tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post8966673539878917674..comments2024-03-28T20:30:10.681-04:00Comments on southern orders: I THINK I SUFFER FROM MULTIPLE LITURGICAL PERSONALITY DISORDER! WHAT IS THE CURE ESPECIALLY SINCE I THRIVE WITH THIS DISORDER?Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comBlogger37125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-31709616380102904402018-02-02T17:57:16.814-05:002018-02-02T17:57:16.814-05:00Anonymous, the laughter of you and your fellow ign...Anonymous, the laughter of you and your fellow ignoramuses is 'sicut sonitus spinarum ardentium sub olla' (Ecclesiastes 7:7).<br />John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-36577823822513786382018-02-02T15:10:55.789-05:002018-02-02T15:10:55.789-05:00Believe me, John Nolan, we "ignoramuses"...Believe me, John Nolan, we "ignoramuses" are just laughing at your imaginary superiority. That is our real prize.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-12301438028257322802018-02-02T13:17:02.970-05:002018-02-02T13:17:02.970-05:00Anonymous, should you go to a psychoanalyst with y...Anonymous, should you go to a psychoanalyst with your obvious inferiority complex he would no doubt say: 'Don't worry about it. It's not a complex. You ARE inferior.'John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-40745152192613835462018-02-02T08:24:35.731-05:002018-02-02T08:24:35.731-05:00"...the discerning minority are outnumbered b... "...the discerning minority are outnumbered by the ignoramuses."<br /><br />Yes, we "ignoramuses" (or "deplorables" if you like) should simply bow down to your superiority and that of your "discerning" ilk.<br /><br />Enjoy the wait. And enjoy your self-congratulatory prize.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-67289624508768469162018-02-02T04:12:58.132-05:002018-02-02T04:12:58.132-05:00Yes, anonymous, it is a fact that the discerning m...Yes, anonymous, it is a fact that the discerning minority are outnumbered by the ignoramuses. 'Twas ever so. One proof of discernment is to identify with the former rather than the latter.<br /><br />No prizes for guessing to which camp you belong. John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-12872389570275620672018-02-01T16:54:25.888-05:002018-02-01T16:54:25.888-05:00"...the more discerning of us..."
You m..."...the more discerning of us..."<br /><br />You might as well have added "Sniff! Sniff!" Go, discerning one, and be happy with yourself.<br /><br />And, there, folks, you have it.<br /><br /><br /><br /> Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-68467555005171082832018-02-01T15:12:52.978-05:002018-02-01T15:12:52.978-05:00Anonymous/Kavanaugh
If you wish to believe that ...Anonymous/Kavanaugh <br /><br />If you wish to believe that the overturning of nearly two millennia of liturgical tradition is 'the mind of the Church', then no-one is stopping you. If you believe that a vernacular 'over-the counter' performance, with trite music written since 1965 and lay people of either sex swarming all over what used to be the sanctuary, somehow represents the best of the Roman liturgical patrimony, then go ahead and think it. If you think that Latin is of no use, then that is your prerogative. (You might be hard pressed to find authoritative papal teaching which explicitly endorses your preferences, but this is unlikely to stop you.) <br /><br />After all, you are in a multitudinous company of like-minded clerics of your generation. O brave new world that has such people in't!<br /><br />However, the more discerning of us are with Prospero rather than Miranda. We know what to avoid, and by the grace of God we do. And the likes of you are at the top of the list.John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-22073625831838132332018-01-31T20:06:09.096-05:002018-01-31T20:06:09.096-05:00The teaching office of the Church, in particular t...The teaching office of the Church, in particular the Supreme Pontiff, in the late 20th century is as authoritative as it wss in any and all previous times, is it not?<br /><br />So, I think it is helpful, indeed, to know the mind of the Church in this regard.<br /><br />Even the "dolly-birds" appreciate this reality. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-21678835891283000662018-01-31T17:44:19.013-05:002018-01-31T17:44:19.013-05:00"In fact, a Solemn Mass in the Roman Rite has..."In fact, a Solemn Mass in the Roman Rite has always been a clerical affair..."<br /><br />And, therein, lies what was seen to be an essential weakness of the Solemn Mass of the Roman Rite.<br /><br />It certainly came to be a clerical affair, but I suspect there is little in the way of theological reasoning for it to be so.