tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post7809471327627971175..comments2024-03-28T20:30:10.681-04:00Comments on southern orders: IS SECULAR MORALITY THE NEW MORALITY? OR IS THE PRE-VATICAN II CHURCH'S REASONS FOR MORALITY, BEING ABLE TO RECEIVE HOLY COMMUNION, MORE PLEASING TO SECULARISTS AND LESS PURITANICAL?Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comBlogger41125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-84575404278005053132014-07-20T10:40:44.136-04:002014-07-20T10:40:44.136-04:00BTW, isn't "secular morality" some k...BTW, isn't "secular morality" some kind of oxymoron.Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-28507384388374711982014-07-18T19:52:42.148-04:002014-07-18T19:52:42.148-04:00In my post above to Anonymous referring to zombies...In my post above to Anonymous referring to zombies, I ended it with "Body of Blood of Christ."<br />Of course I meant to type "Body AND Blood of Christ." Instead of just spell check, I need "grammar check"<br />or "typing check." Even better: "re-check."Georgenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-19528352260852158412014-07-18T19:33:18.247-04:002014-07-18T19:33:18.247-04:00Anonymous, A real nuclear war with modern nukes wo...Anonymous, A real nuclear war with modern nukes would be unsurvivable by the great majority of the world's population, unless everybody was nice and used low yield weapons…they would not be. But, a powerful nation such as I am describing is also a deterrent to nuclear war. The world was actually better off when the US and Russia were in the Cold War under Reagan and Gorbacev. The Russians are nominally Western and civilized and share many of our values and Christian beliefs. With two super powers like that running the show, things are more stable. Reagan and Gorby should have sat down together in some secret, smoke filled room and divided up the Middle East…just conquered them, subdued them, and taken the damned oil. We'd all be better off and gas would be cheap again.Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-79637693721626858062014-07-18T15:59:00.746-04:002014-07-18T15:59:00.746-04:00Oh Gene, you're being practical!
Well, fine. ...Oh Gene, you're being practical!<br /><br />Well, fine. If you want details as to what to do...<br /><br />Prepare for nuclear war. Seriously. What would a middle class guy need to do (obviously over several years as few of us have the disposable income right now) to prepare to ride out a nuclear war so as to mitigate most harm to kith and kin?<br /><br />It's really pretty basic stuff surprisingly.<br /><br />1) shelter, food, water, security, morale, communications, community.<br /><br />2) fall out shelter (a place to hang out for 4 weeks) including food, water, etc.<br /><br />3) security - take your pick<br />4) morale - how to keep sane and holy while in a small confined bunker for 4 weeks without internet<br />5) communications: ham radio is cheaper than ever to get into - the cheapest sets are $40. Get two hand sets and start working. Instant 'off grid' comms.<br /><br />6) community. If you were literally prepared to hunker for 4 weeks straight without resupply, you'd be better off than 98% of your neighbors, so think of immediate neighbors and friends who would join you and advise them on what to bring (or prepare accordingly).<br /><br />Get all this 'stuff' done and you're basically prepared about as much as anyone can be. Only other thing might be passports, a small ocean going yacht or friends/family agreements to relocate to far off rural farms at a moment's notice.<br /><br />All in all a nuclear war is much easier to plan for than general social depression or worse, socialist rule with a hot pogrom against Christians. if that happens no bunker will save us. If we're treated to the typical anti-Catholic repression like in China, then the only preparation is to be holy and at peace with God. He'll give you detailed instructions on the rest. <br /><br />But take this to heart - many of our Vietnamese Catholics ended up fleeing with nothing but the shirts on their backs in open boats. If that's our fate having foreign friends and family would be priceless.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-49465616291471912502014-07-18T15:16:02.460-04:002014-07-18T15:16:02.460-04:00Another way to preserve peace, leaving theology as...Another way to preserve peace, leaving theology aside and speaking practically, is to make your nation so powerful and so militarily prepared and with such a huge military presence in the world that no one would dare attack you or anyone you support. Then, all the Priests and nuns and good Catholics can pray for peace without worrying about being slaughtered by savages and tyrants. Hey, it works…<br /><br />"If a large dragon moves into the neighborhood, people will just naturally give him a wide berth." Sun TzsuGenehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-55873156141109680312014-07-18T13:22:47.558-04:002014-07-18T13:22:47.558-04:00Anonymous2, I ended my zombie comment on a dark no...Anonymous2, I ended my zombie comment on a dark note because the times are dark. Now is the time for the theological virtue of hope (which is not optimism).