tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post8913537556745618490..comments2024-03-28T16:23:19.433-04:00Comments on southern orders: SSPX AND INVALID SACRAMENTS! BECAUSE OF THEIR SUSPENSION AD DIVINIS AND FROM THE HIGHEST SOURCE IN THE CHURCH POSSIBLE, THE VATICAN, ALL THE SACRAMENTS OF PENANCE THEY PERFORM ARE INVALID IN MOST CASES AS ARE THEIR WEDDINGS IN ALL CASESFr. Allan J. McDonaldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-49991276196726650762015-03-02T16:46:22.059-05:002015-03-02T16:46:22.059-05:00Sorry for jumping in so late. I'm just very su...Sorry for jumping in so late. I'm just very surprised that the author of this article never replied to the evidence set forth by Templar concerning the validity if the marriages. So far I've never heard anyone refute the argument if canon 1335 and those who argue the doubt point only apply it to ordinary jurisdiction. They never address doubt as to the supplied jurisdiction. Is the author admitting he's wrong?Megnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-28413610062285988712013-06-21T19:17:19.892-04:002013-06-21T19:17:19.892-04:00Unknown - Since the Church tells us that NO priest...Unknown - Since the Church tells us that NO priests are true priests, Catholics accept this as truth. Catholics do, but some who have steeped away from the Faith may think otherwise.<br /><br />At mass, the priest BOTH offers sacrifice AND presides over the assembly. It's not either/or.Pater Ignotusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-8092384881165749172013-06-20T15:12:39.612-04:002013-06-20T15:12:39.612-04:00You know, there are many good reasons that favour ...You know, there are many good reasons that favour the hypothesis that the Novus Ordo 'Presbyterate' is not the Catholic Priesthood, not a sacrificing priesthood but merely an 'Elder' position to 'preside' over the assembly. If you argue the matter it from the viewpoint of the rite's intention it is plain that there is significant doubt. That said, where then with your questioning the FSSPX? Are you even Priests?Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05765091813434261894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-91281453803246421062013-06-20T13:39:34.169-04:002013-06-20T13:39:34.169-04:00Marc: The great thing about banging your head aga...Marc: The great thing about banging your head against the wall is it feels sooooooo good when you stop.Templarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18204866760862707908noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-75861440353032745332013-06-20T12:24:33.585-04:002013-06-20T12:24:33.585-04:00Yes, then you went on to describe how they are sch...Yes, then you went on to describe how they are schismatic, using present tense verbs in so doing. You went so far as to advise these Catholics of "pouring salt in the wounds of the Body of Christ". <br /><br />It is against these ridiculous and outlandish (not to mention self-evidently hypocritical) accusations that I am responding. <br /><br />My defense of my fellow Catholics is anything but an overreaction given the substance of the insult. <br /><br />Anyhow, that's enough of this discussion. I apologize for continuing to engage in it for as long as I have. You can have the last word. Marcnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-6485249748453904472013-06-20T11:17:08.643-04:002013-06-20T11:17:08.643-04:00Marc - In my post on 19 June at 6:27 I said, "...Marc - In my post on 19 June at 6:27 I said, "... This was an act of extreme disobedience, a rejection of the legitimate authority of the Pope and the Holy See, and warranted latae sententiae excommunication. (since lifted)..."<br /><br />See the last two words - Since Lifted? No, I have not overlooked this.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-42645587366169770422013-06-20T11:08:59.068-04:002013-06-20T11:08:59.068-04:00Right. Okay, yes, Father, I understand that is you...Right. Okay, yes, Father, I understand that is your position and we have discussed it ad nauseum now. I agree people should simply seek out priests who clearly have jurisdiction for Confession and Matrimony. And we must remember that the SSPX are a society of priests and have no lay members. <br /><br />My beef is not with you, Father, but with Anonymous who is spreading false information about these Catholics. Marcnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-86984262431182481782013-06-20T10:57:30.314-04:002013-06-20T10:57:30.314-04:00They are not now in schism and as a whole the SSPX...They are not now in schism and as a whole the SSPX never has been, only Archbishop Lebferve and the bishops he ordained and any others ordained while the ordaining bishops were excommunicated. That has been lifted, but the bishops and priests are still suspended ad divinis as a warning to the faithful, either those who are still associated with the SSPX or those tempted to associate with them, that they should not be and should find priests who are in regular situations especially for the valid celebration of the Sacrament of Penance and most certainly for the Sacrament of Marriage. Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-9974952227925580472013-06-20T10:51:02.768-04:002013-06-20T10:51:02.768-04:00I agree with all that, Father, and I've never ...I agree with all that, Father, and I've never said otherwise. I disagree with those consecrations, but I understand the situation that led to it. Pope Benedict clearly understood it as well, which is why he lifted the excommunications.