tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post7945580570265841295..comments2024-03-28T11:36:20.629-04:00Comments on southern orders: MY ARTICLE ON THE LITURGY PUBLISHED BY OUR DIOCESAN NEWSPAPER, THE SOUTHERN CROSS, IN ITS LATEST EDITIONFr. Allan J. McDonaldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-12029745709398062732016-04-20T03:05:10.531-04:002016-04-20T03:05:10.531-04:00The comments you posted show nothing of the sort. ...The comments you posted show nothing of the sort. They merely regurgitate an erroneous and now largely discredited view of liturgy which was fashionable half a century ago. It certainly influenced SC (which was essentially the Bugnini schema) and pervades the Novus Ordo regarding the latter's textual content and its usual manner of performance. <br /><br />It wasn't confined to the Catholic Church - the Anglicans also embraced the Zeitgeist with similar and deplorable consequences for their liturgy. At least they didn't try to suppress the Prayer Book in the way that the Catholic hierarchy attempted (unsuccessfully as it turned out) to outlaw the classic Roman Rite.John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-247644065076516312016-04-19T19:23:15.786-04:002016-04-19T19:23:15.786-04:00The comments I posted show that LSP's assertio...The comments I posted show that LSP's assertions were caricatures of the facts.<br /><br />The assertions that were made about Mr Castellan's credentials had nothing to do with LSP's error.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-63821474263066577012016-04-18T17:09:56.673-04:002016-04-18T17:09:56.673-04:00'But, none of these assertions has anything to...'But, none of these assertions has anything to do with the erroneous caricature offered by LSP regarding the purposes of liturgical reform, now do they?'<br /><br />In which case, why quote them at such length? And if one looks behind the jargon of 'inculturation', 'renewal' and 'ressourcement theology' one finds LSP's so-called caricature to be not all that wide of the mark.John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-69297431203453282512016-04-18T16:17:28.075-04:002016-04-18T16:17:28.075-04:00But, none of these assertions has anything to do w...But, none of these assertions has anything to do with the erroneous caricature offered by LSP regarding the purposes of liturgical reform, now do they?<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-27058080668503965692016-04-18T11:03:03.329-04:002016-04-18T11:03:03.329-04:00Thanks, George. I can't boast a degree in math...Thanks, George. I can't boast a degree in maths but do have one more in history than he does. This does not make me a liturgist, but Nicola Bux, Thomas Crean, Alcuin Reid, Michael Lang, Laurence Hemming, Aidan Nichols and Joseph Ratzinger most certainly are, as was the late Louis Bouyer, and they would demolish Castellano's spurious arguments in short order.<br /><br />Is the egregious Castellano one of Fr MJK's liturgical gurus? Just asking.John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-40668972362183670942016-04-17T23:36:13.625-04:002016-04-17T23:36:13.625-04:00John Nolan
I found the source of the quotes.
Comm...<br />John Nolan<br />I found the source of the quotes.<br /><br />Commentary on Sacrosanctum Concilium<br /> by Daniel J. Castellano<br /><br />Here is a link if you care to read it. <br /><br /><br><a href="http://www.arcaneknowledge.org/catholic/councils/comment21-01.htm" rel="nofollow">Sacrosanctum Concilium</a><br /><br />Daniel J. Castellano has a degree in Mathematics from MIT and an MA in history from Boston University<br />Georgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05809499822558662728noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-57604774529141795152016-04-17T19:51:19.993-04:002016-04-17T19:51:19.993-04:00Actually, the above quotations, with their arrogan...Actually, the above quotations, with their arrogant and erroneous assumptions, so typical of progressive liturgical thought in the twentieth century and thankfully no longer held by most present-day liturgical scholars, go a long way to explain why the liturgical 'reform' has been such a disaster.<br /><br />Would the anonymous poster be good enough to say from whom the quotations originate? As a general rule quotations should be attributed.John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-76284370540050863892016-04-17T08:25:36.878-04:002016-04-17T08:25:36.878-04:00LSP - No, liturgical was not "all about maki...LSP - No, liturgical was not "all about making the Mass "popular" and "of the people".