate Crucifixes i...Bejeweling the Cross or having ornate Crucifixes is done to the glory of God, acknowledging His triumph over death and suffering and highlighting the power of Christ to overcome the ugliness of death and sin. Focusing so intently on the ugliness of the Cross (which is certainly a part of our worship and understanding) obscures the Glory of the Resurrection of Jesus from the dead and the majesty of God which overcomes the Cross and promises Christ's return in glory. This is a favorite theme of progressives and those who have fallen into unbelief...focus on just the humanity and suffering of Christ as an example for us to renew ourselves existentially through an encounter with the man Jesus and his suffering. Humanistic "theology" at its best.Calvin of Hipponoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-36628036653785026372015-09-08T07:56:55.695-04:002015-09-08T07:56:55.695-04:00As Ratzinger once noted, the idea of beauty for th...As Ratzinger once noted, the idea of beauty for the ancient Greeks (as a harmony) is upset by Jesus on the Cross which redefines beauty as based on Love. <br />It is bad enough to figure out what actual/active participation means, but would anyone care to try and define "noble simplicity"?Tednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-73706771668328659272015-09-08T07:17:36.639-04:002015-09-08T07:17:36.639-04:00Following your logic then, you would have preferre...Following your logic then, you would have preferred that Holy Communion actually be like raw meat, cheapest cut and actual blood and we be sprinkled with actual blood not water! This explains what you prefer banal ugly liturgies and architecture.<br />Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-4928965745000778672015-09-08T07:08:07.961-04:002015-09-08T07:08:07.961-04:00The cross is not made beautiful by affixing jewls ...The cross is not made beautiful by affixing jewls or gold that cloud the reality of the violent death accepted by Jesus for our salvation.<br /><br />It is made beautiful as the sign of our salvation precisely by Christ's death on that hard, heavy wood. Hiding the reality under mere human decoration obscures the mystery, the deeper meaning. Christ's execution isn't supposed to be made palatable. We are meant to be changed by its power.Fr. Michael J. Kavanaughnoreply@blogger.com