tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post1159173047566775663..comments2024-03-28T01:50:39.781-04:00Comments on southern orders: THE GRAND SILENCE OF THE ROMAN CANON DURING THE ANCIENT LATIN MASSFr. Allan J. McDonaldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comBlogger47125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-84855883558267312162020-12-28T09:46:32.154-05:002020-12-28T09:46:32.154-05:00Mike, once again your poor reading comprehension i... Mike, once again your poor reading comprehension is your undoing. It was Fr Fox whom I described as 'balanced and charitable'.<br /><br />Regarding 'sex' and 'gender':<br /><br />The two can be, and frequently are, used interchangeably; sometimes for comic effect (Tom Lehrer got a laugh when he referred to 'persons of the opposite gender'). However, they are clearly distinct in that sex is biologically determined whereas gender is essentially a construct. Modern 'gender theory' depends on this distinction, which is far from being nit-picking or hair-splitting.<br /><br />In Latin and the Romance languages the word for 'sun' is of the masculine gender. Would you say it was of the male sex? Of course you wouldn't. In German it is feminine - die Sonne. When it crosses the Franco-German border it doesn't change sex, since it doesn't possess this in the first place, but it does change gender.<br /><br />As I recall, you cited Merriam-Webster to demonstrate that sex and gender were coterminous. Dishonestly, you gave one definition and ignored the others. Did it not occur to you that we all have access to on-line dictionaries?<br /><br />The reason for citing an authoritative source is not to claim authority for oneself - quite the opposite in fact. And my value judgements on your character are based on what you post. They are not negated by the fact that another commentator happens to agree with them. Your logic is akin to this syllogism: Good people are kind to animals. Hitler was kind to animals. Ergo, Hitler was a good person.<br /><br />John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-33739668099392084542020-12-27T20:27:44.456-05:002020-12-27T20:27:44.456-05:00Fr K,
I am reporting you to your bishop and the P...Fr K,<br /><br />I am reporting you to your bishop and the Papal NuncioAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-30819583109795324202020-12-27T20:24:26.154-05:002020-12-27T20:24:26.154-05:00 Bean aka Fr.K
You are a head case - maybe Obama... Bean aka Fr.K <br /><br />You are a head case - maybe Obamacare covers it!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-36792031063216934492020-12-27T16:23:29.593-05:002020-12-27T16:23:29.593-05:00You can't think of another reason for anonymou...You can't think of another reason for anonymous comments? Really? I've found the reactions to anonymous commenters to be hilarious. "It's Terrible!" "It's Awful" "It Shouldn't Be Allowed!" People get SO riled up over nothing.<br /><br />And before you dismiss that as mere provocation, remember the blog owner's disclaimer: "I mean to be provocative and ironically comical with a cynicism matched by few others."<br /><br />You rarely get corrected in fact because, generally, you know you stuff. You might note again that my comments was "Of course, it could not possibly be because a poster is factually wrong, or because not everyone shares your opinions." "A poster" - not you.<br /><br />You accuse others of nit-picking. Go beack and re-read your comments about what you understand to be the difference betyween "sex" and "gender." You pick nits with the best of 'em.'<br /><br />By correcting another's grammar - not that there are errors - are you not you setting yourself forth as the authority, and you even cite authoritative sources to back you up. Of course you are. You are right - others are wrong. Holy Write. Case Closed.<br /><br />Your reading of Fr. McDonald's comments as "balanced and charitable" is selective, although that could be just your memory. <br /><br />Fr. McDonald: Wednesday, August 5, 2015<br />"DUMB, IGNORANT, STUPID REPORTERS AND THOSE WHO BELIEVE WHAT THEY WRITE!"<br /><br />Again, August 17, 2019: "Humility is not their (archbishops) strong suit, hubris is, which is the case with most liturgists unfortunately!"<br /><br />There are numerous other examples - you must have missed them. <br /><br />That your Number One supporter and bonny cheerleader here is TJM tells me quite a bit about the value of you assessment of my character.<br /><br />Dearest Helen P. - Disagreement isn't instigation. Stating one's disagreement with the preferences of others is not instigation.<br />Beannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-58059903809608923682020-12-26T21:10:59.699-05:002020-12-26T21:10:59.699-05:00Perhaps Fr K could keep himself busy writing and s...Perhaps Fr K could keep himself busy writing and submitting articles to Patheos.com ?<br />He could use, I suggest, the anonymous title Fr Michael Beanovich and enlighten Patheos.com readers on a range of Catholic topics with his unique blend of Catholic modernism, Marxist historicism and Foucauldian dogmatic assertions re a radically relativistic worldview....<br /><br />Regards,<br />And a happy new year to all,<br /><br />Cordelia Flyte.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-37595054098876935652020-12-26T18:49:13.953-05:002020-12-26T18:49:13.953-05:00Dearest Bean,