<br /><br />When vast numbers of our fellow countrymen lose their virtue and then their faith in God, and then their ability to reason correctly ("right reason") due to the darkening of the intellect (which chiefly is seen in a genuine inability to make basic distinctions), the end result is always some type of warfare.<br /><br />Because how can the general rule of law endure if men generally have no self-control, no virtue, no habitual discipline of mind and passions? Indeed, from the highest authorities to the lowest local government officials we are no longer shocked to hear of scandals. It's now expected that they're all corrupt and on the take somehow. Rare is the bureaucrat (who is a 'ruler' through their arbitrary regulation on the rest of us) who is fired when caught in something that would send us to jail immediately.<br /><br />War is coming - whether it be a world war or 'just' a conflict between us and someone else, or between ourselves, the fact is, this sort of darkness rarely gets driven out peacefully. It requires nothing short of dynamic holiness, saints and martyrs. People without fear for those who threaten the body but cannot touch the soul.<br /><br />In Poland the awakening did come perilously close to open war after martial law was imposed. But thanks to genuine saints and martyrs the sword was lifted and the USSR fell.<br /><br />Across Latin and South America the peoples groan and low grade conflict smolders. Africa and the Middle east are on fire. People are dying for admitting to be Catholic. Most Catholics on earth are 3rd world, poor, and second class citizens. We are the anomaly. To whom much is given, much is expected. <br /><br />So what can be done? Pray. Fast. Go to Mass as much as you can. Devotions to the Divine Mercy. Make reparations for those who live in darkness. <br /><br />Network and make as many friends as you can with as many people as you can both Catholic and non. Be light and salt and leaven for them.<br /><br />We decry what big institutions or big parishes do or fail to do. Yes, it's well and good, but we must be about our own business. Much of the struggle depends not on what Pater or Fr. McDonald do or fail to do, but on what we do.<br /><br />You or I may be one of the "10 just men" for whose sake the Lord spares the city from certain ruin.<br /><br />So Job 1 is: keep the faith.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-21684972206312484832014-07-17T23:31:45.165-04:002014-07-17T23:31:45.165-04:00And here is a brief summary of Jack’s paper from t...And here is a brief summary of Jack’s paper from the Symposium Introduction (for the whole Introduction, describing the Symposium and summarizing all the papers, see http://www2.law.mercer.edu/lawreview/getfile.cfm?file=63315.pdf):<br /><br />If Constable and Smith have taken us to the heart of all three conversations in their consideration of the use of language itself, Sammons takes us to their soul. For Sammons, all three conversations in their essence are about our identity, about “who we are,” however different the “imagined community” or “polity” of each may be. The problem with our politics is that politics, unlike religion and law, has for various reasons (including those mentioned by Garver) forgotten this elementary fact. Incivility is a symptom of this forgetting and of the resulting flight into inauthentic identities that are “false and incomplete.” The solution, then, is for us to talk with each other about political matters that are truly “serious” in that they take us to the place where, as can still happen in the case of religion and law, the conversation will point beyond itself to the “ordinary mystery and silence that surrounds us,” the “mysteriousness of our being” which “is not us, but defines us.” By engaging in such “serious” conversations (for which Sammons offers a concrete procedure) in which we trust, and listen for, what this mystery might reveal, we will recover the art of rhetoric, discover more of the truth about ourselves leading to a more authentic identity, and thus find our way to an honest and genuine civility.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Anonymous 2noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-53248566063219711752014-07-17T23:29:49.556-04:002014-07-17T23:29:49.556-04:00Father McDonald:
You ask “Without insulting anyon...Father McDonald:<br /><br />You ask “Without insulting anyone how do we challenge the secularists to better critical thinking?”<br /><br />I have a practical suggestion about this. I have been waiting for an opportunity to offer it and this seems like the time. You may recall, because I have mentioned it before on the Blog, that in 2011 the Mercer Law Review held a Symposium on “Citizenship and Civility in a Divided Democracy: Political, Religious, and Legal Concerns.”<br /><br />One of my Mercer colleagues, Jack Sammons, who is a devout Episcopalian and one of the finest human beings I know, wrote “Concluding Reflections: Recovering the Political: The Problem with Our Political Conversations.” I think it is a wonderfully thoughtful and eloquent piece that may offer a real way forward and I would like to commend it to everyone. Here is a link:<br /><br />http://www2.law.mercer.edu/lawreview/getfile.cfm?file=63303.pdf<br /><br />If Jack’s style and thought processes seem a little unfamiliar at first, my suggestion is to open up to the piece and see what happens. Here is Jack’s central prescription, which can only be fully comprehended, however, by reading the whole:<br /><br />How can we recover a politics that, at least to some measure, thinks beyond itself, which is to say . . . how do we recover a politics that thinks? How can we, that is, recover a political conversation with the humility of knowing that it too, like the religious and the legal conversations is, at least to some measure, apophatic?