tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post7214373773638396149..comments2024-03-28T20:30:10.681-04:00Comments on southern orders: BOMBSHELL????????? IS THIS A NEW PROTESTANT MARTIN LUTHER TYPE INITIATIVE LEADING TO A NEW BUT NEO PROTESTANT REFORMATION AND A NEW NEO COUNCIL OF TRENT COUNTER REFORMATION?Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comBlogger42125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-74151547433553080992017-09-27T14:46:29.715-04:002017-09-27T14:46:29.715-04:00John -
Thank you for the correction. You truly ...John - <br /><br />Thank you for the correction. You truly are our resident historian. <br /><br />I also never thought the last paragraph of your earlier comment was directed at me but, thank you for confirming. ByzRushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11543580976814745615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-54056925655932008082017-09-27T10:01:55.185-04:002017-09-27T10:01:55.185-04:00TJM
I don't think we want two popes in succes...TJM<br /><br />I don't think we want two popes in succession abdicating. Actually there is more precedent for deposition than abdication in papal history.<br /><br />However, the likelihood as that we shall have to endure this papacy until its natural end. But before we say 'quem Deus acceleret' bear in mind that his successor could be even worse. The cardinals are likely to be trawling Asia and Africa and it will be Tagle rather than Ranjith, or Turkson rather than Sarah.John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-49958322062324561832017-09-27T04:20:09.487-04:002017-09-27T04:20:09.487-04:00NB. The last papagraph is not directed at ByzRC.NB. The last papagraph is not directed at ByzRC.John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-54522949728512000662017-09-26T22:33:03.457-04:002017-09-26T22:33:03.457-04:00John Nolan,
Pope Francis was trained as a priest ...John Nolan,<br /><br />Pope Francis was trained as a priest in the worst possible time - he is also a product of Peronist Argentina. His shocking endorsement of political issues like Global Warming and Open Borders and yucking it up with Abortion King, Barack Obama, who as a state senator in Illinois voted down legislation to require healthcare providers to treat a baby that survived an abortion, and yucking it up with the Castro's who have killed priests and suppressed the Catholic Faith in Cuba, is beyond the pale. He is totally unworthy of his office and the College of Cardinals should be working to get him to step down if they wish to preserve the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Faith. <br /><br />TJMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-75162912184855957562017-09-26T16:49:53.541-04:002017-09-26T16:49:53.541-04:00Byz RC
The pope is not an absolute monarch. The F...Byz RC<br /><br />The pope is not an absolute monarch. The First Vatican Council made that abundantly clear. I would suggest our Orthodox brothers look at the history of the Eastern Church with its tendency to Caesaro-papalism. At the time of the Iconoclastic controversy it was the Western Church, led by the papacy, which stood out for orthodoxy.<br /><br />Pope Francis cannot change doctrine on a whim. His faults are that he talks too much and in an imprecise manner, refuses to fulfill his primary role of 'confirming the brethren', and has so far done nothing, in word or deed, to prevent the spread of heretical opinions - worse, some of his accredited statements would appear to encourage such interpretations. His view on tradition, that it is something we work towards through discussion, is truly bizarre, even by Jesuit standards.<br /><br />For these and other reasons I have no confidence in him and believe he is utterly unfit for the office he holds. Here's something for Mark Thomas. The tenth century Pope John XII was elected at the age of 18 and died aged 27 of a stroke brought on by sexual excess in the bed of a married woman. He was cruel and capricious, and eventually deposed. But no-one, at the time or since, has ever accused him of allowing heresy to flourish.<br /><br />By all means pour scorn on Francis's critics; insist they are of little importance, and even lie about them (vide supra), but do not bury your head in the sand and dismiss their arguments. <br /><br /> John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-24039354547364170282017-09-26T11:00:57.420-04:002017-09-26T11:00:57.420-04:00TJM
I don't object to ad hominem attacks per ...TJM<br /><br />I don't object to ad hominem attacks per se. I was the one who referred to James as 'contemptible' in that instead of addressing the substance of the document he chose to malign the signatories as 'a motley bunch of self-publicists and schismatics'.<br /><br />Even were this remotely true, which it isn't, and which therefore brands the said James as a liar, it is reminiscent of an anti-intellectual attitude prevalent in higher education in the period 1968-1974 which effectively said 'We have identified this man as being right-wing and so have no interest in listening to his arguments; he has no right to free speech.'<br /><br />Oxford was not immune. Durham at that time was an oasis of sanity and tolerance.<br /><br />The same thing is rearing its ugly head again - this time anyone who is perceived to be unsympathetic to the noisily advanced agenda of the LGBTQWERTY camp (pun intended) is to be 'no-platformed'. O the intolerance of youth! John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-66913494077782838972017-09-25T16:23:28.128-04:002017-09-25T16:23:28.128-04:00Joe Potillor -
