tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post8300234363972010334..comments2024-03-28T11:36:20.629-04:00Comments on southern orders: SOME BISHOPS HAVE STRONG OPINIONS ON THE LITURGY AND THE REFORM OF THE REFORM WITH QUITE SPECIFIC RECOMMENDATIONS FOR THAT REFORMFr. Allan J. McDonaldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comBlogger27125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-43517299131750346322013-06-02T23:07:17.986-04:002013-06-02T23:07:17.986-04:00I am a woman and I was a lector for several years....I am a woman and I was a lector for several years.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-4464039645143704542012-06-20T06:42:14.872-04:002012-06-20T06:42:14.872-04:00I am the only male in my household as I reside wit...I am the only male in my household as I reside with my wife and my two daughters, ages 14 and 11. I also, by God's good grace, still have my mother. <br /><br />Maybe I need to let them say this rather than me, but if the Church put an end to female altar servers, female lay readers, and to female EMHC's, my wife, daughters, and mother would not be offended and would remain in the Church. My wife works outside the home (not her preference) and my mother worked as a school secretary and retired. My 14 year old daughter will likely become a veterinarian. None of these women (and girls) have 1960's feminist sensibilities and all are familiar with the EF form of the Mass (my mother converted back in the 1950's when that was all we had). They (and I) believe in equal pay for equal work but they (and I) do not believe that both genders are interchangeable for every vocation or occupation. Culturally, they are all Southern women who happen to be Roman Catholic as well. My mother was very excited about Bishop Schneider's article and strongly agreed with it. My wife has not read it yet but I know she would have no problem with it either as when she was a Baptist she did not approve of female preachers. Maybe these women in my immediate family are the exception?<br /><br />Do we allow our liturgical practices to be governed by a fear of the reaction of those who do have a 1960's feminist mentality and modern secular political standards of right and wrong? 'Just asking. .Joseph Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00036852763902493131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-52491142460750755262012-06-19T21:09:44.965-04:002012-06-19T21:09:44.965-04:00I hope everyone notices that all these problems we...I hope everyone notices that all these problems we discuss in the Novus Ordo Mass are fixed simply by returning to the Tridentine Mass and following the rubrics of that Mass while perhaps offering the Liturgy of the Catechumens in the vernacular...<br /><br />Really, there was no reason to not simply go from reading the left hand pages of the Missal to the right hand pages. <br /><br />Anyone who doubts there was something subversive going on in the making of the Novus Ordo Missae should stop to consider how that simple change coupled with more emphasis on liturgical catechesis would have accomplished every goal set forth in Sacrosanctum Concilium...Marchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13510317669833026685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-61802956046889254332012-06-19T20:55:28.140-04:002012-06-19T20:55:28.140-04:00Regarding female altar servers:
I find their hair ...Regarding female altar servers:<br />I find their hair distracting.<br />Even thought they usually have it pulled back neatly.<br />Sometimes I wonder if they should be required to wear a mantilla...of a set prescribed color and style...no variations.<br />Or possibly pulled back tightly like ballerinas do, so that their hair is not a distraction from the action.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-89046301048910513142012-06-19T17:53:26.904-04:002012-06-19T17:53:26.904-04:00I agree with Templar...as, generally,I do. :)I agree with Templar...as, generally,I do. :)Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-1827713561805548032012-06-19T17:18:24.847-04:002012-06-19T17:18:24.847-04:00I think I agree with the first 4 "wounds"...I think I agree with the first 4 "wounds" the Good Bishop lists, and the only quibble I have with the 5th wound is I would remove the word "woman". I don't think Laity of any gender should be in the Sanctuary with the sole exception of Altar Servers, which should be men.Templarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18204866760862707908noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-36345972781079957762012-06-19T16:57:25.909-04:002012-06-19T16:57:25.909-04:00Does it?Does it?ytcnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-7724993533369321472012-06-19T16:40:38.347-04:002012-06-19T16:40:38.347-04:00The 1962 Missal does not allow the people to join ...The 1962 Missal does not allow the people to join in the entire Pater Noster, only the "sed libera nos a malo" conclusion. <br /><br />The Pater Noster is only recited entirely by priest and congregation on one day in the entire liturgical year - Good Friday. That change was instituted in 1955. <br /><br />The 1962 Missal indicates (for every day other than Good Friday) that the Celebrant says the Pater Noster and the minister/Server replies with "sed libera nos a malo."Marchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13510317669833026685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-71187573244865300572012-06-19T16:15:17.356-04:002012-06-19T16:15:17.356-04:00The 1962 missal allows it.The 1962 missal allows it.Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-69980821429191769402012-06-19T16:08:51.294-04:002012-06-19T16:08:51.294-04:00Well, the people don't join the priest in sayi...Well, the people don't join the priest in saying the Pater Noster in the Tridentine Mass. So, that probably prevented them from feeling like they should hold hands and what not...<br /><br />When did the people start saying the Pater Noster with the priest? With the advent of the 1955 Holy Week changes - the very changes I have advocated against in these comments as the first movement of the hierarchy toward liturgical formlessness.<br /><br />Even now in some places (ahem, St. Joseph), the people erroneously join in saying the entire Pater Noster with the priest during the TLM.Marchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13510317669833026685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-38391087989330283162012-06-19T15:58:29.902-04:002012-06-19T15:58:29.902-04:00As I've said in your new thread, this was NOT ...As I've said in your new thread, this was NOT happening with the Tridentine Mass in the 1960s.<br /><br />Aside from the fact that the Elvis video is not an actual Mass, this sort of thing happened only after the Tridentine rubrics were no longer observed, and when they were not it was no longer a Tridentine Mass.Henry Edwardsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-6214151089674712262012-06-19T15:18:12.272-04:002012-06-19T15:18:12.272-04:00This is what was happening to the Tridentine Mass ...This is what was happening to the Tridentine Mass in the 1960's as captured by Elvis himself in the movie "Change of Habit"<br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-S3K6wXYpg&feature=player_embeddedFr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-89281094432642942552012-06-19T15:15:29.324-04:002012-06-19T15:15:29.324-04:00"he could say, please join hands as we sing/s..."he could say, please join hands as we sing/say the Pater Noster--it could happen!"<br /><br />Well, No, it cannot happen until seminarians are taught Latin better, given that it would be unthinkable for an extemporaneous vernacular remark be interjected into the Mass of the Ages.<br /><br />Goodness, how far ordinary form has fallen for anything ever previously accepted as acceptable liturgical practice!Henry Edwardsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-29532560608414950182012-06-19T15:13:40.635-04:002012-06-19T15:13:40.635-04:00"so at the Pater Noster, he could say, please..."so at the Pater Noster, he could say, please join hands as we sing/say the Pater Noster--it could happen!"<br /><br />...NOOOOOO!!!!<br /><br />:PWSquarednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-52488274682153562402012-06-19T15:10:10.913-04:002012-06-19T15:10:10.913-04:00"For example, a priest could impose some of t..."For example, a priest could impose some of this stuff on the EF Mass especially if he were celebrating it for a group not familiar with it, so at the Pater Noster, he could say, please join hands as we sing/say the Pater Noster--it could happen!"<br /><br />Funny thing is that--with thousands of priests celebrating the traditional Latin Mass for hundreds of years--none of these things have ever happened often enough for any of us to have ever heard of them. Wonder why not? Is it because of the inherent sanctity instilled by the rubrics of the ancient usage? Is there a message here?Henry Edwardsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-18229656107739436292012-06-19T14:43:46.286-04:002012-06-19T14:43:46.286-04:00What gives me fits is that the EMHCs in the parish...What gives me fits is that the EMHCs in the parishes I have attended are:<br />- not extraordinary, but routine<br />- sloppily dressed, in the main<br />- served in the sanctuary, which appears to me to be contrary to the rubrics<br />- convinced they have a <i>right</i> to serveBillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00858195676825602917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-58698719218226073812012-06-19T14:15:53.178-04:002012-06-19T14:15:53.178-04:00John what you describe are abuses imposed by pries...John what you describe are abuses imposed by priests or others onto the Ordinary form of the Mass, none of the gestures you describe are in the rubrics of the Ordinary Form of the Mass.<br /><br />For example, a priest could impose some of this stuff on the EF Mass especially if he were celebrating it for a group not familiar with it, so at the Pater Noster, he could say, please join hands as we sing/say the Pater Noster--it could happen!Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-40331489913416041392012-06-19T14:11:36.304-04:002012-06-19T14:11:36.304-04:00Altar boys are not installed acolytes, but we have...Altar boys are not installed acolytes, but we have them. No lay readers are not lectors and yes, I think we should not confuse the issue by calling them lectors for they are lay readers. Some people do call altar servers acolytes, but they aren't, they are servers. <br /><br />I agree that the role of the majority of the laity at Mass apart from the altar servers, ushers, choir memebers and cantors, not to mention the lay readers is very important and that even the officially installed lectors, acolytes and ordained deacons and priests are/were laity and certainly all are human beings. But it does send a message in our modern culture to not allow any women in the sanctuary for any faux ministry that isn't officially installed in the recognized ministry accorded only men.Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-65841884266549859052012-06-19T14:09:44.214-04:002012-06-19T14:09:44.214-04:00The Novus Ordo is inherently "unstable" ...The Novus Ordo is inherently "unstable" for two main reasons: 1. arbitrarily introducing meaningless extra= liturgical gestures. (Hand holding; congregation raising arms -in a Nazi salute I might add- when the priest blesses say new RCIA candidates. This gives the false impression that lay people are able to give a formal blessing. Coincidentally, it diminishes the role of the ministerial priesthood. No faux liturgical gesture will be questioned no matter who initiates it.<br />2. The musical programs in general are bad which lowers expectations in preaching, teaching and proper behaving. <br /><br />The net result is that the sacral aspects or seriousness of the NO Mass never rises above the level typical of elementary school PTA meetings.Johnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-4312308243034914102012-06-19T14:04:07.817-04:002012-06-19T14:04:07.817-04:00It is my understanding that women cannot be instit...It is my understanding that women cannot be instituted as lectors, just as they cannot be instituted as acolytes.<br /><br />My pastor is the only one I know who never refers to an un-instituted reader as a "lector", nor to an actual lector as a mere reader.<br /><br />But where on earth would the idea come from that people are "lost" to the Church if they cannot enter the sanctuary in quasi-liturgical roles?<br /><br />In all seriousness, any such idea denigrates the status of lay persons, of which I am personally very proud, and think no less worthy of dignity than that of clerics.Henry Edwardsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-24314661757772251492012-06-19T13:11:31.123-04:002012-06-19T13:11:31.123-04:00Having women lectors and even EMHC's is not in...Having women lectors and even EMHC's is not intrinsically denied them. My problem has more to do with the diocese taking more of a role in choosing and forming these ministries and placing them within the context of a broader ministry, similar to the preparation of deacons, but not as rigorous. I do think it might be time to consider vesture for readers as lay clothing presents all kinds of fads and casual attire today as well as tattoos ,piercings and the like. Modesty is certainly a major question and when women bow to the altar, and depending on the style of the dress they are wearing, well, let's just not go there. <br />Culturally, the Catholic Church is being crucified because we don't ordain women. There is a dogmatic belief there that can't be changed, but women lectors is not the same. We can't loose our women for they are the backbone of the Church.Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-19908665248416243392012-06-19T13:02:08.304-04:002012-06-19T13:02:08.304-04:00Aside from the "women question", I think...Aside from the "women question", I think the latter part of Bp. Schneider's point about lectors deserves attention:<br /><br /><i>... while entering into the choir during Holy Mass directly from the space reserved to the faithful.</i><br /><br />It's the layman getting up out of the pew in the nave and sauntering into the sanctuary for some para-liturgical function--whether as reader or as EMHC--that blurs the boundary. Better is the practice of the readers entering in the opening procession, and kneeling "in choir" at prie-dieux during the Mass. This is fairly consistent with papal Masses, where the readers do not stroll up out of the congregation, but are escorted rather formally by ministers from a special area to the ambo.<br /><br />This is also feasible for EHMCs in parishes (like mine) where the chalice is not routinely offered, so an army of EHMCs is not needed.Henrynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-6557219696083599662012-06-19T12:58:02.843-04:002012-06-19T12:58:02.843-04:00John, if the women are there, and the EMHCs are th...John, if the women are there, and the EMHCs are there, with approval of the bishop, then whether or not I approve, it will continue. <br /><br />As to lectors, if the ministry is reserved to men, how is it that I so often see women fulfilling that role?Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00858195676825602917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-81273577662236709472012-06-19T12:54:34.207-04:002012-06-19T12:54:34.207-04:00Marc, there aren't any women lectors. This min...Marc, there aren't any women lectors. This ministry is reserved to men.<br /><br />Bill, what is the appropriate attire for those who shouldn't be there in the first place? Their assumption of quasi-clerical garb would add insult to injury.<br /><br />Because Rome tolerates certain practices does not mean she recommends them (quite the opposite in fact).John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-55942037407916418332012-06-19T12:04:29.704-04:002012-06-19T12:04:29.704-04:00I would offer this on the participation of the lai...I would offer this on the participation of the laity, whether as lectors or as the dreaded EMHCs: They should, if they are going to participate in such roles, NOT appear in jeans, shorts, or other casual attire. <br /><br />I agree with John Nolan that women should not be invading the sanctuary, and am deeply opposed to the <i>ordinary</i> use of EMHCs, but given that the horse is out of the barn, it is appalling that they cannot at least dress for the occasion.Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00858195676825602917noreply@blogger.com