<br /> <br />I think we can do this, as is often the case, by doing that which we least want to do: talk more. We need to talk, face-to-face, with those we oppose; talk about political matters far more serious than what level of taxation is optimal, or how to deliver health care, or more serious than abortions, gay rights, immigration, race, or what to do about various other social inequalities. Pick the issue you care most about right now, ask why anyone, you included, should care about it at all aside from self-interest; take your most thoughtful answer to that question and ask why anyone, you included again, should care about the value(s) upon which it rests; take your most thoughtful answer to that question and ask what the words you just used to describe these value(s) mean, where they come from, and why and how they prompt your caring. Now offer this thought in as persuasive and as personal a manner as you can in a face- to-face political conversation with someone with whom you typically disagree, someone about whom you might now say you do not understand how he could hold the views he does. It sounds hopeless, I know, but please let go of this sense of hopelessness for just a few more pages before rejecting the suggestion.<br /><br />(continued)<br /><br />Anonymous 2noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-35912938223992476622014-07-17T20:18:03.152-04:002014-07-17T20:18:03.152-04:00Notice all of George's quotation marks. It...Notice all of George's quotation marks. It's the real deal.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-74871700864065457402014-07-17T20:01:43.107-04:002014-07-17T20:01:43.107-04:00Secularists?
Once, Prussian forces were on the ou...Secularists?<br /><br />Once, Prussian forces were on the outskirts of the town where the convent Bernadette was staying in was located (Nevers), preparing to capture it. A French officer having heard about Bernadette, came into the convent and asked if she had any messages from God or advice for him. She told him no. He asked her "Aren't you scared?". Bernadette replied, "The only thing that scares me is BAD CATHOLICS." (Bernadette's life was well-chronicled by those who resided in then convent with her).Georgenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-8003871949864312802014-07-17T19:57:04.062-04:002014-07-17T19:57:04.062-04:00Once, Prussian forces were on the outskirts of the...Once, Prussian forces were on the outskirts of the town where the convent was staying in was located (Nevers), preparing to capture it. A French official having heard about Bernadette, came into the convent and asked if she had any messages from God or advice for him. She told him no. He asked her "Aren't you scared?". Bernadette replied, "The only thing that scares me is BAD CATHOLICS." (Bernadette's life was well-chronicled by those who resided in then convent with her).Georgenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-45176228343850666752014-07-17T19:40:09.390-04:002014-07-17T19:40:09.390-04:00I'll go with Augustine. When you start talking...I'll go with Augustine. When you start talking about "human good contributing to fulfillment in eternal life" you are on dangerous ground.Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-49993555315110120672014-07-17T19:32:52.483-04:002014-07-17T19:32:52.483-04:00Anonymous:
" fascination with 'zombies&#...Anonymous:<br /><br />" fascination with 'zombies' - those overwhelming hordes of ravenous "other people" <br /><br />Zombies are the "walking dead This is so symbolic and emblematic of our age. So many are dead to God and right behavior. In modern cinema the zombie has a liking for human flesh. Isn't this interesting coupled with the fascination of some of the young today with "vampires" who seek human blood. We can with contrast this the desire of Catholics to consume flesh and blood, not of other humans but rather the Body of Blood of Christ.Georgenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-22938462675531408432014-07-17T19:32:05.553-04:002014-07-17T19:32:05.553-04:00Well, Father, first of all, I don't see much i...Well, Father, first of all, I don't see much insulting going on in this thread. I think most of us have provided the sort of retort that might lead to a meaningful dialogue and to critical thinking from the target secularist.<br /><br />Second, in such a dialogue, we have to demonstrate that their arguments are aimed at a straw man version of Christianity.<br /><br />The sad truth is that education these days fails to include very important aspects of history and logic. So, most conversations with secularists devolve into hyperbole pretty quickly because one or both sides runs out of their standard talking points.<br /><br />I'm sure we've all had conversations wherein a secularist provides a litany of the Church's sins through the ages in an effort to demonstrate its backwardness and anti-scientific history. One simply can't argue with such a person who has a fundamental lack of knowledge about the foundations of western civilization itself.