tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post7201543240037207474..comments2024-03-28T20:30:10.681-04:00Comments on southern orders: ARE THE REPORTS OF THE DEATH OF CATHOLIC ORTHODOXY GREATLY EXAGGERATED OR JUST WISHFUL SPIN?Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comBlogger23125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-64337908947328271652015-01-22T15:59:01.767-05:002015-01-22T15:59:01.767-05:00Anon2
I admire Fr Frank Pavone who has done great...Anon2 <br />I admire Fr Frank Pavone who has done great work over many years for the Pro-Life cause through his "Priests for Life".<br />As far as what Thomas More would do if he lived today-he would not have to sacrifice his life rather than compromise his religious beliefs, but I have no doubt he would sacrifice his career rather than do so.Georgenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-25388183402825827742015-01-20T23:45:38.928-05:002015-01-20T23:45:38.928-05:00Gene (at 5:00 p.m. yesterday):
Despite the inevit...Gene (at 5:00 p.m. yesterday):<br /><br />Despite the inevitable and apparently irresistible taunting (“progressivist buddy”), the fact that Father Kavanaugh and I have quoted the same passage from “A Man for All Seasons” within a few weeks of each other just goes to prove the truth of the old adage that “great minds think alike.” =)<br /><br />Anon (at 8:42 a.m. today):<br /><br />To be sure “A Man for All Season” is a fictionalized portrayal of More, albeit one based on historical fact. However, that does not detract from whatever wisdom is contained in the quoted passage.<br /><br />And so to the question: Who, or what, is the Devil in the quoted passage?<br /><br />George (at 8:04 p.m. yesterday): <br /><br />I agree that the historical Thomas More would oppose laws permitting abortion and same sex marriage if alive today. The historical More may also have been responsible the burning of heretics. But More was a creature of his times, as we are of ours. And so the question for us is: If More were alive today, how would he oppose those things? I strongly suspect he would do it through the law and in accordance with the law and legal procedures, and would do so for the sorts of reasons given by Bolt’s More. Of course, this does not deny that sometimes civil disobedience is necessary to oppose an unjust law, although the exercise of such disobedience is subject to appropriate constraints and conditions. Father Frank Pavone, mentioned in the article in the post, sums up the matter this way:<br /><br />“Surveying these teachings briefly, we find that the Church first of all calls us to do everything we can within the law to correct injustices. That is why we must be politically active and fully utilize our democratic system to change laws that fall short of the very purpose of law.<br /><br />Secondly, when circumstances justify acting outside the law, we are never justified in committing acts of violence or otherwise violating human rights. Moreover, in judging whether circumstances for civil disobedience prevail, we have to exercise the virtue of prudence and always seek the guidance of others so that we do not rely solely on our own judgment.<br /><br />Finally, it is clear that civil disobedience is not in any way disrespect for the law, because unjust laws are not bad laws, but no laws at all. Defending human rights in peaceful ways outside "the law" is ultimately a form of defense of and respect for the law. Civil disobedience, in defense of human rights, is actually divine obedience.”<br /><br />See http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articles/when-is-it-okay-to-disobey<br />Anonymous 2noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-21551132610622679222015-01-20T21:24:05.261-05:002015-01-20T21:24:05.261-05:00Kavanaugh, I told you before, I am not passing jud...Kavanaugh, I told you before, I am not passing judgement on you, merely forming an opinion based upon your own statements. Your problem is obviously reading comprehension.Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-29710150556877001952015-01-20T20:16:15.868-05:002015-01-20T20:16:15.868-05:00Gene - This is another area of Catholic belief and...Gene - This is another area of Catholic belief and practice that you seem not to accept. (That, or you never learned it in the first place.) It is the Diocesan Bishop who is competent to judge the suitability of the priests of his diocese. <br /><br />In this regard, competence is not about what one learned in seminary, especially Protestant seminary. The Bishop's competence comes to him as a charism of his office - it is granted to him by his ordination and appointment as Bishop of the Diocese of Savannah.