tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post698778826212608456..comments2024-03-28T20:30:10.681-04:00Comments on southern orders: WHEN THE NEW AND GLORIOUS ENGLISH TRANSLATION OF THE MASS FAILS AND HOW FACING THE PEOPLE IS A GREAT TEMPTATION FOR MANY PRIESTS TO THINK THEY ARE ACTORS ON A STAGE, ESPECIALLY THOSE OF US/THEM, WHO WOULD HAVE LIKED TO BE AN ACTOR ON SCREEN OR STAGE!Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-28789903977416656302017-08-10T07:34:42.924-04:002017-08-10T07:34:42.924-04:00'Is there concelebration in the TLM?' In p...'Is there concelebration in the TLM?' In practice, only at ordinations and episcopal consecrations. It was more common in the early Church, both East and West.<br /><br />In the West it was revived in the 1960s and the Canon was permitted to be said aloud in concelebrated Masses.<br /><br />In the Novus Ordo it's overdone (surprise, surprise). John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-16352843644370003762017-08-09T21:39:50.811-04:002017-08-09T21:39:50.811-04:00Is there concelebration in the "TLM"?Is there concelebration in the "TLM"?Beannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-27950906933659101882017-08-09T17:29:48.271-04:002017-08-09T17:29:48.271-04:00Speaking for ourselves, we had the great grace of ...Speaking for ourselves, we had the great grace of attending and assisting at a local TLM (rare as hen's teeth here in the Augusta area!) for the Feast of the Transfiguration; celebrated by a Wonderful, new committed priest at Our Lady of Peace, North Augusta. Beautiful, reverent liturgical perfection. Worship with no distractions/distractors...TBTG! Fr. McDonald, I hope one day you and this holy priest can meet and concelebrate!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-43047925912202909662017-08-09T17:16:50.299-04:002017-08-09T17:16:50.299-04:00Sorry, Henry, Grace Builds On Nature. The Human n...Sorry, Henry, Grace Builds On Nature. The Human nature, on which grace builds, of the priest remains 100% when he is acting in persona Christi. The human voice is heard, the human movements are seen, the human hands are extended over the elements at the invocation of the Holy Spirit.Fr. Michael J. Kavanaughnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-39946252240190818702017-08-09T16:30:45.310-04:002017-08-09T16:30:45.310-04:00Henry,
Fr. Kavanaugh should do his flock and the ...Henry,<br /><br />Fr. Kavanaugh should do his flock and the Church a huge favor and retire. The Age of Aquarius is so over and so is he. TJMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-27302620961301206172017-08-09T15:05:54.365-04:002017-08-09T15:05:54.365-04:00Nope. In the first case, it is the glorified Chris...Nope. In the first case, it is the glorified Christ who is speaking. The priest is simply the material instrument that gives human voice to the divine words of Christ, who (not the priest) is the actor in the Mass.Henrynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-59910338954075291562017-08-09T12:32:51.517-04:002017-08-09T12:32:51.517-04:00Henry, But in both cases, HE is speaking....Henry, But in both cases, HE is speaking....Fr. Michael J. Kavanaughnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-2534343077075684962017-08-09T10:38:02.464-04:002017-08-09T10:38:02.464-04:00For the cognitively challenged, an important disti...For the cognitively challenged, an important distinction:<br /><br />When a priest reads the prayers of the Mass, he is speaking in persona Christi, not as himself.<br /><br />When he reads the words of Belloc, he is speaking as himself, not as Belloc.<br /><br />Comprende?Henryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12780755069760197497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-76089762815298144972017-08-09T09:20:22.984-04:002017-08-09T09:20:22.984-04:00Fr. Kavanaugh, you're a parody, comedy gold.Fr. Kavanaugh, you're a parody, comedy gold.TJMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-77858927350912429912017-08-09T08:44:42.615-04:002017-08-09T08:44:42.615-04:00In my opinion, the idea of the priest as 'pres...In my opinion, the idea of the priest as 'presider' is the greatest heresy attached to the abortive liturgical reforms of the 1960s. It has given rise to untold evils and driven countless numbers away from the Mass. It's not the fault of the Novus Ordo, either (although that rite is not blameless) since it was being pushed from 1964 onwards.<br /><br />The universal language of the Western Church is of course Latin. I suppose it is conceivable that an 'emancipated' priest might tweak the Latin of the NO Mass to suit his own semantic preferences - but it is hardly likely. <br /><br />However, there is a doleful precedent. Pope Urban VIII (1623-1644) was an excellent classicist, and insisted that the Latin of the office hymns be made to conform to classical models. In this he was aided and abetted by the Jesuits. Some of these hymns were already a millennium old and were effectively re-written.