I agree with your assessment. I ...Joe Potillor - <br /><br />I agree with your assessment. I believe that, among other things, our Orthodox brothers and sisters would require an examination of the papacy, its scope, appropriate limitations and overreach of authority before ever considering reunification. While I don't personally believe reunification will ever happen (and, it would seem, neither do they), this assessment would likely highlight the drift that has occurred since the early church. <br /><br />As you suggested, papal focus is currently upon that which is of interest to the Pope. As an absolute monarch, he is empowered to act in this way. The danger here is that occupants of the office can pull the church one way or, the other based upon personal agenda. <br /><br />ByzRushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11543580976814745615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-74966721654990959412017-09-25T12:50:32.637-04:002017-09-25T12:50:32.637-04:00Invalidly elected--------huh? How was it invalid? ...Invalidly elected--------huh? How was it invalid? Of course it would be nice to know who the candidates were and what was discussed, but as usual laity are kept out of the loop on that---even after it has happened.<br /><br />Maybe some Catholics will take another look at the Eastern Orthodox Church, which never had a Reformation to deal with........Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-55856618544474981502017-09-25T10:10:28.456-04:002017-09-25T10:10:28.456-04:00Mark Thomas,
Even the College of Cardinals makes ...Mark Thomas,<br /><br />Even the College of Cardinals makes mistakes. Does Rodrigo Borgia ring a bell?TJMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-80988681899700012612017-09-25T10:02:20.418-04:002017-09-25T10:02:20.418-04:00As I understand it, the “filial correction” does n...As I understand it, the “filial correction” does not assume that Amoris Laetitia contains objectively heretical assertions. It does not contest the Church, the Papacy, or the Magisterium; it is rather an attempt and defend uphold them.<br /><br />What it does address is the undeniable fact that Church officials in various countries have advanced heretical interpretations that they claim are implied by Amoris Laetitia, thereby misleading the faithful.<br /><br />The signers of the “correction” simply ask the Pope to defend the pristine teachings of Holy Mother Church and its Magisterium by refuting these heretical and therefore presumably erroneous interpretations of AL. The defense of the Faith—and the protection of the faithful from error—is, after all, the primary responsibility of the Office of Peter.<br /><br />Perhaps those attacking the signatories of this “correction” erroneously assume that Amoris Laetitia is itself part of this Magisterium, a part of the official teaching of the Church. It is not. Fr. Hunwicke, one of the signers, points to the pope’s own disclaimer of AL’s magisterial status in his post today:<br /><br />http://liturgicalnotes.blogspot.com/2017/09/the-filial-correction-some-personal.html<br />Henryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12780755069760197497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-24639569443898550592017-09-25T09:20:54.883-04:002017-09-25T09:20:54.883-04:00Anonymous said..."But a man who is invalidly ...Anonymous said..."But a man who is invalidly "elected" pope is not preserved from error. There are real, serious questions as to the validity of the election of Francis."<br /><br />There are? Is the Holy Catholic Church aware of that? Hmmm...somebody had best inform the True Church about that as She elected Cardinal Bergoglio as Her Pope. <br /><br />Pax.<br /><br />Mark ThomasMark Thomasnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-62851914427882917592017-09-25T09:16:54.510-04:002017-09-25T09:16:54.510-04:00Anonymous said..."Mark Thomas wrote "Not...Anonymous said..."Mark Thomas wrote "Note to the Filial Correction Club: "The Catholic Religion has always been preserved immaculate in the Apostolic See."<br />AL explicitly states that some people just can't follow the commandments. That is a heresy that was defin d as such by Trent."<br /><br />"True. The Catholic Church cannot error. But a man who is invalidly "elected" pope is not preserved from error."<br /><br />-- The Catholic Church proclaims daily that Pope Francis is Her Pope.<br /><br />-- Each Catholic diocese on earth has accepted and promoted Amoris Laetitia as official Catholic teaching.<br /><br />Therefore, the supposed "heresy" taught by Amoris Laetitia goes far beyond His Holiness Pope Francis. As one diocese after another on earth has accepted and implemented Amoris Laetitia, the Church throughout the world teaches heresy (supposedly).<br /><br />One Cardinal and bishop after another, via their acceptance and promotion of Amoris Laetitia, has fallen into heresy (supposedly).<br /><br />But back to the beginning. The Church of Rome, via Amoris Laetitia, teaches heresy. Therefore, the following, which is the faith of the Holy Catholic Church, is false (supposedly):<br /><br />"The Catholic religion has been preserved ever immaculate in the Apostolic See." <br /><br />If Amoris Laetitia is heretical, then the Church of Rome is heretical...as well as each Catholic diocese on earth.<br /><br />Pax.<br /><br />Mark ThomasMark Thomasnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-30855451334842179352017-09-25T08:02:19.114-04:002017-09-25T08:02:19.114-04:00Mark Thomas wrote "Note to the Filial Correct...Mark Thomas wrote "Note to the Filial Correction Club: "The Catholic Religion has always been preserved immaculate in the Apostolic See."