tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post7051368817042670735..comments2024-03-28T20:30:10.681-04:00Comments on southern orders: DID YOU KNOW THAT THE CHURCH PRIOR TO VATICAN II IS THE SAME CHURCH AFTER VATICAN II? WELL, NOT EVERYONE KNOWS THAT, BUT IT IS NOW BEING MADE CLEAR!Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-60660064170219999172011-10-06T22:09:43.027-04:002011-10-06T22:09:43.027-04:00OK. It was not so bad. There are a couple of issue...OK. It was not so bad. There are a couple of issues that I am going to have to sort out for myself. For example there was a question about the translation source that was getting pretty tangled answers when it dawned on me that the hosts were not really prepared. But that just means that they need more training and education themselves. Some of it reminded me of discussions with Protestant literalists who are not aware of how the Bible came into being. Some of it is the lame guide that supports the attitude that the change is not well thought out, just change of words or only to make the mass more like Latin. For example the Gloria is portrayed as "babbling" with the litany of adoration that is added. Basically the text is bridging a mentality of the dynamic equivalence to the formal equivalence from the perspective of the former. No one had any idea what 'consubstantial' means or is all about. So we talked about the meaning but didn't delve into why the word was needed nor the relation to the manifestation of God in the Eucharist. The good news is that I think they are hungry for the meaning that is in the words and will eventually come to embrace it. <br /><br />rcgAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-25107529745096751662011-10-06T18:19:44.150-04:002011-10-06T18:19:44.150-04:00RCG, Why don't you stay and engage the whiners...RCG, Why don't you stay and engage the whiners? I know that you are more than capable of dialoguing with them in such a way as to, perhaps, influence some of them positively toward the EF and the reform of the reform. You certainly will not be intimidated by them, and you can do this without intimidating them. I could not do it, however. Whatever rudimentary diplomatic skills I once had have been erased by constantly dealing with people like you mentioned and with your modern issue priest or preacher like Ignotus. I just really want to invite 'em out back...Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-69155203546605589652011-10-06T17:07:03.677-04:002011-10-06T17:07:03.677-04:00LOL, Pin, alas I can not take credit for the "...LOL, Pin, alas I can not take credit for the "bumpersticker" as I already have a T-Shirt with that emblazoned on it, with a lovely husband and wife standing over a BBQ Grill. It has inspired some great conversations; "What's a Heretic?" asks my Methodist friend; "Uhh, that would be you!" LOL<br /><br />rcg: If you have a Latin Mass parish next door, why oh why would you suffer through that tripe? Or is "next door" a 2 hour drive?Templarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18204866760862707908noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-1957365920875400442011-10-06T15:51:34.802-04:002011-10-06T15:51:34.802-04:00Speaking of Vatican III (an error in my previous r...Speaking of Vatican III (an error in my previous response) I am going back to the Faith Talk meeting tonight to continue learning about the new translation and the mass. My hypothesis is that this may simply become an eight week complaint session about the translation. If it does I'll just drop out and figure it out on my own. Or maybe go to the Latin Mass Parish next door and see what they have. I hope after the folks have had a little while to collect themselves they will dig in and enjoy it. I'll be cheerful. 8-D<br /><br />rcgAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-22163919934734049442011-10-06T14:14:06.578-04:002011-10-06T14:14:06.578-04:00Templar, bumpersticker! Yes!!!!Templar, bumpersticker! Yes!!!!Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-58073897693836445512011-10-06T12:39:37.187-04:002011-10-06T12:39:37.187-04:00My Catholic memories from childhood are a litany o...My Catholic memories from childhood are a litany of " Vatican II changed that". I developed a deep seated defensive reflex to any reference to V2 as a result until the quoter actually proves he knows what he's about. As for our "change" from a fortress mentality: I'd rather be roasting heretics.Templarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18204866760862707908noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-25558580908462851982011-10-06T12:32:44.280-04:002011-10-06T12:32:44.280-04:00If I had been a seminarian listening to that last ...If I had been a seminarian listening to that last paragraph in the post I would have been scared witless. And happy beyond description.<br /><br />FWIW, Vatican II may yet happen, but it may be in a civil court ruling on the practise of our faith. Vigilance!<br /><br />rcgAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-69037955592904093302011-10-06T10:53:50.910-04:002011-10-06T10:53:50.910-04:00Clarification:
My "Yup" was in response...Clarification:<br /><br />My "Yup" was in response to Joseph Johnson's observations.Robert Kumpelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10567786012498143419noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-54119215350680574412011-10-06T09:00:58.002-04:002011-10-06T09:00:58.002-04:00FAther, I like this quote:
"What preceded V...FAther, I like this quote:<br /><br />"What preceded Vatican II was rigid, moldy, outdated, pagan, corrupted, and in need of great reform. After Vatican II the Church was purified of all of that except for a few diehards that wanted to keep the dusty old accretions of the pre-Vatican II Church. In 1976 the many theologians and many clergy and religious had moved away from what Vatican II actually taught and were embracing "the spirit of Vatican II" which was really the "pie in the sky" Vatican III . . ."<br /><br />I remember this being told to my parents in the 1970s and hearing it again in the 1980s and early 90s. I do remember religious talking about Vatican III, which in the 1980s they blamed John Paul II for derailing -- something Traditonalists, in deriding John Paul have forgotten, that John Paul refused to listen to their calls for a Vatican III. <br /><br />James Ignatius McAuleyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-51548663636105404072011-10-06T08:36:40.353-04:002011-10-06T08:36:40.353-04:00Quickness, the Council of Trent was a product of t...Quickness, the Council of Trent was a product of the Counter Reformation and helped to reform the Catholic Church of that period. Yes, the Church was in a siege mentality and for good reason. If the Church only had to contend with Martin Luther and his reformers, it would have been easier to address issues of legitmacy that he raised although eventually even he went a bit too far. But it was other reformers like the Calvinists and Puritans who stripped Catholic Churches of their altars, icons, statues and rid these churches of the sacraments. This really caused alarm and the fact that even earthly rulers like Henry VIII was making himself the head of the Church in England compounded all of this.<br />Vatican II acknowledged that we needed a more dialogical relationship with the Protestant communions rather than a state of war with them. Detante was needed. We also needed to be in more dialogue with the world, other religions and those who have no religion to promote the common good. But of course we have seen extremes in this since Vatican II where the dialogue has muted or undermined Catholic identity and the fact that we are the true Church with all other Churches (East) and protestant communions in more or less communion with the true Church depending on how Catholic or not they are.Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-45735420648437385602011-10-06T07:44:55.151-04:002011-10-06T07:44:55.151-04:00Yup.Yup.Robert Kumpelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10567786012498143419noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-39067545792112397732011-10-06T07:25:10.377-04:002011-10-06T07:25:10.377-04:00Father,
I have heard it said that the Church had n...Father,<br />I have heard it said that the Church had not changed since the Council of Trent. That it was in a sort of defensive mode, protecting itself from the Protestants. Therefore the mission of Vatican II was to make up for the changes that should have been over those 400 years. The result was too much all at once thereby creating much confusion. Is that a correct summation? Also did other councils create such misunderstanding in their aftermath?qwiknesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15439450727837308035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-44736995080488058272011-10-06T06:48:07.043-04:002011-10-06T06:48:07.043-04:00Father,
Even though I do not live near Maco...Father,<br /> Even though I do not live near Macon I still look at this blog every day because I consider it an important source of information in our Diocese and because it often focuses on issues (especially regarding liturgy) about which I care a lot.<br /><br /> I doubt we will see the story you have just referenced in the "Southern Cross." Considering that it is probably the only Catholic publication that most Catholics in our Diocese read, its failure to carry such stories easily explains why most Catholics would not know that the pre-Conciliar and post-Conciliar Church are the same Church.Joseph Johnsonnoreply@blogger.com