tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post7301610497127963490..comments2024-03-28T20:30:10.681-04:00Comments on southern orders: GOOD ADVICE FOR BISHOPS, PRIESTS AND VOCATION DIRECTORS AND LAY LEADERS AND LAITY IN GENERALFr. Allan J. McDonaldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-85790193492326257182016-04-24T11:55:16.656-04:002016-04-24T11:55:16.656-04:00Anonymous, at least I have the integrity to identi...Anonymous, at least I have the integrity to identify myself, and if my alleged superiority consists of making intelligent and informed comments supported by evidence, then I accept the accolade, as long as it is understood that it is only your good self to whom I am superior. And that is no great feat.John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-42167908420356421822016-04-23T17:14:09.067-04:002016-04-23T17:14:09.067-04:00Oh, John, you are so superior, aren't you? Yo...Oh, John, you are so superior, aren't you? Your pathetic and contemptible condescension gives you away, no inference needed. Keep up the good work.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-88828392312046423642016-04-23T11:36:26.307-04:002016-04-23T11:36:26.307-04:00I don't know who this Anonymous is who keeps p...I don't know who this Anonymous is who keeps popping up and trolling others' comments, and since he refuses to identify himself I regard him as a pathetic and contemptible individual in any case, even were it not for the fact that his puerile and superficial contributions amply justify such an inference.John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-23371023480446789142016-04-22T22:23:50.786-04:002016-04-22T22:23:50.786-04:00Most summers at the Latin Mass Community where I s...Most summers at the Latin Mass Community where I sing in the schola, a couple of seminarians from the FSSP Nebraska seminary come teach a class. They have in general seemed delightful chaps and not at all head cases. Listening to them, one does get a weird but not unpleasant time warp sensation that nothing has happened in the Church since 1962. Makes me wish I had lived back in those halcyon days before everything went south...Charles Gnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-19650162592054743452016-04-22T21:33:28.475-04:002016-04-22T21:33:28.475-04:00I would agree that it would not make sense for som...I would agree that it would not make sense for someone who refuses to use the Ordinary Form to be at a diocesan seminary since he obviously would not be able to perform the job of a diocesan priest while the Ordinary Form is the norm. I wouldn't call it a psychological defect however and might invite such person to look at FSSP or ICKSP. However, male only servers and ad orientem are perfectly legitimate options, and traditional to boot (tradition is not a bad word!), and it is not a psychological problem for a priest to prefer such in his own masses. I would think refusal to participate in any mass with female servers or versus populum might be a problem, however, since these are, for better or for worse, legal.Charles Gnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-21774472514198005532016-04-22T20:07:34.817-04:002016-04-22T20:07:34.817-04:00That females are not allowed to act as altar serve...That females are not allowed to act as altar servers in the EF is reason number 987,654,321 to avoid it at all costs.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-71228611184896507022016-04-22T18:45:22.342-04:002016-04-22T18:45:22.342-04:00Can we make this clear - the practice of having wo...Can we make this clear - the practice of having women or girls as altar servers is of very recent origin, it is permitted but by no means encouraged, is not allowed in the Extraordinary Form, and the legislation explicitly states that no priest is obliged to have a female server at his Mass, even if the bishop allows the practice in his diocese.<br /><br />It is in no way analogous to a diocesan priest refusing to say the Novus Ordo, or indeed insisting on using only Latin, whatever his personal liturgical views might be.<br /><br />So far no English bishops have banned female servers, but there are many parishes which choose not to use them.<br /><br /> <br /><br /><br /> John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-65311361384707170112016-04-22T18:18:23.831-04:002016-04-22T18:18:23.831-04:00Charles,
Since it happened so recently, we certai...Charles,<br /><br />Since it happened so recently, we certainly can't rule that out. But it must be admitted that the well-meaning perpetrators back then did not themselves experience that kind of system when they were formed, and so might not have known what they were doing. It could be the case with Pope Francis that he truly doesn't understand the implications of what he's proposing, because he receive formation at the tail end of a more stable era. Rood Screenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09816036539243214384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-39222404016897433032016-04-22T18:07:39.401-04:002016-04-22T18:07:39.401-04:00Charles G said...