Your last 2 sentences above are sim...Dearest Bean,<br /><br />Your last 2 sentences above are simply inaccurate and quite unfair. John’s “stock in trade” is NOT to “pounce on others”. Do you think that an accurate and fair description re the hundreds and hundreds of comments on this blog written by John over years? 99.9% of the time John shares his knowledge, insights, views and opinions on this blog on matters that interest him and matters he often has extensive knowledge of...<br /><br />This particular comment section from one post out of thousands has descended into rounds of personal insults in a way and to an extent I have not observed in the past 8 years I have followed this blog and, dearest Bean, you have been a main or key instigator of this.<br /><br />If you are not or have not been drinking I suggest a double scotch as soon as possible and do what my daughter does occasionally (eg during Lent) take a holiday from social media and perhaps increase the number of your daily prayers.<br /><br />Helen P.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-56435886409897080802020-12-26T18:17:34.371-05:002020-12-26T18:17:34.371-05:00Bean aka Fr. K,
Give it a rest, you are no match...Bean aka Fr. K,<br /><br /><br />Give it a rest, you are no match for John Nolan. Maybe your bishop might find your inane rantings here sufficient cause to remove you from your post and give your flock a chance at a real Catholic pastor.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-61963797547136290272020-12-26T17:11:06.797-05:002020-12-26T17:11:06.797-05:00Sorry, Mike, you seem to have totally missed the i...Sorry, Mike, you seem to have totally missed the irony of my 8:37 post, which is hardly surprising. Your predilection for pseudonymous and anonymous comments is presumably because should your bishop happen to read them you can lie and say 'It wasn't me, guv, honest.'<br /><br />I can't think of another reason. I have never suggested that my opinions are unchallengeable, although I might reasonably expect that those who do challenge them have reasonable counter-arguments. Nor do I regret agreeing with some things you have posted under your real name - once again you have demonstrated a lack of reading comprehension (and I'm being generous here; the alternative does you no credit). <br /><br />Can you give me a recent occasion on which you have corrected me on a point of fact? I actually welcome such corrections and acknowledge them. The only reason I correct your grammar is that you have a penchant for 'correcting' that of others (and usually getting it wrong yourself).<br /><br />Apart from the blog owner, there are two priests who regularly post on this blog. One is balanced, charitable, and is not afraid to voice his opinions without ever suggesting that they have the force of holy writ. He sees no reason to hide behind anonymity or pseudonymity in order to coarsely rail and crudely sneer. <br /><br />You might consider emulating Fr Fox. As it is, my assessment of your character posted at 11:55 stands. Attacks on me for spurious reasons belie your constant assertions that my strictures have no effect. Actually, Mike, I don't expect them to - the carapace of your ignorant self-regard is probably impenetrable.John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-43555220376127574072020-12-26T13:14:02.081-05:002020-12-26T13:14:02.081-05:00Inferiority complex? Inferior to whom? To you? ...Inferiority complex? Inferior to whom? To you? That you think so is not surprising since you think you're superior to everyone who posts here. <br /><br />Your post at 6:57 had nothing to do with mine of 9:45. Look again at your 8:37 post.<br /><br />You "regret" agreeing with someone whose propositions you agree with. Is that some of your intellect at work, John?<br /><br />You conclude that disagreement with you and other posters on this blog is due to psychiatric illness, an inferiority complex, or malice. Of course, it could not possibly be because a poster is factually wrong, or because not everyone shares your opinions.<br /><br />No, that's not possible since you and those who agree with you are invariably right or, with you faculties in tact, your opinions are unassailable and everyone should agree.<br /><br />Your stock-in-trade is to pounce on others who don't share your preferences. There's the quite disgraceful behavior.Beannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-67179784868589658312020-12-26T11:55:13.205-05:002020-12-26T11:55:13.205-05:00I would have thought that my post at 6:57 simply a...I would have thought that my post at 6:57 simply added to the discussion, not exercising any preferences but perhaps of some use. I did not expect a Catholic priest to reply as Mike Kavanaugh did at 9:45.<br /><br />I shall say this once and with great regret, since I have in the past agreed with some of Mike's propositions or at least recognized where he is coming from even when I disagreed with them.<br /><br />Mike Kavanaugh is a disgrace. One might forgive his lack of intellect but not his lack of charity. I can say, with Hilaire Belloc, 'caritas non conturbat me' but then I am not a priest. The only excuse he might have is that when he posts his anonymous and pseudonymous comments he is obviously drunk.