<br />AL explicitly states that some people just can't follow the commandments. That is a heresy that was defin d as such by Trent. <br /><br />True. The Catholic Church cannot error. But a man who is invalidly "elected" pope is not preserved from error. <br /><br />There are real, serious questions as to the validity of the election of Francis. A man may be baptized a Catholic but through his words, omissions and actions clearly shows he doesn't believe in the Catholic Faith, is not a Catholic, cannot be elected pope. Likewise it is forbidden to scheme and plot to secure the election of a pope. Cardinal Daneels and McCarrick and Cardinal Cormack Murphy-O Conor implied that they schemed to get Bergoglio elected. That is a clear violation on Pope John Paul II constitution on papal elections. <br /><br />No pope has the power to invent anything. The duty of the pope is to preserve, teach and defend the teachings of the Church. He can't suddenly change truth. Francis can put a tiara on his head, and stand on the balcony of St. Peter's and state that some people are incabable of obeying the 10 Commandments. That doesn't make it true. It would make him a heretic.<br /><br />Francis wants discussion let's discuss. Oh wait. He refuses to even meet with Cardinal Burke I forgot. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-81111673485651625952017-09-25T07:13:55.770-04:002017-09-25T07:13:55.770-04:00Bean, you wouldn't know substance if it bit yo...Bean, you wouldn't know substance if it bit you in the butt. The Church is in deep trouble, with a weak Pope and a huge number of unbelieving Priests who view the Church as nothing more than a social institution for the promotion of humanistic causes. There are no greener pastures. I sought them from within protestantism for years, then came to the Church only to find that the Church is following in protestant footsteps. I remain, hoping that the "smoke of Satan" will be cleared from the Sanctuaries. Genenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-78074782378325221662017-09-24T23:35:20.645-04:002017-09-24T23:35:20.645-04:00The Pope will just ignore this filial correction, ...The Pope will just ignore this filial correction, as he has the dubia questions. As a Modernist, he must be laughing at all this because the Modernist tactic is to create ambiguous documents, so that they can be interpreted in various ways, but always including the Modernist way. We see this in the way Amoris laetitia can be interpreted to allow unrepentant adulterers to receive Communion (the path for this had already been set after the Council by the Modernists suppressing St Paul's warning on receiving the Eucharist unworthily in the Mass readings.) The same tactic was used at the Vatican II Council. Initially a minority of well organised Modernists, they succeeded in placing enough ambiguity in the texts, particularly that on the liturgy, that they were able after the Council to completely get their way in changing Church teaching and her liturgy. Victornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-74826728879337023412017-09-24T22:54:41.532-04:002017-09-24T22:54:41.532-04:00James.
An Oxford man would not engage in ad homin...James.<br /><br />An Oxford man would not engage in ad hominem which appears to be your stock and trade. It appears you have a long ways to catch up with John Nolan's erudition. TJMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-79204001013809736982017-09-24T21:42:49.312-04:002017-09-24T21:42:49.312-04:00THe Pope, for better or for worse has placed himse...THe Pope, for better or for worse has placed himself in this position by refusing to be clear on certain things. (Yet, amazing how he finds time for issues that matter to him)....ALl of this has made me re-examine the role of the Pope....I really don't think that the role can be justified as to the role it's ballooned to today.Православный физикhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11313371333531421128noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-26273773861159152802017-09-24T17:55:57.540-04:002017-09-24T17:55:57.540-04:00James, perhaps you might give us the benefit of yo...James, perhaps you might give us the benefit of your superior Oxford education and name one of the signatories whom you can prove to be a schismatic. Better still, tell us where the document is factually inaccurate.<br /><br />On your point of information concerning Fr Hunwicke, I am happy to concede it. It wasn't your main point in any case. <br /><br />Not that anyone is accusing the Pope of heresy; I would have thought an Oxford man would be more discriminating in his comments. You don't mean the former Polytechnic, by any chance?<br /><br />John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-39997546094780548792017-09-24T17:16:16.301-04:002017-09-24T17:16:16.301-04:00John Nolan said..."I was expecting an inordin...John Nolan said..."I was expecting an inordinately lengthy rebuttal from Mark Thomas, full of non-sequiturs."<br /><br />Mister Nolan, as a lowly nobody, that is about the best that I have to offer.<br /><br />Anyway...Holy Mother Church has rebutted the 62 folks who formed the Filial Correction Club via the following:<br /><br />1. The Church of Rome promulgated Amoris Laetitia. <br /><br />2. Each Catholic diocese accepted Amoris Laetitia as official Church teaching.<br /><br />3. The Holy Catholic Church does not teach heresy.<br /><br />That is good enough for me.<br /><br />However, the Filial Correction Club declared that Amoris Laetitia is loaded with heresies. Therefore, if the Filial Correction Club is correct, then the Catholic Church teaches heresy.<br /><br />Take your pick. We can side with the Holy Catholic Church. Or we can side with the Filial Correction Club.<br /><br />Mister Nolan, I will side with the Holy Catholic Church.<br /><br />Thank you. Peace and good health to you and your family.<br /><br />Pax.<br /><br />Mark Thomas<br /><br /><br />P.S. Note to the Filial Correction Club: "The Catholic Religion has always been preserved immaculate in the Apostolic See."<br /><br />That is the faith of the Holy Catholic Church. <br /><br />Mark Thomasnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-81656163393399308282017-09-24T17:13:53.845-04:002017-09-24T17:13:53.845-04:00