<br /><br />You can add 2+2, but you are not competent to pass judgment on priests who minister in this diocese, or any diocese for that matter.<br /><br />We know what you think of those bishops who do not share your peculiar views. You see them as communists, as incompetents, as "enemies of the Church." In fact, they're none of the above. But since you're operating in your own self-created parallel Catholic universe, you will continue in your errors.<br /><br />And I am sorry to hear you are having such problems with your memory. Maybe you should see a doctor. A competent one, of course.Fr. Michael J. Kavanaughnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-17908852436848335592015-01-20T16:59:37.949-05:002015-01-20T16:59:37.949-05:00Remember, Kavanaugh, it was not me that asked you ...Remember, Kavanaugh, it was not me that asked you the question…it was another blogger. You said you refused to answer because it was a "trap"…remember.<br />I am certainly in no position to "judge" your faith, but I can add 2+2. Regarding competence, I have forgotten more Biblical theology and NT Christology than you ever learned. No, my opinion of you will not change one jot or tittle until I see you when the sheep are separated from the goats...Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-48341710829226230592015-01-20T13:26:30.991-05:002015-01-20T13:26:30.991-05:00Gene - And I did not "refuse to confess"...Gene - And I did not "refuse to confess" my belief in anything.<br /><br />I said I wasn't going to allow those with no competence, including you, to judge my faith. <br /><br />And even if I did answer, it would not change your opinion of me one iota since your mind's made up. And that doesn't bother me at all.<br /><br />Fr. Michael J. Kavanaughnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-32343928035048809802015-01-20T12:29:41.824-05:002015-01-20T12:29:41.824-05:00Gene - As you and others know, I have stated that ...Gene - As you and others know, I have stated that I believe all that the Church teaches to be revealed by God.<br /><br />You, on the other hand, reject the Church's teaching on the sanctity of innocent life, you reject the fidelity and obedience due to the Vicar of Christ, you reject the authority of the Bishops to teach the faith, and you resort to vulgar and racist name calling toward African Americans.<br /><br />That's worse.Fr. Michael J. Kavanaughnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-55029078509414957582015-01-20T11:36:05.168-05:002015-01-20T11:36:05.168-05:00So, Kavanaugh, let's see, yeah…it was you who ...So, Kavanaugh, let's see, yeah…it was you who refuses to confess his belief in the Real presence and the bodily resurrection of Jesus. So, which is worse…my polemical and sometimes hyperbolic comments or your unbelief?Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-26873841679570623942015-01-20T10:03:20.266-05:002015-01-20T10:03:20.266-05:00Gene - I defend the faith against your errors all ...Gene - I defend the faith against your errors all the time.<br /><br />It is the Catholic faith that non-combatants cannot be targeted in war. You call for the carpet bombing of Mecca and Medina and other Islamic cities.<br /><br />Now, you advocate ignoring civil law because you think "people like this" should be burned at the stake. That is not the Catholic faith, so, again, I defend it against the errors you post here.<br /><br />It is the Catholic faith that the Pope is owed obedience and fidelity. You say, and I quote, "I would not follow the pope except out of curiosity."<br /><br />It is the Catholic faith that Bishops are the successors of the Apostles and the teachers of faith. You call the Bishops, collectively, communists.<br /><br />It is the Catholic faith that all people are to be treated with respect. You call the President the "HNIC", you call African-Americans a "feral minority," you refer to Black women "jukin' and jivin' down the aisle.<br /><br />Yes, I defend the faith regularly.Fr. Mi8chael J. Kavanaughnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-62413793200604386302015-01-20T08:42:22.627-05:002015-01-20T08:42:22.627-05:00You guys do know that A Man For All Seasons is fic...You guys do know that A Man For All Seasons is fictional, right?