<br /><br />Yet I doubt this. He comes across as a malicious individual burdened with a massive inferiority complex. No amount of psychiatric help is likely to avail him. Quite why he needs to advertise his inadequacies in the way he does is a mystery, not just to me but to most of the contributors to this blog.<br /><br />Inapt analogies, semantic hair-splitting, 'tu quoque' arguments, inability to distinguish genuine irony from crude sarcasm - these are some of the most egregious aspects of his stock-in-trade.<br /><br />He is, in short, utterly unworthy of his calling.John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-26199225876751093822020-12-26T10:18:47.240-05:002020-12-26T10:18:47.240-05:00Bean aka Fr. K,
So puerile, get a life, and YOUR ...Bean aka Fr. K,<br /><br />So puerile, get a life, and YOUR own blogAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-51202046544197946622020-12-26T09:45:12.293-05:002020-12-26T09:45:12.293-05:00John Nolan - You should be aware that there is a n...John Nolan - You should be aware that there is a nasty troll calling himself John Nolan and making you look foolish and pretentious.<br /><br />Oh, wait. That's you.<br /><br />Never mind...Beannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-27382326408240247422020-12-26T06:57:19.163-05:002020-12-26T06:57:19.163-05:00To resume the original discussion:
Praying the Ca...To resume the original discussion:<br /><br />Praying the Canon aloud and in the vernacular dates from 1967. It was also stripped of most of its rubrics, and the new Eucharistic Prayers were circulated in advance of the rollout of the 'Missa Normativa' aka the Novus Ordo.<br /><br />In the older rite of Ordination the new priests 'concelebrate' with the bishop, not standing at the altar as in the modern form but kneeling at the foot of the altar. The bishop prays the Canon audibly to enable the concelebrants to synchronize their words with his. The new rite of concelebration authorized in the mid-1960s necessitated the audible recitation of the Canon. <br /><br />When ascending to the altar the priest and ministers enter the 'holy of holies'. In the ancient Roman basilicas a curtain would be drawn around the ciborium magnum during the Canon - the Byzantine iconostasis serves a similar function.<br /><br />In a Solemn Mass the 'silent' Canon is often overlaid by singing. A polyphonic Sanctus and Benedictus are sung either side of the Consecration and it is a French custom to sing 'O salutaris Hostia' after the Benedictus.<br /><br />In the Novus Ordo the celebrant can sing the entire Canon in Latin or the vernacular. The London Oratory used to do this in the 1970s at their Solemn Mass (in Latin of course) but the practice seems to have been discontinued.John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-23997642888397834702020-12-25T09:12:21.937-05:002020-12-25T09:12:21.937-05:00Bean aka Fr. K does a poor job covering his nasty ...Bean aka Fr. K does a poor job covering his nasty tracks, must be losing itAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-91291359633355981232020-12-25T08:37:21.811-05:002020-12-25T08:37:21.811-05:00Mike, I think you should be aware that there is a ...Mike, I think you should be aware that there is a nasty little troll calling himself Bean who is pretending to be you.<br /><br />Merry Xmas! John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-62487237326603713022020-12-24T20:32:38.857-05:002020-12-24T20:32:38.857-05:00Whether I disappoint you or edify you is none of m...Whether I disappoint you or edify you is none of my concern.<br /><br />None. <br /><br />Good Father McDonald can't demand others follow the rules when he himself does not, can he?<br /><br />Take your imaginary concerns, put them in your pipe, and smoke them.<br /><br />Beannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-44384539717080964002020-12-24T15:24:24.443-05:002020-12-24T15:24:24.443-05:00Mike, it doesn't take long for you to descend ...Mike, it doesn't take long for you to descend to crude insults. Not very edifying for a man of the cloth. Did you forget to hit the Anonymous button? Couldn't you think of a catchy pseudonym? You disappoint me.John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-87881390199893754222020-12-24T15:00:31.231-05:002020-12-24T15:00:31.231-05:00Kinda like SPEED LIMIT laws MUST be followed, eh, ...Kinda like SPEED LIMIT laws MUST be followed, eh, Good Father?Beannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-58918188912747472452020-12-24T10:33:15.852-05:002020-12-24T10:33:15.852-05:00Fortunately, our new bishop, Bishop Stephen Parkes...Fortunately, our new bishop, Bishop Stephen Parkes is encouraging priests who desire to celebrate this Mass because of requests from the faithful to learn how to do so properly. A Polish priest in my former parish of Most Holy Trinity in Augusta and also FRMJK's former parish, is going off to learn it and will offer it at MHT which is ideally suited for it. Augusta has a huge number who have requested it, only to be denied by insensitive pastors who have an obligation mandated by Summorum Pontificum to see