<br /><br />I happen to think this is a job for the laity. Secularists need to see us in the world being "normal" (as in not the stereotypical crazy Evangelical legalist) but sticking to our beliefs and being willing and able to defend them with reasoned arguments.Marchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13510317669833026685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-66743819496512174652014-07-17T19:00:46.122-04:002014-07-17T19:00:46.122-04:00We can insult the secularists such as Alex but the...We can insult the secularists such as Alex but there are scores of well meaning Catholics many of them academics who would agree with him. Without insulting anyone how do we challenge the secularists to better critical thinking?Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-835724206747022242014-07-17T18:42:13.324-04:002014-07-17T18:42:13.324-04:00I'm not sure that it is accurate to say that, ...I'm not sure that it is accurate to say that, "...the reason for Catholic morality, or at least the most important reason, was to enable us to receive Holy Communion."<br /><br />In his work "The Way of the Lord Jesus Christ," Dr. Germaine Grisez offered this criticism of both old and new schools of Catholic moral theology: "But the new [moral theology] remains as legalistic as the old [moral theology]. It provides no account in Christian terms of why one should seek human fulfillment in this life, what the specifically Christian way of life is, and how living as a Christian in this life is intrinsically related to fulfillment in everlasting life."<br /><br />One of the things Grisez was attempting to do was to establish in his moral theology the connection between this life and the life to come. This does have a significant eschatological flavor.<br /><br />A little further on he makes his more explicit: "Such a treatise [on moral theology] needs to explain how human goods determine Christian moral norms. It should show why a life in accord with Christian norms is, in this fallen world, the only life which is really humanly good. Moreover, the contribution of human goods and acts to heavenly fulfillment in the Lord Jesus must be explained."<br /><br />Grisez spends a fair amount of time on the human goods we enjoy in this life, departing from Augustine's view that, "... nothing one does in this life contributes directly to human fulfillment; the only human fulfillment is in enjoyment of God in heaven." <br /><br />Living according to Catholic moral teaching offers us what was read from Isaiah this morning: "The way of the just is smooth; the path of the just you make level." When we act in justice toward ourselves and others, which is another way of saying "when we live moral lives," then we find in this life AND the next the blessing of God.Pater Ignotusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-8021875304331153372014-07-17T18:39:11.443-04:002014-07-17T18:39:11.443-04:00Gene:
It is our zeitgeist.
And for some (certain...Gene:<br />It is our zeitgeist. <br /><br />And for some (certainly for the enemies of the Church and what she stands for) it is schadenfreude.Georgenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-37916397771895580832014-07-17T18:32:46.358-04:002014-07-17T18:32:46.358-04:00Martin Mosebach:
"A surprising result of the...<br /><br />Martin Mosebach:<br /><br />"A surprising result of the reform is that while the Church of the past, which was really oriented toward the liturgy, appeared to many outside observers as being scandalously lax in moral matters, the current Church appears to contemporaries (and not only to those outside) as unbearably moralistic, unmerciful, and meanly puritanical.'<br /><br />Appeared scandalously lax in moral matters?<br /><br />60 years ago and prior, the Church<br />didn't have to concern itself with abortion and only marginally with artificial contraception which at that time was still illegal. There was no readily available (to even pre-teens) on-line pornography, There wasn't same-sex marriage or the glorification of homosexuality.<br /><br />I don't know if Mr Martin Mosebach was around back then but the historical record is readily accessible and available for anyone to read.<br /><br />As for the "current Church appearing to contemporaries (and not only to those outside) as unbearably moralistic, unmerciful, and meanly puritanical.' " <br /><br />Huh?<br /> Georgenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-18790066576091474422014-07-17T18:29:12.268-04:002014-07-17T18:29:12.268-04:00Flavius, I was an atheist until age 24 or so. I wa...Flavius, I was an atheist until age 24 or so. I was thinking your posts were also descriptive of my time in that camp!<br /><br />I agree about causes. I don't think, though, that they have to be important. I take it Candy Crush and the like are about as "good" a cause as many will ever subscribe to, sadly.Marchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13510317669833026685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-20717570729168593382014-07-17T18:24:47.673-04:002014-07-17T18:24:47.673-04:00Marc,