<br /><br />What you're discussing, however, is not the issue in light of the lifted excommunications. The issue is whether they are schismatic NOW. They are not because the declaration of excommunication in this case is a power of the Pope. Unless you've been promoted or this Anonymous is the Holy Father, neither of you are competent to judge this issue. And by attempting to do so, you assign to yourselves the same power of judgment over Church issues as you criticize the SSPX for attempting to use with others in the Church. This is exactly the sort of thing the Pope talked about yesterday. <br /><br />How is anything I've posted an overreaction?Marcnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-20445592532930748662013-06-20T10:33:05.929-04:002013-06-20T10:33:05.929-04:00Marc, you are overreacting. When Archbishop Lefebr...Marc, you are overreacting. When Archbishop Lefebrve was excommunicated along with the illicit bishops he had ordained, this was an act of schism on their part that incurred automatic excommunication. The bishops while they were in excommunication were schismatic bishops. I do not know the intricacies of how the schismatic bishops while in schism during their excommunication did not also include priests and the faithful of the SSPX, but it did not, perhaps an act of generosity on the part of Pope John Paul II to keep the faithful and the priests in an irregular situation but not in an excommunicated, schismatic one. This must have been because of a pastoral solicitude the Holy Father had for the priests and the faithful and to keep them within the boundaries of the Church, but make no mistake, during the time the bishops were excommunicated it was because of an act of schism with the See of Peter.Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-29025244660001136902013-06-20T10:24:54.577-04:002013-06-20T10:24:54.577-04:00I know what schism is, and so does the Pope. Since...I know what schism is, and so does the Pope. Since he judges these things, not you or me, your attempt to usurp his judgment puts you in the disobedient camp: you appear unwilling to submit to his judgment in this instance. <br /><br />Further, you seem to have forgotten the excommunications were lifted... I guess you have also forgotten the forgiveness aspect of the Faith. Thankfully, unlike you again, the Pope has not. <br /><br />You blathering on about schism is precisely the sort of internal disunity the Pope was addressing yesterday in his homily, is it not?Marcnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-43463383136578223972013-06-20T09:58:43.978-04:002013-06-20T09:58:43.978-04:00Marc - Ordaining bishops without the Holy See'...Marc - Ordaining bishops without the Holy See's approval is an act of schism. Schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him. <br /><br />The suggestion that the SSPX "committed schismatic acts but is not in schism" is laughable in the extreme. Can you imagine "he committed an act of extortion, but he is not an extortionist"? It is impossible.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-4571651444853937592013-06-20T09:58:36.065-04:002013-06-20T09:58:36.065-04:00Anon: Thanks for the emotional response, but it d...Anon: Thanks for the emotional response, but it doesn't change the fact that the specific event to which you refer is the one event in the SSPX saga that has been ruled upon and removed from discussion. Whatever the 1988 Ordinations were or weren't, they are no longer in play, so I will spare everyone the equally emotional response that I could put up in defense of what they did. The SSPX makes no such declarations that you attribute to them, and in fact repeatedly make declarations of filial obedience, those in the SSPX who could not do so left in 1983 to form the SSPV.Templarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18204866760862707908noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-42766716534276941122013-06-20T09:29:18.512-04:002013-06-20T09:29:18.512-04:00Best to watch out for your own splinter there, Ano...Best to watch out for your own splinter there, Anonymous. For it is you who are speaking against the Holy See by pronouncing judgments that the Pipe has refused to make and that have been specifically rejected by the Pope; that is, the SSPX are not schismatic. For you to arrogantly claim otherwise despite the Holy Father's judgment to the contrary puts you, not them, in the disobedient camp.<br /><br />How about addressing your concerns to those who seek to bring down the Church instead of those looking to build her back up...?Marcnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-55742503985837728682013-06-20T07:54:44.966-04:002013-06-20T07:54:44.966-04:00Templar - The illicit ordination of bishops by Arc...Templar - The illicit ordination of bishops by Archbishop Lefebvre and the immediate excommunication of those involved is the fulcrum - it is the moment at which disagreement with the Holy See and the legitimate authority of the Vicar of Christ became an ACT of SCHISM. <br /><br />It is the distillation of the unbridled arrogance of those who, with clear minds and a superabundance of self-righteousness, declared themselves to be the Church over and against -yes, against - the pope and the college of bishops in union with him.<br /><br />It is the SSPX that has the ball now - they can continue to retreat from full unity, from filial obedience, and remain a source of scandal and division, pouring salt into the wounds they themselves have caused in the Body of Christ. Or they can accept the legitimate authority of the Holy See and eliminate their claims to know better than everyone else in the Catholic world.<br /><br /> <br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-87269345326821567342013-06-20T06:32:54.940-04:002013-06-20T06:32:54.940-04:00As much as I appreciate the "appreciation&quo...As much as I appreciate the "appreciation" I don't want anyone thinking I'm smarter than I am. Those aren't my own words, they are largely cut and pasted.<br /><br />Although I consider myself fairly intelligent, I am not in the class of many others around here. I am not trained to have these discussions. But I can read and comprehend quite well, and that I have done, and shared for those with an open mind.