tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post6845417979950417760..comments2024-03-28T20:30:10.681-04:00Comments on southern orders: HAS HORIZONTAL WORSHIP CORRUPTED AND DIMINISHED CATHOLICISM?Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comBlogger37125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-39035370668886861522014-06-08T10:38:05.563-04:002014-06-08T10:38:05.563-04:00"God, I thank you that I am not like the rest..."God, I thank you that I am not like the rest of men...."<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-25792953402320164482014-06-07T10:54:11.707-04:002014-06-07T10:54:11.707-04:00The OF has set the stage for the Church's curr...<br />The OF has set the stage for the Church's current chaos. The windows were opened, and a lot of change was able to breeze right on in. No one is regulating. Priests are complaining, but not preaching to the parish. <br /><br />Speaking of all the chaos since V2, I can't believe how many Catholics are shocked that my family doesn't eat meat on Fridays...all year. <br /><br />Desireenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-36985386922647479072014-06-06T11:57:34.105-04:002014-06-06T11:57:34.105-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Rood Screenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09816036539243214384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-38373764033686489632014-06-06T09:41:23.760-04:002014-06-06T09:41:23.760-04:00JBS,
What a perspicuous summary of the typical st...JBS,<br /><br />What a perspicuous summary of the typical stance of spirit of Vatican II progressives! Not having any substantial ideas of their own that even they can defend, they are reduced to confining themselves to attacks on ridiculous straw man caricatures of those they'd like to oppose, but lack the substance to do so effectively.Henrynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-38259507911120889342014-06-06T09:12:39.593-04:002014-06-06T09:12:39.593-04:00JBS and Anon Friend, yes indeed so!!!!
It is so ob...JBS and Anon Friend, yes indeed so!!!!<br />It is so obvious! I should also add that JBS's comment was posted at the same time as PI's so neither saw the other before writing theirs. Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-42950355636577782372014-06-06T09:08:20.652-04:002014-06-06T09:08:20.652-04:00JBS, indeed so!
Mr. Hobbs and Pater could honestly...JBS, indeed so!<br />Mr. Hobbs and Pater could honestly be far more convincing if they followed your advice here. As it is, Anonymous 9:48 comments are far more the truth for the us PIPs (Persons In Pews).<br />Thanks.Anon friendnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-27783910344640941442014-06-06T08:10:05.885-04:002014-06-06T08:10:05.885-04:00Bill Hobbs, who apparently has nothing more to say...Bill Hobbs, who apparently has nothing more to say, would do well to study logic and rhetoric. Why do those of his persuasion fear genuine engagement with the ideas of others? Instead, they create offensive caricatures of other's, and then assault these fictions while holding their conversational noses high in the air. Pope Paul VI said dialogue should be the evangelical methodology of our modern age, but dialogue requires logic and basic conversational skills, as well as mutual commitment to engage in it respectfully. Rood Screenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09816036539243214384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-74113544956584783772014-06-06T07:50:12.432-04:002014-06-06T07:50:12.432-04:00Bill - And good final words they are. Keep it up!...Bill - And good final words they are. Keep it up! Pater Ignotusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-37412286296381815402014-06-06T06:35:32.602-04:002014-06-06T06:35:32.602-04:00The good news is that the Oratorians are going fro...The good news is that the Oratorians are going from strength to strength in England, and, it would appear, in north America also. London and Birmingham were founded in the 19th century, and Oxford in the 1990s. More recently Oratories have been founded in Manchester and York. I attend the first three fairly regularly, Oxford being the nearest. In 1973 I was just down from university, feeling somewhat depressed by what had happened to the liturgy in less than a decade. I had heard of 'Brompton Oratory' but had never visited it. On a Sunday morning in August I attended the 11 o'clock Mass and was bowled over. Latin, ad orientem at a proper high altar, deacon and subdeacon, chant, faultless ceremonial, beautiful Roman-style vestments, and to cap it all, Haydn's 'Nelson Mass'. And this was the Novus Ordo! Since that day I have regarded the Oratory as my spiritual home.