Did we meet at some point during my atheis...Marc, <br /><br />Did we meet at some point during my atheist years? You've described me to the letter.<br /><br />Everything you've written I can find no fault with, except that I'd add I'm not certain how long the "causes-as-alternative-to-nihilism" will last. Access to popular technology seems to be eroding any sense of responsibility to anything. Why be worried about society's problems when I can play Angry Birds or Candy Crush for 12 hours a day? Why concern myself with "others" when I can go on Twitter or Facebook?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00554830859411216515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-3661473536124220102014-07-17T17:52:47.140-04:002014-07-17T17:52:47.140-04:00Remember the Grand Inquisitor? "If there is n...Remember the Grand Inquisitor? "If there is no God, then all is permitted." We are there, people. Nihilism is the order of the day and it permeates everything from the newscasts to the vapid and insipid network TV shows. It is entering the Church. It is our zeitgeist.<br />I have said before on this blog, either Christ is who He said He was or, ultimately, there is no meaning to human existence. It is really very simple and all the convolutions and twistings of modern philosophy are laughable…in a gallows humor kind of way.<br />Marc, your post is quite correct and well-stated. Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-54742844633252550462014-07-17T17:46:49.539-04:002014-07-17T17:46:49.539-04:00A2, I'd disagree on one point (unless I'm ...A2, I'd disagree on one point (unless I'm reading incorrectly what you've written): I'm not sure even "secularists" (as the author wrote) "know" "everyone deserves dignity and respect without exception", because many secularists (including my former self) see a logical dissonance with the notion of an objective equality—especially if both parties agree that all life is the result of a design-less universe and design-less evolution.<br /><br />You are quite right, however, when you state secularists have a difficult time justifying their belief in the "dignity" humans supposedly possess. Despite believing in a "lawless" universe, rules about how special humans inherently are suddenly came into existence. (Probably around the same time gravity came about, or sometime shortly after. lol...) In fact, if pressed hardly enough, this author would likely admit his own beliefs are as "created" as the religions he supposedly disavows, because, as Marc wrote, the alternative is too uncomfortable to modern Urbanites.<br /><br />More than likely, this author is a secular humanist, which (at least to my former mode of thinking) makes him less a secularist and more of an adherent to a modern form of paganism which includes in its pantheon Progress (in both scientific and social forms), Sexuality, Material Wealth, and the "Human Spirit".Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00554830859411216515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-17042754608897448702014-07-17T17:26:10.588-04:002014-07-17T17:26:10.588-04:00Marc said: "So people have created their vari...Marc said: "So people have created their various causes and projects to fill that void."<br />I agree with your take on the current situation, especially among younger people, and in addition, I have noticed most of these "causes and projects," have a very short term (almost immediate) perspective. It is "solving a problem for right now" without considering how the solution might actually play out. Laws are being changed to accommodate the latest cause, but no real thought is given as to how those changes might impact society, let alone civilization. Secular morality is built on the shifting sands of relativism, and hardly anyone notices. Their arguments make sense only in the very short term but I wonder what kind of distopia they are creating. I dread living in the world that is being created by these "secularists".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-19126905778303536282014-07-17T17:14:33.472-04:002014-07-17T17:14:33.472-04:00Anonymous:
Thank you for another interesting post...Anonymous:<br /><br />Thank you for another interesting post.<br /><br />“It's the darkening of the intellect that St. Thomas Aquinas and Aristotle warned us happens when people give in to vice.”<br /><br />You seem to conclude on a rather dark note yourself. More optimistically and constructively, what can be done?<br /><br />Anonymous 2noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-89038420177341120262014-07-17T16:47:35.910-04:002014-07-17T16:47:35.910-04:00Regarding the “purpose” of Catholic morality and t...Regarding the “purpose” of Catholic morality and the issue of the “culture wars,” the Church may indeed have to accommodate itself to certain social “realities” such as the existence of legally recognized homosexual marriages or the non-criminalization of abortion, which means pragmatically that it can only “enforce” its moral norms against Catholics. However, this does not mean, nor should it mean, that the Church should cease speaking out in the name of what it believes to be the Truth. And the Church and Catholics should not let themselves be silenced in the public square by media bullying. At the same time, the Church and Catholics should also not act as bullies. Respectful and civil dialogue in the public square should be the goal.<br /><br />Anonymous 2noreply@blogger.com