Pope John XXII, in some of his sermons did convey...<br />Pope John XXII, in some of his sermons did convey that that those who died in the faith did not see the presence of God until the Last Judgment. He continued this argument for a time in sermons while he was pope, although he never taught it in official documents. He did eventually change his position. Despite holding for many years a view widely held to be heretical, John XXII is not considered a heretic because the doctrine he had contradicted had not been formally defined by either him or the Church. His successor, Benedict XII, addressed it in the encyclical Benedictus Deus, which formally defined this doctrine as part of Church teaching.<br /><br />As for the case of Pope Honorius, he was condemned by his successor not for heresy, but for negligence in allowing and not suppressing it. Georgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05809499822558662728noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-49055201818985849812017-09-24T16:49:40.564-04:002017-09-24T16:49:40.564-04:00Once again, John pops up to defend the indefensibl...Once again, John pops up to defend the indefensible. And again, his ignorance beggars belief.<br /><br />Pusey House is not, and never was, part of the University of Oxford. It's a privately funded Anglican institution whose staff are appointed by its principal, who is an Anglican clergyman. Fr Hunwicke's Senior Research Fellowship was a temporary unpaid position, with no connection to the University of Oxford. As Fr Hunwicke informs us on his own blog - if you'd bothered to check, John - this was just an honorary post he held while priest of St Thomas the Martyr's (Anglican) church.<br /><br />My point, which John ignores, is that it's pretty rum for a Catholic convert accusing the Pope of heresy to cite this temporary role as his position (even if describing it as an ex- position).<br /><br />Sorry to hear you had to rough it at Durham and KCL, John: I'm an Oxford man myself...Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13873507031809422203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-58063022270794326272017-09-24T16:49:36.552-04:002017-09-24T16:49:36.552-04:00It's my understanding that VCII proposed four ...It's my understanding that VCII proposed four principal goals for our era: to reinvigorate Catholics, to reform Catholic institutions, to bring all Christians into the Catholic Church, and to bring all men of good will into Christianity. We need a new ecumenical council to clearly clarify these four goals, or else we'll see our Holy Mother Church keep crumbling away bit by bit with secondary controversies. Rood Screenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09816036539243214384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-18084927237012791122017-09-24T16:35:24.533-04:002017-09-24T16:35:24.533-04:00"Nothing will happen. We have an apostate Chu..."Nothing will happen. We have an apostate Church."<br /><br />NO, "we" don't. Not by a long shot.<br /><br />And if you really, truly believe the Holy Spirit has left the Church, it is time for you to seek greener pastures.<br /><br />If you remain, you show yourself to be altogether without substance. <br />Altogether. Without. Substance.Beannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-87739784643415130692017-09-24T16:31:50.823-04:002017-09-24T16:31:50.823-04:00Tony V,
You miss a very important point: With Hum...Tony V,<br /><br />You miss a very important point: With Humanae Vitae it was dissenters who objected to inverterate Church teaching. With Amoris Laetitiae you have a papal pronouncement which conflicts with inveterate Church teaching. A HUGE difference. TJMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-73391791063685380212017-09-24T14:42:25.157-04:002017-09-24T14:42:25.157-04:00I don't think this statement--which I've o...I don't think this statement--which I've only begun to read--is that unique. People have corrected or attempted to correct pontiffs since the time of Peter and Paul. Sometimes they paid with their lives. In our own time, we've seen the dissent to Humanae Vitae; in the 19th century, we see the tragedy of those who dared stand up to the novelty of Pio Nono's declaration of infallibility.<br /><br />No doubt there are some cardinals and bishops who sympathise with it, but let's face it--most of those guys are career men. Don't expect courage. How many stood up against Paul VI's bizarre liturgical innovations? How many stuck around to vote 'non placet' to Pastor Aeternus? (Hint: it's the same number.) And after all, this was a 'filial' correction, not a 'fraternal' correction from Francis's brother bishops. Tony Vhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10862727279147129707noreply@blogger.com