"Looks like we really ...<br />Charles G said...<br /><br /> "Looks like we really are going back to the bad old days of the 70s when anyone who actually believes in the teachings of the Church are drummed out of the seminaries. "<br /><br />I hope not. If candidates who came out of what would be characterized as a traditional Catholic upbringing were "drummed out of the seminaries", it would have a terrible effect on the Church. There are not enough candidates for the priesthood as it is. <br />Georgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05809499822558662728noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-53415584016508065032016-04-22T03:12:06.911-04:002016-04-22T03:12:06.911-04:00Looks like we really are going back to the bad old...Looks like we really are going back to the bad old days of the 70s, when anyone who actually believes in the teachings of the Church are drummed out of the seminaries. Charles Gnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-3461735042605160112016-04-21T17:16:24.569-04:002016-04-21T17:16:24.569-04:00Father McDonald said..."In terms of liturgica...Father McDonald said..."In terms of liturgical rigidity, I would be most concerned if a newly ordained priest or even a seminarian refused to participate in the Ordinary Form of the Mass or insisted that at his Masses only boys serve and that it be ad orientem."<br /><br />What is interesting to me is that when Father McDonald was a boy, and when I was a boy, a man who advocated anything akin to the Novus Ordo and the novel practices that Father mentioned above would have been deemed unfit for the priesthood. But today, such a man is deemed fit for the priesthood. <br /><br />Conversely, the holy priests prior to the Novus Ordo Era who held fast to Holy Liturgical Tradition and who would have rejected the above are labeled today as "rigid" and unfit for the priesthood. What a flip-flop the Church has experienced during the past 50 or so years.<br /><br />By the way, the Apostolic See has declared that ad orientem liturgical prayer is of such "profound value" to Holy Mother Church that Eastern Catholics should resist said novelty. Rome has exhorted Eastern Catholics to "safeguard" ad orientem liturgical prayer.<br /><br />Congregation for the Eastern Churches <br /><br />http://www.ewtn.com/library/curia/eastinst.htm<br /><br />107. Prayer facing the east<br /><br />"Such practice, threatened in numerous Eastern Catholic Churches by a new and recent Latin influence, is thus of profound value and should be safeguarded as truly coherent with the Eastern liturgical spirituality."<br /><br />Pax.<br /><br />Mark ThomasMark Thomasnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-27340287581680809072016-04-21T10:19:50.370-04:002016-04-21T10:19:50.370-04:00In terms of liturgical rigidity, I would be most c...In terms of liturgical rigidity, I would be most concerned if a newly ordained priest or even a seminarian refused to participate in the Ordinary Form of the Mass or insisted that at his Masses only boys serve and that it be ad orientem. What this tells me is that he is absolutely clueless about the Church as she is today and thinking he can construct a liturgy and Church to his liking regardless of the people he is called to serve.<br /><br />The flip side of this is a priest who refuses to celebrate Mass by saying the black and doing the red, who is constantly a showman with complete disregard for the Church's liturgy and insulting to those who prefer the EF Mass or an OF Mass ad orientem. <br /><br />The key here is a fundamentalism that places one's personal like and wishes above those he is called to serve. Basically it is narcissism. <br /><br />Priests who can't identify with the laity's place in life with its experiences and rules simply from a rigid doctrinal and moral construct is going to cause great harm in a parish.<br /><br />Priests who have no moral or doctrinal foundation and are like a blow reed in the wind and do help people to grow and mature is going to cause great harm in a parish. Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-718878115396449692016-04-21T09:38:54.323-04:002016-04-21T09:38:54.323-04:00I think we laity need to take at least 5 seconds t...I think we laity need to take at least 5 seconds to contemplate the emotional rollercoaster a typical parish priest must face as part of his NORMAL day: consoling some spouse whose husband left for the secretary at work...then immediately meeting a young engaged couple full of dreams about marital bliss...then counseling some suicidal young man....then attending interminable meetings with laity with a hundred complaints...then listening for the 50th time some joke or story told by an elderly curmudgeon who one can't afford to get on the wrong side of. Then called to the scene of a tragic accident where a child has died. And then back to the rectory to prepare a homily.