to it that the EF Mass is provided for those who request it. <br />Of course, if like FrMJK, a priest is completely off the wall concerning the official language of the Church and Mass, even in the Ordinary Form, he must see to it that a priest is available to offer the EF Mass. Here are the pertinent aspects from Summorum Pontificum which even the good FRMJK must follow:<br /><br />Art. 5, §1 In parishes where a group of the faithful attached to the previous liturgical tradition stably exists, the parish priest should willingly accede to their requests to celebrate Holy Mass according to the rite of the 1962 Roman Missal. He should ensure that the good of these members of the faithful is harmonized with the ordinary pastoral care of the parish, under the governance of the bishop in accordance with Canon 392, avoiding discord and favouring the unity of the whole Church.<br /><br />§2 Celebration according to the Missal of Blessed John XXIII can take place on weekdays; on Sundays and feast days, however, such a celebration may also take place.<br /><br />§3 For those faithful or priests who request it, the pastor should allow celebrations in this extraordinary form also in special circumstances such as marriages, funerals or occasional celebrations, e.g. pilgrimages.<br /><br />§4 Priests using the Missal of Blessed John XXIII must be qualified (idonei) and not prevented by law.<br /><br />§5 In churches other than parish or conventual churches, it is for the rector of the church to grant the above permission.<br /><br />Art. 6. In Masses with a congregation celebrated according to the Missal of Blessed John XXIII, the readings may be proclaimed also in the vernacular, using editions approved by the Apostolic See.<br /><br />Art. 7. If a group of the lay faithful, as mentioned in Art. 5, §1, has not been granted its requests by the parish priest, it should inform the diocesan bishop. The bishop is earnestly requested to satisfy their desire. If he does not wish to provide for such celebration, the matter should be referred to the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei.Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-85288043251955398542020-12-24T10:32:46.749-05:002020-12-24T10:32:46.749-05:00Fr. K,
Seek help, you need it.Fr. K,<br /><br />Seek help, you need it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-25510179679889792182020-12-24T10:17:55.475-05:002020-12-24T10:17:55.475-05:00John - Yes, my analogies are apt. No, they do not...John - Yes, my analogies are apt. No, they do not apply only to me. Long johns are, to my knowledge, worn by no one in Savannah in August because they are unnecessary. I would go so far as to say that those who find them unnecessary hold no antipathy to them.<br /><br />The same goes for braces for teeth.<br /><br />You were wrong. Be an adult and acknowledge it, at least to your supercilious self.<br /><br />Fr. Michael J. Kavanaughnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-69703618783750859852020-12-24T08:37:54.155-05:002020-12-24T08:37:54.155-05:00Mike, stop nit-picking. For once your analogies (l...Mike, stop nit-picking. For once your analogies (long-johns and tooth braces) are apt, since they only apply to yourself. The same goes for your opinions regarding liturgical Latin. As I said before, you are as entitled to your opinions, preferences and prejudices as the next man. <br /><br />Neither yours, nor mine, nor Fr McDonald's by themselves establish a general principle.John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-561509289500211922020-12-23T17:13:35.478-05:002020-12-23T17:13:35.478-05:00Fr K,
Give it a rest. You’re showing your age. I ...Fr K,<br /><br />Give it a rest. You’re showing your age. I guess tradition is for the young and not the jadedAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-34367146457628553042020-12-23T16:30:27.667-05:002020-12-23T16:30:27.667-05:00"But to say 'I do not see any need for it..."But to say 'I do not see any need for it in our liturgies' implies an antipathy towards liturgical Latin, which was my exact point."<br /><br />No, it does not imply antipathy. They're my words - I know what they mean. <br /><br />I have no antipathy towards liturgical Latin. I find it unnecessary.<br /><br />I find wearing long johns in August, or almost any month since we have a temperate climate here in Savannah, unnecessary. I don't have antipathy for long johns.<br /><br />I find having braces on my teeth unnecessary since they are naturally straight. I have no antipathy for braces.<br /><br />Fr. Michael J. Kavanaughnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-61783106833439769222020-12-23T14:24:41.359-05:002020-12-23T14:24:41.359-05:00Fr MJK
You may not have an antipathy towards Lati...Fr MJK<br /><br />You may not have an antipathy towards Latin as a language, and for all I know enjoy reading Horace, Cicero or Ovid in the original. But to say 'I do not see any need for it in our liturgies' implies an antipathy towards liturgical Latin, which was my exact point.<br /><br />By 'our liturgies' I assume you mean what goes on in your parish. I can direct you to very many parishes which are not of the same opinion. <br /><br /><br />John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.com