<br /><br />Thankfully the monastic orders resisted the change and after Vatican II the original texts were restored (hooray for at least one aspect of liturgical reform!) Unfortunately those of us who rely on the Liber Usualis are stuck with the Urbanite revisions.John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-64064799621074794732017-08-09T08:19:46.170-04:002017-08-09T08:19:46.170-04:00Adding slashes and commas? What next? Rearrangin...Adding slashes and commas? What next? Rearranging phrases, eliminating unnecessary redundancies? Where will this end? With an Uber-Anti Pope?<br /><br />Of course a priest can preach a topical sermon. I didn't say he couldn't. "Homilies are based on the scripture readings of the mass, not my personal preferences, likes and/or dislikes." <br /><br />Of course a priest can speak on some text of the mass. "Behold the Lamb of God" and "Oh Lord I am not worthy" are both biblical texts, so...<br /><br />Martin - I am sure you choose to be appalled by many, many things. The words of the mass are mine inasmuch as I speak them. I believe the Church wants them to be heard and understood. No, I am sure that is the Church's desire inasmuch as it is expressly stated. To understand words that I speak as "mine" is not a problem - at all. If I recite one of my favorite lighthearted poems, "George Who Played With A Dangerous Toy And Suffered A Catastrophe Of Considerable Dimensions," the words that come out of my mouth are mine, authored, of course, by Hiliare Belloc. His authorship - my words. Fr. Michael J. Kavanaughnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-22039828185099353092017-08-09T07:59:35.265-04:002017-08-09T07:59:35.265-04:00Forgive the mistakes above as I typed it on my iPh...Forgive the mistakes above as I typed it on my iPhone's small screen and damn auto correct!Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-49542985444697631072017-08-09T07:57:12.206-04:002017-08-09T07:57:12.206-04:00Fr. Fox, I appreciated Henry's praise of this ...Fr. Fox, I appreciated Henry's praise of this Preface when he indicates the proper pauses with a slash or comma which I think a priest could add to the missal. I fault the editors of the missal for not doing so especially when a Latin syntax is used in this English translation of the original Latin.<br />Once again FrMjk misses the mark as you highlight in that priest pray the universal language of the Church, not their own concoction and the prayer uses sometime inadequate word that Are meant for God to hear who understands the heart of the Universal Church's prayer. This even if I don't have and English translation of a Latin Mass, I may not hear or understand every word, but God does to whom these prayers are directed.<br />To help FrMjk to understand this truthI would recommend he pray the Mass ad oriented and the canon in a low voice. Ecause facing the people has led him to a corrupt understanding of prayer in general and the Mass in particular. The direction of prayer is the direction of belief!Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-29520183778962651592017-08-09T07:39:40.000-04:002017-08-09T07:39:40.000-04:00Father Kavanaugh said:
As a presider, I want my w...Father Kavanaugh said:<br /><br /><i>As a presider, I want my words to be understood...</i><br /><br />And therein lies the problem, dear Father. The words of the Holy Mass <i>are not <b>your words</b></i>. It's not "your" Mass. It's not about you, Father.Fr Martin Foxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01375628123126091747noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-21299119885620586002017-08-09T07:36:47.168-04:002017-08-09T07:36:47.168-04:00I would not address such a matter in a homily. Hom...<i>I would not address such a matter in a homily. Homilies are based on the scripture readings of the mass, <b>not my personal preferences, likes and/or dislikes.</b></i><br /><br />Well, then, as you admit that your concern about the Transfiguration preface isn't a substantial matter, but a question of "my personal preferences, like and/or dislikes," then I find it appalling that you would consider it appropriate to introduce them into the prayer texts of the Mass.Fr Martin Foxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01375628123126091747noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-2782788664246623862017-08-09T04:44:05.907-04:002017-08-09T04:44:05.907-04:00Yes, John, the Scriptures permeate the Mass and ar...Yes, John, the Scriptures permeate the Mass and are not to be seen as only being found in the Lectionary. One can preach on the Introit, the Offertory or Communion antiphons or even on some Scriptural aspect of the Mass, such as "Behold the Lamb of God" or "O Lord, I am not worthy" all of which are Gospel oriented. And certainly to preach on the Preface of the Transfiguration, which has Gospel allusions in order to clarify it would be wholly appropriate. But even apart from that no priest or deacon is forbidden from giving a topical sermon that refers to the faith and morals of the Church found in the Catechism. <br /><br />FrMJK makes the post Vatican II's liturgists' narrow mistake about Scripture in the Mass and what is in fact actually allowed. It is a stupid mistake to say the least.Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-88206837417155964702017-08-08T21:17:46.271-04:002017-08-08T21:17:46.271-04:00Fr K