<br /><br />One final note: To Anon at 627PM. You state that the irregularity of the SSPX is directly related to the Ordination of Bishops, and that is not so. In fact it is the most clearly discussed part of the SSPX saga. The Archbishop and those he elevated were excommunicated in 1988 and Pope B16 lifted the excommunication. It is the one thing that has actually been addressed by competent authority. No the irregularity of the SSPX is traced back to my first post in this thread, where their order was illegally suppressed without the proper authority and everyone else in the Church acts as if it was valid. The Pope, anyone of them from Paul VI to Francis can resolve this by simply ruling on it as the competent authority in the matter of a Society, but yet none has. That alone leaves plenty of room for doubt. Templarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18204866760862707908noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-50046205361568261012013-06-20T06:12:34.795-04:002013-06-20T06:12:34.795-04:00Oh, so you are that Anonymous. Well, it is pretty ...Oh, so you are that Anonymous. Well, it is pretty difficult to take you seriously since you never responded to my post regarding the Fatherhood of God. No surprise however...you only want to carp.Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-60838373144128204172013-06-20T05:01:03.280-04:002013-06-20T05:01:03.280-04:00No, I haven't read it, just came across it in ...No, I haven't read it, just came across it in a google search of images and thought it fit my theme :)Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-45857440214758913882013-06-19T20:58:15.104-04:002013-06-19T20:58:15.104-04:00Father, you post an image of a book by Dr Coomaras...Father, you post an image of a book by Dr Coomaraswamy. (Yes, he does sound a bit like an Indian restaurant). Have you read the book? And if so, do you agree with it?John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-46164066065055991602013-06-19T20:18:04.725-04:002013-06-19T20:18:04.725-04:00Gene - Deal with what's posted - or not. Your...Gene - Deal with what's posted - or not. Your choice.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-3133847804267824512013-06-19T19:40:55.828-04:002013-06-19T19:40:55.828-04:00Anonymous, please add some designation to your &qu...Anonymous, please add some designation to your "anonymous" so we can distinguish you from all the other anonymi. This gets confusing.Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-1968489901900594302013-06-19T19:35:11.742-04:002013-06-19T19:35:11.742-04:00RE: Templar (Best Uncle Jed voice): "That boy...RE: Templar (Best Uncle Jed voice): "That boy, he don't say much, but when he does, whooeee!!"Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-28861992670362647462013-06-19T19:31:37.807-04:002013-06-19T19:31:37.807-04:00Anything that has caused as much division, dissens...Anything that has caused as much division, dissension, and destruction in the Church can be neither good nor pleasing to God. I view the aftermath as God's judgement upon the Church. A brief reminder from Amos:<br />"I hate , I despise your feasts,<br />and I take no delight in your solemn assemblies.<br />Even though you offer me your <br />burnt offerings and cereal offerings,<br />I will not accept them, and the peace offerings <br />of your fatted beasts<br />I will not look upon.<br />Take away from me the noise of your songs;<br />to the melody of your harps I will not listen.<br />But let justice roll down like waters and righteousness like an ever-flowing stream."<br /><br />The issue here was cultural and religious syncretism,<br />you know, what passed for "ecumenicism" in that day...just sayin'... Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-62360798337202536932013-06-19T19:20:24.217-04:002013-06-19T19:20:24.217-04:00When issuing the decrees that the Order of the mas...When issuing the decrees that the Order of the mass should be revised, the Second Vatican Council ruled, among other things, that certain rites were to be restored to the vigor which they had in the days of the Holy Fathers. These are the very words used by St. Pius V in his Apostolic Constitution Quo Primum whereby he promulgated the Tridentine Missal of 1570. The employment of the very same words indicates that the two Missals, though separated in time by four centuries, are nevertheless inspired by and embody one and the same tradition. Reflection on the basic content of this tradition will show that the new Missal is a considerable improvement on the old one.<br /><br />In those troubled days St Pius V was unwilling to make any changes in the rites except minor ones; he was intent on preserving (NOTE:) more recent tradition, because at that time attacks were being made on the doctrine that the Mass is a sacrifice, that its ministers are priests, and that Christ is really and abidingly present under the eucharistic species.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-83032175440488686502013-06-19T18:27:51.061-04:002013-06-19T18:27:51.061-04:00Both sides here, the Holy See and the SSPX, cannot...Both sides here, the Holy See and the SSPX, cannot both be right. They are not diametrically opposed, but the SSPX exists in a tenuous, irregular situation as regards the authority of the Holy See. (Most serious disagreements among Catholics and between Christian denominations ultimately come down to the question of how the authority given to the Church functions, but that's another thread...)<br /><br />The irregularity of the SSPX's situation is directly traceable to Archbishop Lefebvre's act of ordaining bishops without the approval of the Holy See. This was an act of extreme disobedience, a rejection of the legitimate authority of the Pope and the Holy See, and warranted latae sententiae excommunication. (since lifted) The SSPX's claim that this disobedience was necessitated by a "danger to the faith" that exists in the Novus Ordo mass is a further rejection of the legitimate authority of the Holy See and a thinly veiled rejection of the authority of the Second Vatican Council.<br /><br />SSPX rejects aspects of the teaching of Vatican Two (ecumenism, religious liberty, the Church, collegiality), because SSPX theologians believe these teaching cannot be reconciled with previous statements of the authoritative magisterial office of the Church. SSPX thereby claims, it seems to me, to be the true seat of the charism of infallibility and the possessor of the right to interpret the Tradition of the Church. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com