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-39050694708478585212015-01-20T08:18:15.352-05:002015-01-20T08:18:15.352-05:00Bee is correct. Neither side of the debate is eve...Bee is correct. Neither side of the debate is ever going to go away, at least not entirely.<br /><br />The conventional wisdom might suggest that during a period of progressivist ascendancy, the "conservative" (not sure I agree with that term) clergy ordained during the pontificates of John Paul II and Benedict XVI, would be making room for the a new "liberal" (again, not sure I agree, but there is a dearth of terms with which to define the papacies) clergy inspired by pope Francis.<br /><br />But the conventional wisdom conflicts with a different reality. Liberal popes and liberal church policies do not inspire vocations. They kill them. <br /><br />I suspect there will always be a progressivist or liberal undercurrent in the Church. However, I think the norm for the Church will always be orthodoxy and it will be stronger during some pontificates than others. As for this pontificate, it's still too confusing to tell.Cletus Ordonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-24204389340229316602015-01-20T06:32:47.962-05:002015-01-20T06:32:47.962-05:00Kavanaugh, it is not "violence at all costs&q...Kavanaugh, it is not "violence at all costs" (speaking of hyperbole). It is fighting for the Faith, whether physically or otherwise. I have never heard you defend the faith on this blog, only yammer some moderate progressivist sop. You could not inspire a hog to get muddy.Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-63048836417402060412015-01-19T23:16:55.410-05:002015-01-19T23:16:55.410-05:00Fr. McDonald asked: "How do you read the arti...Fr. McDonald asked: "How do you read the article below from Salon?<br /><br />What do you think? Is Catholic Orthodoxy dead, dying or regrouping? Is the article below a lie, partial truth or all true?"<br /><br />Catholic Orthodoxy is about as dead as the Progressive Movement was dead during the Pontificates of John Paul II and Benedict XVI. The media always does this. This is the kind of article that comes out when one party political party retakes the White House or Congress. They are writing about the Church as if the political pendulum has swung again. <br /><br />I usually ignore such articles. No doubt these political intrigues happen, and they do affect those of us in the pews to some degree. I don't mean to sound holier than thou, but ultimately my goal is to follow God and get to heaven. The Church teaches me how I might do that. So, to me, all else is background noise.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-33988242293871894772015-01-19T20:04:01.660-05:002015-01-19T20:04:01.660-05:00God, through the laws and structure He embedded i...God, through the laws and structure He embedded in the physical Universe, thereby brought all into existence and gave order to all things that exist. His Divine laws were put in place to bring order and harmony to the life of man, if man would only follow them. Man's laws, as imperfect as they be, nevertheless owe their existence in an imperfect way to God, and when they are not unjust, are instituted and put in place to bring order and harmony to society. Thomas Moore would oppose the laws allowing abortion and same-sex marriage every bit as much as he opposed Henry VIII as Head of the Church of England and Henry's elicit marriage to Anne Boleyn. In the end, even at the price of his very life, he deferred to God's law over man's. <br /><br /><br />Georgenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-29146339963243386262015-01-19T19:16:19.896-05:002015-01-19T19:16:19.896-05:00Gene - I'll stand with More's rational, mo...Gene - I'll stand with More's rational, moderate approach against your hyperbolic, violence-at-all costs approach any day.<br />And I'll do that because it is the Catholic approach. <br /><br />When you and others promote violence in God's name, you cross the line to join forces with the radical Islamic terrorists, the Timothy McVeighs, the Scott Roeders, and the Paul Jennings Hills.<br /><br />And you miss entirely the point of More's dressing down of his son-in-law. He wasn't interested in protecting the Devil, but in the protection the law provided him (More) and others.<br /><br />Fr. Michael J. Kavanaughnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-20205508303757487672015-01-19T18:40:31.859-05:002015-01-19T18:40:31.859-05:00Personnel is policy.
