tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post8527072853111172085..comments2024-03-28T12:59:52.914-04:00Comments on southern orders: IS LIMBO REALLY NOT A DOCTRINE AND THUS REALLY IN LIMBO?????Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comBlogger27125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-91298787646746232212015-05-02T21:43:32.367-04:002015-05-02T21:43:32.367-04:00Bee
John the Baptist told the people of Judea who...Bee<br /><br />John the Baptist told the people of Judea who came to him, 'I have baptized you with water'; but one was coming who "will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.” Jesus Himself baptized others. Would Jesus not have baptized Apostles? Would He not also have baptized St Joseph and the Blessed Virgin? Which is the more untenable position? To expect that He certainly did do this? Or to claim or take the position that He did not?<br />Georgenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-69062682853641870522015-05-02T15:52:55.748-04:002015-05-02T15:52:55.748-04:00Fr Kavanaugh
Since you are not old enough to reme...Fr Kavanaugh<br /><br />Since you are not old enough to remember the pre-Conciliar Mass your catalogue of 'abuses' must be based on anecdote. Priests would have entered junior seminary at age 12/13 and while not all were highly proficient Latinists they would have had more than enough Latin for the Mass and Office. Have you any evidence that they spouted 'gibberish'? As for the omission of amice, cincture and maniple, this came about with the introduction of the 'cassock alb' and the only priests who would have worn such a garment before the 1960s would have been on the very progressive wing of the Liturgical Movement. <br /><br />Bugnini, he of 'I am the liturgical reform' may have been arrogant and even dishonest, but he was not the evil genius who singlehandedly subverted the liturgy of the Western Church. Nor is the rite which he and his cronies cobbled together the sole cause of the excessive creativity and lack of reverence which all too often accompany it.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-38533753814572376292015-05-02T13:51:46.909-04:002015-05-02T13:51:46.909-04:00What puzzles me in the whole article is the percep...What puzzles me in the whole article is the perception that an infant who dies appears before the throne of God still an infant; as a wiggly baby with no intellect. Is this not a soul? Admittedly, I have little background in theology and was not any kind of whiz at philosophy, but in my estimation, who's to say the infant does not appear before God's throne just after death as a fully mature intellect with free will, as if he had lived a normal life span? And, given that maturity, at that moment he is infused with everything he would have known about Christ and also about the world, had he lived. And also at that moment, he is given a choice: does he choose Christ, or does he reject Him as his Savior?<br />Perhaps we'd say, well, given he is standing before God at that moment, who would be so foolish as to reject Him? But we believe Lucifer and many angels chose to rebel against God after they had full knowledge of Him. So why couldn't this be the case for infants and children, and even adults who had no opportunity to know Him in life?<br /><br />And I suppose I would say, if at that moment they accept Christ, recognizing their original sinfulness and need of Him, then this "Mystical Baptism" is conferred on them. <br /><br />But this raises another question for me: were the Apostles baptized? By whom?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-70915085714031971382015-05-02T12:43:34.157-04:002015-05-02T12:43:34.157-04:00John - I don't defend terrible liturgical abus...John - I don't defend terrible liturgical abuses because they are indefensible. We all know that, so what's the point? <br /><br />When there are bad, very bad, performances of Handel's Messiah, no one starts shouting, "Oh, we must blame the composer for giving us a terrible piece of music!" <br /><br />But when some priest does something absurd and meaningless in the NO mass, you and others start shouting, "Oh, we must blame Bugnini" or whoever else is the scapegoat-of-the-day.<br /><br />No, the faults do not come from the NO mass. They come from priests who celebrate the NO mass badly.<br /><br />"This never happened in an EF mass" some will say. I say, "Baloney." Priests skipped parts, priests babbled on in gibberish instead of the required Latin, priests skipped wearing a cincture or a maniple. <br /><br />There is nothing inherently more reverent in an EF mass than in an OF mass.<br /><br />Lefebvrites are followers of Lefebvre, whether Lefebvre intended it or not. Nothing "straw" here. <br /><br />The arrangement of candles on an altar simply doesn't matter, anymore than rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic mattered after it had already hit an iceberg and was sinking.<br /><br />Do I think the Church is sinking? Not for an instant. I don't give into the Chicken Little thinking. The Church will endure because the Church is protected by the Holy Spirit. I am far, far more optimistic and hopeful than you seem to think.