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-69600409287611727012018-01-31T16:01:02.748-05:002018-01-31T16:01:02.748-05:00Quoting late 20th century liturgical directives on...Quoting late 20th century liturgical directives on lay 'participation' is not particularly helpful.<br /><br />Nor is the idea that delegating responses to altar servers was anything other than a second millennium development resulting from the proliferation of 'low' Masses. In a Solemn Mass the said responses are made by the ministers (deacon and subdeacon).<br /><br />In fact, a Solemn Mass in the Roman Rite has always been a clerical affair - celebrant, ministers, schola cantorum. And the Solemn Mass is normative. Even nowadays when a lay schola sings in the sanctuary its members wear clerical choir dress, since they are substituting for clerics.<br /><br />By all means adopt a late 20th century version of the Mass with lots of dialogue and lay participation, if that's what turns you on. Let dolly-birds in short skirts hand out Communion wafers, if that lights your candle.<br /><br />But don't kid yourself that it represents the traditional Mass in any shape or form.<br /><br /> <br /><br />John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-4425072512486542732018-01-31T11:53:35.552-05:002018-01-31T11:53:35.552-05:00John Larkin - Your claim was not that responses fr...John Larkin - Your claim was not that responses from the congregation became "unwieldy," but that the congregation was "never enthusiastic."<br /><br />No one I know feels "forced to mumble responses" and none I have ever encountered are "unhappy" about it.<br /><br />If the dialogue between the priest and the people in the congregation, representing the dialogue between God and the people, is the preferred style, then relegating the responses to altar servers seems not to make perfect sense, but to be a capitulation to convenience.<br /><br />Pope Pius XII De Musica Sacra, 1958 : "22. By its very nature, the Mass requires that all present take part in it, each having a particular function.<br /><br />a) Interior participation is the most important; this consists in paying devout attention, and in lifting up the heart to God in prayer. In this way the faithful "are intimately joined with their High Priest...and together with Him, and through Him offer (the Sacrifice), making themselves one with Him" (Mediator Dei, Nov. 20, 1947: AAS 39 [1947] 552).<br /><br />b) The participation of the congregation becomes more complete, however, when, in addition to this interior disposition, exterior participation is manifested by external acts, such as bodily position (kneeling, standing, sitting), ceremonial signs, and especially responses, prayers, and singing.<br /><br />The Supreme Pontiff Pius XII, in his encyclical on the sacred liturgy, Mediator Dei, recommended this form of participation:<br />"Those who are working for the exterior participation of the congregation in the sacred ceremonies are to be warmly commended. This can be accomplished in more than one way. The congregation may answer the words of the priest, as prescribed by the rubrics, or sing hymns appropriate to the different parts of the Mass, or do both. Also, at solemn ceremonies, they may alternate in singing the liturgical chant (AAS 39 [1947] 560)".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-89065513823010095762018-01-31T08:45:41.696-05:002018-01-31T08:45:41.696-05:00Bee,
Correct and one of those cultural catholic p...Bee,<br /><br />Correct and one of those cultural catholic priests posts here regularly. They are buying a one way ticket to hell, they just don't know it yet. TJMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-19522133557813798202018-01-31T06:53:25.006-05:002018-01-31T06:53:25.006-05:00Somebody asked me for a source concerning my asser...Somebody asked me for a source concerning my assertion that altar servers were introduced initially to represent the responses of the congregation.<br />I can not remember where I first came across this but it makes perfect sense.<br />The early small Christian masses could mange dialogue between celebrant and congregation.<br />As numbers grew it became unwieldy and altar servers started to recite the responses on behalf of larger congregations.<br />That working sensible practice was discarded after Vatican 2 and you now have a generally unhappy congregation forced to mumble these responses in a lacklustre muted manner.<br />That is what happens now at most catholic masses around the world .<br />It is caused by the iarrogant theology that infected the second Vatican Council, a theology that saw all past forms and practices as deficient <br />And ineffective.<br />Now a bunch of still out of date cardinals and bishops keep insisting that the so called reforms of Vat 2 were all wonderful!<br />The drastic decline in priestly vocations since Vat 2 is the answer to that.<br />Signed:John LarkinAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-1316029767732631412018-01-31T00:34:37.768-05:002018-01-31T00:34:37.768-05:00Bee here:
I recently was talking to one of those ...Bee here:<br /><br />I recently was talking to one of those Clinton voting Catholics. She also happened to mention that she doesn't believe in having to go to confession to be forgiven for your sins either. And neither does her 80-something year old father, who was educated by Jesuits (by which she seemed to imply she was justified in her practice).<br /><br />I would love if the poll conducted by the American National Election Study had also asked the Catholic voters the last time they went to confession, and how frequently they go per year. I would love to see the data broken down by that further sub-category. There are lots of cultural Catholics out there. Some of them are clergy.<br /><br />God bless.<br />Bee<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-54971425991180258912018-01-30T22:25:04.082-05:002018-01-30T22:25:04.082-05:00Pres.Trump, what ever his faults, is far better th...<br />Pres.Trump, what ever his faults, is far better than having another Clinton in the Oval office. You don't believe that? <br /><br />How about the fourteen "Catholic" senators who voted against a ban on abortions after 20 weeks? Are these the type of politicians you support and would vote for?<br /><br />Mr. Trump, in his persona, leaves a lot to be desired; but in the end he will be judged by his policies,the judges he nominates, and the laws he helps to enact. It is too early in his term to assess him. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br />James J.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-58559454942867875802018-01-30T22:09:16.893-05:002018-01-30T22:09:16.893-05:00Catholics born b/w 1942 and 1960: 53% Trump, 46% ...Catholics born b/w 1942 and 1960: 53% Trump, 46% ClintonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-89036979212371674862018-01-30T19:15:37.636-05:002018-01-30T19:15:37.636-05:00Anonymous Kavanaugh,
Interesting there are no num...Anonymous Kavanaugh,<br /><br />Interesting there are no numbers for Catholics born and trained before Vatican Disaster II worked its magic and Catholics no longer were taught their Faith in a meeaningful way. The difference between the first two categories is shocking. It shows and utter and complete collapse of Catholics believing in their Faith.<br /><br />Can you imagine a Catholic politician being pro-Abortion in the 1950s or early 1960s when the Church was at the zenith of its influence in the US? They would not have dared. Cardinal O'Connell of Boston in the 1920s or 1930s demanded and the Massachusetts legislature killed a bill authorizing the sale of contraceptives. If Cardinal Cushing had done his job and told lady killer Teddy Kennedy that he would excommunicate him for his pro-aborton stance, the game would have been over then. But we have corrupt bishops and priests who care more about their tax exempt status than the Faith <br /><br />Tis the whiff of Satan's smoke in the sanctuary and may God have mercy on your soulTJMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-28675229940482870092018-01-30T18:11:44.859-05:002018-01-30T18:11:44.859-05:00CARA reports: Data from the American National Ele...CARA reports: Data from the American National Election Study (ANES) shows Catholics voted 48% Clinton, 45% Trump.<br /><br />Catholics born between 1961 and 1981: 46% Clinton, 46% Trump.<br /><br />Catholics born 1982 or later: 59% Clinton, 28% Trump.<br /><br />Non-Hispanic White Catholics: 37% Clinton, 56% Trump.<br /><br />Hispanic/Latino Catholics: 74% Clinton, 19% Trump.<br /><br />Other races/ethnicities: 75% Clinton, 18% Trump.<br /><br />'Tis the hand of God on the wall...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-13255300644098209212018-01-30T17:04:29.995-05:002018-01-30T17:04:29.995-05:00TJM, perhaps instead of blaming the clergy (for th...TJM, perhaps instead of blaming the clergy (for the Dick Durbins and Tim Kaines of the world), we should blame ourselves---the laity. It is not as if these pro-abortion Democrats appointed themselves to office; someone had to elect them. And I don't know of any state where Catholic clergy alone (even if they were all conservative) could elect someone to statewide office, or local office for that matter. As a bishop in New Jersey said years ago, Catholics should be known for voting on moral concerns, not membership in a political party.<br /><br />White Catholics generally vote Republican these days, but doubtless more so in the South than in the liberal Northeast. Trump actually won the white Catholic vote in 2016, crucial to his success in Rust Belt states like Michigan and Pennsylvania.