10 years from now and the LC...Personnel is policy.<br /><br />10 years from now and the LCWR ceases to exist and most of the current cardinals and archbishops and msgrs and old pastors will have retired leaving the Church in the hands of the younger clergy and religious who are JP2 and B16 Catholics.<br /><br />10 years from now in the USA, most of the people actually in the pews with kids in Catholic schools will be Hispanic or traditional Catholics who still believe in having kids.<br /><br />Jusadbellumnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-65705658597477257512015-01-19T17:00:56.223-05:002015-01-19T17:00:56.223-05:00Kavanaugh, Your progressivist buddy, Anon 2, beat ...Kavanaugh, Your progressivist buddy, Anon 2, beat you to that quote a few days ago. Besides, More was wrong. The Devil is, by definition, anti-law, a liar, and thoroughly evil. He is a Deceiver and so will always use the law to bring discord, confusion, and conflict. The very concept of applying law to the Devil is a contradiction in terms. You cannot negotiate with evil. Your Rationalism is showing.Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-28264399490738527322015-01-19T16:40:21.870-05:002015-01-19T16:40:21.870-05:00Fr. Kavanaugh,
Indeed, the path one cuts may lead...Fr. Kavanaugh,<br /><br />Indeed, the path one cuts may lead straight to Hell. Choose one's path carefully, wisely and humbly.Paulnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-45209621966490034762015-01-19T16:26:43.308-05:002015-01-19T16:26:43.308-05:00There is very good reason not to ignore the civil ...There is very good reason not to ignore the civil law.<br /><br />In "A Man for All Seasons," Thomas More had a very wise lesson for his son-in-law who advocated ignoring the law:<br /><br />ROPER: So now you'd give the Devil benefit of law!<br /><br />MORE: Yes. What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?<br /><br />ROPER: I'd cut down every law in England to do that!<br /><br />MORE: Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned round on you — where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country's planted thick with laws from coast to coast — man's laws, not God's — and if you cut them down — and you're just the man to do it — d'you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake. <br /><br />Fr. Michael J. Kavanaughnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-28920187842842506412015-01-19T16:03:40.899-05:002015-01-19T16:03:40.899-05:00So, if you believe the articles of the Creed and C...So, if you believe the articles of the Creed and Catholic doctrine you are right wing…these people are idiots. There was, and is, absolutely nothing wrong with burning people like this. It may be against civil law, but look where civil law has gotten us. Sheesh!Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-19000381323480717102015-01-19T15:59:49.617-05:002015-01-19T15:59:49.617-05:00The Truth is still the Truth no matter what Salon ...The Truth is still the Truth no matter what Salon publishes. Truth does not die.<br /><br />We know how it all ends.Paulnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-21547694653004632702015-01-19T15:58:00.674-05:002015-01-19T15:58:00.674-05:00This caught my eye: "... Kerry, who is a comm...This caught my eye: "... Kerry, who is a committed Catholic."<br /><br />I have no idea what's in John Kerry's heart, much less the state of his soul. I'd like to think his positions are the results of muddled thinking and poor catechesis, rather than political opportunism or (worse yet) being truly pro-abortion. In the end - and we'll all get to that end someday - it will be between him and the Lord.<br /><br />On the other hand, "by their fruits you shall know them" (Matt 7:16), and the fruits of Kerry, who has a 100% NARAL rating, make it hard to think of him as "a committed Catholic." Priests and bishops who give Kerry, Nancy Pelosi, etc. a pass only sow confusion among the faithful.<br /><br />As for the basic premise of the article:<br /><br />The fact that Bill Donohue and others are sometimes intemperate in what they say does not mean their core arguments are wrong or irrelevant. For instance, while I cringed at Donohue's quotes with respect to Charlie Hebdo, it's because he did not make clear the distinction between how one <i>may</i> act and how one <i>ought</i> to act. He seemed to imply that the cartoonists "had it coming," but in any decent society, while they would be mocked and shunned, they wouldn't be killed. I note that Donohue's remarks differ little from those of Pope Francis; I believe some unfortunate word choices in the heat of the moment distorted what both were saying.<br /><br />The egregious slaps at Cardinal Burke are (a) infantile, (b) pathetic, and (c) par for the course in <i>Salon</i>.Mikenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-30039190036286416992015-01-19T14:56:48.348-05:002015-01-19T14:56:48.348-05:00Only at a place like Salon.com does this even seem...Only at a place like Salon.com does this even seem plausible.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02003138243723559224noreply@blogger.com