<br /><br />Fr. Michael J. Kavanaughnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-6069043767721316142015-05-02T10:01:14.399-04:002015-05-02T10:01:14.399-04:00It is your own misunderstanding of ecumenism and i...It is your own misunderstanding of ecumenism and interreligious relations that leaves you wondering. <br /><br />You think we stand around singing Kumbaya and holding hands and "making nice" with each other, but your understanding is wrong.<br /><br />I'd be happy to help you come to a proper understanding of either or both any time.Fr. Michael J. Kavanaughnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-63670232072626711642015-05-02T09:55:33.417-04:002015-05-02T09:55:33.417-04:00The fact remains, Fr Kavanaugh, that you are setti...The fact remains, Fr Kavanaugh, that you are setting up a straw man, in this case 'Lefebvrites'. There are of course no such thing; Archbishop Lefebvre did not set up a sect which identified itself by following him - quite the opposite in fact. <br /><br />I am prepared to cut you some slack in that since you were born in 1958 (the year of my first Communion and the year before I served Mass for the first time) your experience has been different from mine.<br /><br />What disturbs me is that although I can discern where you are coming from, (your views on the liturgy, for example, are taken almost verbatim from a progressive Jesuit whose animadversions are freely accessible on the internet) you seem unable to understand valid and opposing arguments. So Latin is simply 'not needed' and the classic Roman Rite is irrelevant since it has been overtaken by events. There's no point putting forward contrary arguments because they fall on deaf ears.<br /><br />Another thing I've noticed - when people post examples of egregious liturgical abuse you fall silent. I would not expect you to defend them, but an admission that your own paradigm of liturgical development has been at least partly responsible for this would be welcome.<br /><br />I could not help remarking that an earlier comment of yours to the effect that rearranging candles on the altar is equivalent to rearranging deckchairs on the Titanic presupposes that the barque of Peter is heading for an iceberg. If this be so, you can hardly blame Archbishop Lefebvre for it. John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-5077393613192309622015-05-02T09:00:07.087-04:002015-05-02T09:00:07.087-04:00Well then, all the more ammunition to wonder how i...Well then, all the more ammunition to wonder how in the name of God you became an ecumenist and interfaith leader in our diocese? Just wondering?Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-31907707020219631692015-05-02T08:21:50.318-04:002015-05-02T08:21:50.318-04:00Lefeb - Please note that I said Lefebvrites reject...Lefeb - Please note that I said Lefebvrites reject the development of doctrine when it concerns developments they don't like. <br /><br />Good Father - Once again you are confused about ecumenism. Ecumenism pertains to dialogue between Catholics and non-Catholic Christian religions. Lefebvrites are Catholics, though schismatic, so this is not a matter of ecumenical dialogue. Second, dialogue with Muslims is not ecumenical dialogue, but interreligious dialogue.<br /><br />Your view that ecumenism is all about holding hands while singing Kumbaya is not shared by me or by any Catholic ecumenist I know.<br /><br />You say, "I doubt he would have said such of the Muslims or Primitive Baptists." Well, let me enlighten you as to what I have said.<br /><br />At a meeting of the Effingham County Ministerial Association in late 1999, a Baptist (not Primitive, Southern) minister gave a presentation on the coming Apocalypse that was known then as Y2K. He got lots of "Amens!" from the mostly Baptist and Methodist attendees. <br /><br />At the end of his presentation I explained to him that his predictions were wrong precisely because his religious tradition misunderstood the Old Testament prophets due to their fundamentalist approach to Scripture. <br /><br />The room fell silent as the mostly approving audience took in what I had said. Afterwards, the only two non-Fundamentalists present, both Lutheran pastors, thanked me for my intervention and heartily approved of my rebuttal to the Baptist minister.<br /><br />(I regret that I did not ask the then president of the Ministerial Association, a Southern Baptist, to invite his brother Baptist back in the spring of 2000 to explain why his predictions had been so wrong. But I digress...)<br /><br />In a gathering of Catholic ecumenists and interreligious officers in St. Augustine, Florida, a local imam described the Muslim approach to "interpreting" the Qur'an. I asked what he did when contemporary science showed that the Qur'an was incorrect, or that a literal reading of the Qur'an was incorrect. The Qur'an states that a human is formed in the womb of its mother from a "clot of blood." (Sura 23:12-14) <br /><br />His angry reaction was to deny that the Qur'an was wrong and to assert that the science of embryology was incorrect.<br /><br />So, you see, your concerns about what I might say to a Baptist or a Muslim are without merit. Fr. Michael J. Kavanaughnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-29738771027295792312015-05-02T06:01:11.358-04:002015-05-02T06:01:11.358-04:00Yes, and the very unecumenical jab was from our di...Yes, and the very unecumenical jab was from our diocesan ecumenist! I doubt he would have said such of the Muslims or Primitive Baptists. Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-85559541571357309172015-05-02T05:31:52.400-04:002015-05-02T05:31:52.400-04:00Lefebvrian