<br /><br />If any of us experienced just one of these scenarios we'd be an emotional wreck. But he's got to keep it all together, in perspective, and not let it rattle him to the core. <br /><br />Thus I can appreciate why some men might not be priest material even if they're pious and sober young men who "like" religious things. Some of the most dynamic priests I've ever met where guys who had lots of options in life but felt a call to the priesthood. Conversely I've known a few sad priests who really couldn't do much of anything if they hadn't been priests and it shows. <br /><br />We need quality first and foremost. But we laity also need to support our priests. Take them to dinner or give them homecooked meals. Give them coupons or a means to relax on their days off. Pray for them and provide them a safe space to blow off steam.... it can't be an easy life to be a lone pastor of a large church with the next priest 40 miles away....<br /><br />Jusadbellumnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-3398523345812103082016-04-21T09:26:48.399-04:002016-04-21T09:26:48.399-04:00As vocation director I have rejected applicants of...As vocation director I have rejected applicants of both persuasions, ultra conservative and ultra liberal, not so much because of their theological positions which could be refined, but rather a rigidity and a sort of gnosticism that they had an inside track that no one else had, especially people in Church authority. Some were so convinced that they had a vocation, that they didn't understand that priesthood isn't a right or a do-it-yourself Sacrament, the discernment of the Church is a major criteria as is the call of the bishop in concretizing the Call of God. <br /><br />Psychological rigidity or scrupulosity is usually associated with conservatism, but its mirror image and of the same pathology is unscrupulosity or being so lax that there are no standards followed. Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-1939166342161922212016-04-21T07:45:12.091-04:002016-04-21T07:45:12.091-04:00Those applicants with mental deficiencies, such as...Those applicants with mental deficiencies, such as homosexuality or effeminacy, should certainly not be admitted. But what seminaries did in the Seventies and Eighties was eliminate theologically and liturgically conservative applicants by labeling them "psychologically unfit". Is the present goal to revive that procedure? Rood Screenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09816036539243214384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-87350379152387812942016-04-21T07:35:56.920-04:002016-04-21T07:35:56.920-04:00This smacks of the political Left's assertions...This smacks of the political Left's assertions, in the U.S. of the mid-20th century, that conservatism is a form of mental illness.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-66184228521365928242016-04-21T06:41:11.841-04:002016-04-21T06:41:11.841-04:00I wonder if there's a zoo or something where I...I wonder if there's a zoo or something where I can see all these rigid fundamentalist priests that Francis keeps going on about. Perhaps a modern-day Jane Goodall could live among them in the wild, learn to communicate in primitive Latin hand signals, and write a book about them. <br /><br />The only "fundamentalism" or "rigorism" that I see on a regular basis is from our lay "ministers". The choir director has a Rain Man need to play at least one Marty Haugan and one Bernadette Farrell song every Mass. With never a word of complaint from the priest about the banal songs and clapping afterwards. In fact, I don't know why the choir doesn't sing "Home on the Range" because, truly, in our parish "never is heard a discouraging word", unless you're a music lover or if you want to hear a sermon with more detail than "just be nice". <br /><br />Really. Francis needs to get out of his ivory tower and get the smell of his sheep. He's insane if he thinks this is the biggest problem in the Church today. Or he's so far to the progressive side that anyone more conservative than James Martin frightens him.GenXBenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15298459502431357489noreply@blogger.com