A homily 'should be an exposition of som...Fr K<br /><br />A homily 'should be an exposition of some aspect of the readings from sacred Scripture or of another text from the Ordinary or from the Proper of the Mass ...'<br /><br />Which might well include the Preface, nicht wahr?<br /><br />And spare a thought for those priests who when celebrating in English before 2011 loyally stuck to texts they knew were grossly deficient (since they were familiar with the Latin originals).John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-75064707400084429412017-08-08T20:54:54.359-04:002017-08-08T20:54:54.359-04:00TJM - Thank you for avoiding me.TJM - Thank you for avoiding me.Fr. Michael J. Kavanaughnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-62721358502349308442017-08-08T19:12:49.454-04:002017-08-08T19:12:49.454-04:00Father Kavanaugh, so you're a renegade priest,...Father Kavanaugh, so you're a renegade priest, disobedient to liturgical law, and a priest I would avoid. It's the Roman Rite, not the Kavanaugh Rite. Fortunately, your style of "ministry" is dying out. TJMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-8842011082706432652017-08-08T17:43:23.205-04:002017-08-08T17:43:23.205-04:00Martin - I also am a servant of the liturgy and no...Martin - I also am a servant of the liturgy and not its master. We have differing ideas on what constitutes those states. <br /><br />I would not address such a matter in a homily. Homilies are based on the scripture readings of the mass, not my personal preferences, likes and/or dislikes.<br /><br />I do consider making minor alterations to the texts a minor thing.<br /><br />TJM - I drive my own car so, no, I'm not an Uber anything.<br /><br />Fr. Michael J. Kavanaughnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-34933395865272625592017-08-08T16:42:03.560-04:002017-08-08T16:42:03.560-04:00Father Kavanaugh:
I view myself as a servant of t...Father Kavanaugh:<br /><br />I view myself as a servant of the liturgy, not it's master (GIRM 24), and I think obedience is called for here. After all, if I found the text of the preface so terribly troubling, I could always address it in my homily. That is to say, where an obedient option readily presents itself, I can make no good case for disobedience. And I do not consider intentionally altering the texts of the Missal a minor thing.Fr Martin Foxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01375628123126091747noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-10879008818038837592017-08-08T16:40:37.164-04:002017-08-08T16:40:37.164-04:00Father Kavanaugh,
So you ignore the GIRM and Sacr...Father Kavanaugh,<br /><br />So you ignore the GIRM and Sacrosanctum Concilium, so either you're just another renegade priest or Uber Pope. TJMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-59203489981033516962017-08-08T16:32:42.924-04:002017-08-08T16:32:42.924-04:00Henry - I think "rough" or, better, &quo...Henry - I think "rough" or, better, "awkward," accurately describes the preface in terms of American ears. Others might say "clunky."<br /><br />As a presider, I want my words to be understood, and they generally have to be understood on the fly, if you will, since most are not reading along. That preface makes comprehension especially, and unnecessarily, difficult. <br /><br />I understand that the mysteries described by them are ineffable. But I don't think that the meaning of the words and phrases prayed during the mass should, themselves, leave people wondering....Fr. Michael J. Kavanaughnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-31231974648303721272017-08-08T15:52:21.973-04:002017-08-08T15:52:21.973-04:00Actually, I think it inaccurate to call the new En...Actually, I think it inaccurate to call the new English translation of this preface "rough". It seems to me a rather smooth and elegant translation of an unusually complex Latin construction which it faithfully mirrors. Each of its four clauses seems spiritually evocative. For those who find this preface challenging, perhaps a reminder that the purpose of liturgical language is latreutic rather that didactic, to foster worship and awe rather than rational understanding of the ineffably mysterious.Henrynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-57866551987123584122017-08-08T13:38:35.793-04:002017-08-08T13:38:35.793-04:00John - I would not agree the the words (syntax, gr...John - I would not agree the the words (syntax, grammar, capitalization, etc) are matter of tradition. They're certainly not matters of Tradition. Adjusting awkwardly translated phrases is hardly an offense against tradition.<br /><br />If "permission" is needed to make such adjustments, I will take as my authorizing agent the three years of excellent education I received from my high school English teacher, Fr. Briant Halloran, OSB, and my English teachers since. Not only did Briant teach those willing the learn the mechanics of English, as our literature teacher we also learned a good deal about the beauty and grace of the language.<br /><br />Fie on redundancies! <br /><br />Fr. Michael J. Kavanaughnoreply@blogger.com