Well said. It is too easy for those wh...Lefebvrian<br /><br />Well said. It is too easy for those who view development of doctrine (and liturgy, for that matter) as a rollercoaster ride which began with Vatican II to make cheap and uninformed jibes about the SSPX.John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-24754314771921534812015-05-01T20:30:59.862-04:002015-05-01T20:30:59.862-04:00I admit it, I didn't read the article (I will,...I admit it, I didn't read the article (I will, I will; give me a minute, I did skim it.) but the question burned in my mind: what, no limbo for dogs and cats and any other nice animals? Maybe they go to "Limbo as a Fringe of Heaven." That seems only fair. (I hope all of you know I'm kidding.) :-)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-87490172199023083532015-05-01T18:36:59.873-04:002015-05-01T18:36:59.873-04:00God is merciful and likewise just -that we can agr...God is merciful and likewise just -that we can agree on. Justice does not just pertain to those matters which are proscribed-to laws which we must observe and obey . It does not just pertain to punitive consequences of our wrongful actions. It does not by necessity render inevitable to a punitive conclusion a deficiency of merit and thereby exclusion to admittance to a certain state owing to a particular condition. In its essence, it's application seeks to bring everything to a proper, just, an fair resolution. Can we not allow that the Omnipotent God in His Divine Wisdom knows how to do that?Georgenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-13614602836545272852015-05-01T17:46:25.174-04:002015-05-01T17:46:25.174-04:00With regard to the idea that the "Lefebvrites...With regard to the idea that the "Lefebvrites" reject the development of doctrine, you are incorrect. <br /><br />In fact, the doctrine of the limbo of the infants is an interesting example of the development of doctrine, as the history of the doctrine indicates. <br /><br />It would be contrary to the Catholic understanding of doctrinal development for one to hold that the limbo of the infants was at one time a doctrine and is now no longer a doctrine. Either something exists or it does not. The limbo of the infants is merely a description of an objectively existent reality, which is not subject to clarification to the extent that clarification renders it "non-existent." <br /><br />Contrariwise, it is the case that the doctrine of the limbo of the infants developed organically from the Church's understanding of the doctrine of original sin and the theology of the Sacrament of Baptism, among other things.Lefebvriannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-37191089100877625882015-05-01T17:34:23.161-04:002015-05-01T17:34:23.161-04:00Since, as you say, we lost entitlement to the beat...Since, as you say, we lost entitlement to the beatific vision through original sin, how can it be said that one with original sin has that entitlement, which is your conclusion?Lefebvriannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-78184462490025212332015-05-01T17:25:32.208-04:002015-05-01T17:25:32.208-04:00Lefeb - Humans were created in the image and liken...Lefeb - Humans were created in the image and likeness of God. We were created to know Him, to love Him, to serve Him, in this world and to be happy with Him forever in Heaven.<br /><br />In our pre-fall state, we were, indeed, entitled to heaven. Not by our own merit, but by being made in God's image.<br /><br />Through sin, we lost the entitlement. As a result of the "first sin," all humans are subject to God's wrath. The life, death, and resurrection have broken the power of sin and death, restoring us to our status as adopted children of God.<br /><br />The "place" of natural happiness is insufficient for one who is made to spend eternity in heaven. Natural happiness is not the beatific vision and, apart from that, a being created to share the beatific vision is not happy. Separation from God is not a happy state in which to exist.<br /><br />One of the major errors of the Lefebvrites is the belief that doctrine does not develop. Of course, that applies only to the developed doctrines they disapprove of, not to the ones they like. <br /><br />Doctrine always has and always will develop. This is because our knowledge and understanding of God's revelation is not static, nor is it ever complete. Fr. Michael J. Kavanaughnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-4054458811911752862015-05-01T16:51:04.030-04:002015-05-01T16:51:04.030-04:00Father,
Thank you for this post!