<br /><br />"The key concepts of this liturgical reform program are inculturation and renewal. Inculturation means allowing existing human culture to inform the liturgy, as in fact happened when the ancient Greek and Roman rites were developed. Over time, to protect against abuses, and out of respect for ancient tradition, liturgical rites came to have an increasingly fixed form, to the point of being nearly inalterable. Meanwhile, the rest of human culture changed at an increasingly rapid rate, so that it was practically impossible for most modern Catholics to have the same appreciation of their liturgical heritage as their medieval predecessors. Art and music similarly tended to stagnate into relatively fixed baroque styles. The whole feel of Catholic liturgy was backward-looking on a cultural level, when in fact the purpose of liturgy is to point to the presence of Christ now in this age."<br /><br />And<br /><br />"One of the main principles of ressourcement theology was the recognition that religious practices must be considered in their concrete historical manifestation, not just as abstract philosophical or juridical ideals. In a purely Scholastic metaphysical analysis, the only thing essential to the Mass are the material gifts and words of Institution."<br /><br />And <br /><br />"Before the Council, there was an effective disconnect between the liturgy as practiced by the priest and as experienced by the laity in attendance. The latter were engaged in private devotions that were directed toward the Mass yet not properly part of the Mass. Only relatively recently were there bilingual missals that permitted the laity to follow in the vernacular, though even then the priest was generally inaudible, making the laity more like passive witnesses than participants. As members of the Body of Christ, the laity ought to be participating in Christ’s priestly action, which is why the missals urged the faithful to “pray the Mass.” This is not to deny an important distinction in roles between the priestly celebrant (who acts in persona Christi and effects the Sacrament) and the lay members of Christ’s Body. Yet to deny any participation whatsoever to the laity in the Church’s supreme liturgical act would be to sever Christ’s Body from Himself, if such a thing were possible. For the Church to sanctify man, it must be incarnate, and engage man through determinate external forms in order to touch souls within. Liturgical participation need not always mean speaking aloud or performing gestures; what is essential is interior disposition. Yet the externals of the liturgy help direct this interior disposition, so that the laity and the priest are truly “on the same page,” not just in the missal."<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-51172920465781928132016-04-16T22:35:25.390-04:002016-04-16T22:35:25.390-04:00Wasn't liturgical reform all about making the ...Wasn't liturgical reform all about making the Mass "popular" and "of the people"? Weird, isn't it, that fewer and fewer people seem to be drawn in by its awesomeness and I forget the exact stats -- but didn't the Catholic Church gain members in the US every year in the decades after WWII until liturgical reform?LSPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08120630078039958644noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-72518937893474606312016-04-16T17:34:01.211-04:002016-04-16T17:34:01.211-04:00Pope Francis does give an important lesson by exam...Pope Francis does give an important lesson by example to priests: you can be warm and engaging outside of Mass but then be serious and solemn when celebrating the sacred mysteries. Many priests need to re-examine their sometimes buffonish antics at Mass.TJMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-31131907022381129842016-04-16T14:46:46.968-04:002016-04-16T14:46:46.968-04:00Father, any chance your fine article could be publ...Father, any chance your fine article could be published up north here in The Georgia Bulletin? Most folks are probably not aware of the liturgical continuity between the Pope Emeritus and Pope Francis. Except for the vestments and His Holiness not chanting, there is not much difference at the Vatican Masses. And the Sistine Choir just gets better and better! They chant the Propers beautifully. It's anything but a throwback to the 70's and 80's liturgies, probably because of Msgr. G Marini who Pope Francis has kept as MC. <br /><br />MallenMallenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10732366512983894943noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-25732842320679177292016-04-16T13:09:49.360-04:002016-04-16T13:09:49.360-04:00If you'd like to try for a little more excitem...If you'd like to try for a little more excitement in your Saturday newspaper, check out the piece in the NYT about the priests who ran Georgetown University having to sell their 272 slaves to bail the school out the financial problems it was facing. Some of the good Padres worried that the southern plantation owners where the slaves were going might not allow them to keep up their Catholic religion. Some were given rosaries as they shipped out....gobnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-15863581679557041402016-04-16T11:04:46.704-04:002016-04-16T11:04:46.704-04:00Ho-hum....Ho-hum....gobnoreply@blogger.com