<br /><br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-65357353329176815992018-01-30T15:53:03.019-05:002018-01-30T15:53:03.019-05:00"I am transported by this form of the Mass in..."I am transported by this form of the Mass into a form of mysticism that I have never experienced in the OF Mass."<br /><br />It seems as though every priest who learns to celebrate the EF Mass says he experiences something in it that he's never experienced in the OF Mass, learns something about his own identity as a priest, serving as mediator between God and Man, that he never knew as a Novus Ordo priest.<br /><br />And I know that, as a layman, I experience something at EF Mass that I've never quite been able to duplicate at OF Mass, try as hard as I may. (And I've tried very hard indeed, over and over, at both Sunday OF Mass during the decades the was unavailable and at many years of daily OF Mass every weekday.) Henryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12780755069760197497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-64856222555924638262018-01-30T13:25:43.739-05:002018-01-30T13:25:43.739-05:00"Did you know this idea was tried in the earl..."Did you know this idea was tried in the early church and fell into disuse because the congregation were never enthusiastic .?<br /><br />Source?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-32063261314113721282018-01-30T10:40:53.094-05:002018-01-30T10:40:53.094-05:00Anonymous at 9:50, you're speaking of all of K...Anonymous at 9:50, you're speaking of all of Kavanaugh's pals! Not nice to point out the hypocrisy rampant there. Our bishops are gutless wonders. That's why I only give money directly to an orthodox, Catholic parish. Nothing to Peter's Pence or any diocesan fund. And I specify it may ONLY be used for the parish.TJMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-51695352794218149472018-01-30T09:50:54.363-05:002018-01-30T09:50:54.363-05:00Speaking of "disorder", looks like a lot...Speaking of "disorder", looks like a lot of Catholic Democratic senators suffer from that---they probably go to church on Sunday and then on Monday vote as if they were a million miles removed from Sunday....yesterday the Senate failed to get 60 votes to advance an abortion ban after 20 weeks (of course it is not as if the Church approves of abortion at 19 weeks, but these days incrementalism is the only way to advance pro-life legislation)---and most Catholic Democrats voted against advancing such legislation, including the 2016 vice presidential nominee, Tim Kaine of Virginia (who obviously was raised in the "social justice" era of the Church). Even Dick Durbin of Illinois, who has been sanctioned by his bishop (Springfield) for his pro-choice views, unfortunately has not had a change of heart. And in the US House, 99 percent of Democrats voted against the 20-week ban---including of course Nancy Pelosi. It is probably long past time for bishops, where needed, to invoke Canon 915 (which is not an issue with Georgia's congressional delegation in the sense all of the delegation is Protestant).<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-12315616106709470322018-01-30T09:46:47.548-05:002018-01-30T09:46:47.548-05:00Dear FR.Allen.
The cure is a return to a mass that...Dear FR.Allen.<br />The cure is a return to a mass that contains ordered rubrics, appropriate silences, and a return of respect to the laity present.<br />That respect was removed when the hierarchy imposed the dialogue mass.<br />Now you have an audience required to mumble set responses.<br />Did you know this idea was tried in the early church and fell into disuse because the congregation were never enthusiastic .?<br />That is why altar servers were brought in to substitute and represent the laity.<br />In my local church there can be up to 8 so called altar servors who fill no real function. Two bring up cruets and one rings a bell.<br />The liturgy was and remains badly damaged by the effects of Vatican 2.<br />That is probably the primary reason for the loss of catholic faith.<br />Lex Orlandi Lex Credendi.<br />Saying mass used to be the central act in the life of a catholic priest and it never required the participation of the laity.<br />As an ordained priest you are in a position to do something about the contemporary liturgical mass and its current form which IMO leaves very much to be desired from the laity,s point of view.<br />Kind regards.<br />John Larkin.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-58702662175780443152018-01-29T20:43:30.856-05:002018-01-29T20:43:30.856-05:00Bee here:
@rcg: hee, hee... :-)
God bless.
BeeBee here:<br /><br />@rcg: hee, hee... :-)<br /><br />God bless.<br />BeeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com