St. Corbinia...Father, <br /><br />Thank you for this post! <br /><br />St. Corbinian's Bear Blog got into the limbo discussion last week...http://corbiniansbear.blogspot.com/2015/04/the-church-of-everybody-but-you.html#comment-form....<br /><br />your article does seem to clarify a lot. I think--not to pick on protestants-- that it is certainly the protestantizing influence of Luther-Calvin-and then Balthasar which has wanted to 'simplify' everything and flatten out both heaven and hell. and then just to eliminate hell altogether....Kneeling Catholichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16797815971446807261noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-79631831390402692132015-05-01T15:24:21.630-04:002015-05-01T15:24:21.630-04:00Fr. McD,I was only talking about one thing...Limbo...Fr. McD,I was only talking about one thing...Limbo. I said nothing about "all religious matters", "God Himself" or "justice...mercy...peace...self as God...<br /><br />Could you be plugging in...tacking on some of your own personal doubts and questions?gobshytenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-47583866848406159252015-05-01T14:33:50.560-04:002015-05-01T14:33:50.560-04:00Limbo is alive and well. We had it in my parish l...Limbo is alive and well. We had it in my parish last year during the fall festival! Rood Screenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09816036539243214384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-67663709062439901632015-05-01T13:59:15.096-04:002015-05-01T13:59:15.096-04:00All theology is speculative. St Thomas Aquinas tow...All theology is speculative. St Thomas Aquinas towards the end of his life admitted that his writings did not matter a whit. <br /><br />As Catholics we believe what is revealed by God in the Church which He founded and seek to follow her teachings in our lives. Yes, we often fall short.<br /><br />Apart from that, we worship Him in a fitting way through the liturgy which is not merely our own work, and which we see as a foretaste of the heavenly liturgy.<br /><br />All will become clear in a very short time for us mortals.<br /><br />John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-3658308856188859932015-05-01T12:22:10.319-04:002015-05-01T12:22:10.319-04:00Wow....did I say all of that?Wow....did I say all of that?gobshytenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-54487773597259622462015-05-01T11:51:17.435-04:002015-05-01T11:51:17.435-04:00The key to understanding this doctrine is to first...The key to understanding this doctrine is to first set aside the erroneous idea that man is somehow entitled to the beatific vision. If one is to uphold the doctrines on original sin, one cannot set aside lightly the doctrine of the limbo of the infants. <br /><br />Also, one should bear in mind that this doctrine actually balances God's mercy and His justice as the place of natural happiness to which the unbaptized infants descend is not one of torment. <br /><br />Jacob is correct -- this doctrine is taught and believed by those Catholics at traditional parishes with no problem. Lefebvriannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-6500654381589196822015-05-01T11:38:26.637-04:002015-05-01T11:38:26.637-04:00Gobshite, this would be true of all religious matt...Gobshite, this would be true of all religious matters and of God Himself, so religion is much to do about nothing, so let's all hold hands and sing kumbaya to the earth and the limited time we have and make the most of it, no need for justice, mercy, peace or anything else, individualism and self as god or gabshite will do. Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-53001870975387549782015-05-01T11:07:32.460-04:002015-05-01T11:07:32.460-04:00I'm no theologian, but ... [Fr. Z would cut me...I'm no theologian, but ... [Fr. Z would cut me off at this point!] the author's criticisms of CCC 1261 seem misplaced, since it is evidently looking for for a similar kind of compromise to that provided by the idea of mystical baptism.<br /><br />Both are infinitely preferable to the kind of formulation found in older catechisms (e.g. Pius X), where unbaptized children are definitively deprived of eternal salvation.Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13873507031809422203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-2827745330725725232015-05-01T11:00:52.297-04:002015-05-01T11:00:52.297-04:00Limbo is taught at my traditional parish, and beli...Limbo is taught at my traditional parish, and believed by all with no problem. It makes sense.Jacobnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-40708544731855041412015-05-01T10:56:09.896-04:002015-05-01T10:56:09.896-04:00whenever I think about this subject, I cant get pa...whenever I think about this subject, I cant get past the apparent paradox created between God's mercy and justice in this case. One the one hand, we might be inclined to beleive God's mercy would provide a means of salvation for those infants who die before baptism. On the other hand, if its the case that unbaptised babies can gain salvation through losing their whole life, then why isnt it better for them to die right away in their innocence rather than mature to an age where they are able to reject God's mercy?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com