<br /><br />The high standard of liturgy and music can be maintained because Oratorian communities are exceptionally stable whereas cathedral clergy come and go. Oratorians are not ashamed to be traditional and to celebrate the New Mass 'in the spirit of the Old'. If the diocesan bishop celebrates Mass he does it their way, which nowadays includes resurrected items of the older ceremonial, including deacons at the throne, pontifical dalmatic, bugia bearer and Assistant Priest. And he celebrates in Latin which is the norm for solemn services.<br /><br />I enjoyed the article on the Vienna Oratory and visited their website. Their article on Quarant'Ore actually shows the altar of the Birmingham Oratory! There was another interesting snippet. Some years ago they removed the central gates from the altar rail (presumably as lip service to the 'spirit of V2') and stored them in the attic. Last month, following a spate of vandalism in Viennese churches they retrieved and rehung the gates as an added security measure. A further reason was to make it easier for elderly communicants to kneel in the middle. Typically Oratorian - find an eminently practical reason for restoring tradition! John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-16110758469419113562014-06-06T06:11:09.644-04:002014-06-06T06:11:09.644-04:00Now, I see the Pope is encouraging all this charis...Now, I see the Pope is encouraging all this charismatic nonsense. Snakes, anyone? I guess this means more reaching for the sky at Mass, holding hands, and hugging.<br />Let's just get Jimmy Swaggart to Rome and do it right.<br />LOL!Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-11476315610656102182014-06-05T21:48:41.835-04:002014-06-05T21:48:41.835-04:00"And once Mass began, the focus was on the ac..."And once Mass began, the focus was on the actions of the Mass. No one got up to go to the bathroom or in any way distract others from prayer and contemplation. (How many people get us each week at some point of the Mass and go to the restroom as though they are in the living room or the movie house?"<br /><br />I go to Mass to pray. Growing up post-Vatican II, I had a real epiphany when I finally realized that the Holy Mass is one long sustained PRAYER. But in light of what I quoted above, it is almost impossible at Mass to maintain the focus on the ritual and prayer while people nearby (not to mention children) are acting like they are in the living room, and maybe not so interested in what's on T.V.<br />I have really struggled with this issue. I mentally complain to Our Lord about it all the time: "I am REALLY trying, Lord, to stay focused on You; to listen and engage with every prayer the priest is praying, and pray along with all my heart. but I am failing due to the lack of attention of those around me. Please forgive me, not only for my distractedness, but for my lack of charity to my neighbor."<br />And so each Sunday goes. <br />All I want to do is pray. Why can't I go to Mass and pray?<br /><br />So, "Has horizontal worship corrupted and diminished Catholocism?" Emphatically, YES!<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-17246150291533186462014-06-05T20:33:21.893-04:002014-06-05T20:33:21.893-04:00Please PLEASE...more John Nolan. Just can't g...Please PLEASE...more John Nolan. Just can't get enough John Nolan.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-44402178420122883532014-06-05T19:07:21.864-04:002014-06-05T19:07:21.864-04:00Fr. McDonald,
As I don't see engagement with ...Fr. McDonald,<br /><br />As I don't see engagement with the world as a problem, I will wear the badge of "diagnosis" with which you tag me. That being said, as anyone who knows me can attest, I am a devoted Catholic who has devoted both my personal and professional life in service of the church. But, I would engage those who misrepresent sociological data or the Gospels. I have no desire to go back to what some on this blog and others portray as the glory days of Catholicism. I do believe our best days are ahead of us...and they will be different than the past that so many longingly pine for. I am working for the Kingdom that is here but not yet, not some historical and cultural artifact. And that's my final word on the matter...<br />Bill Hobbshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10134670944420445567noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-58028359700730605302014-06-05T16:12:56.984-04:002014-06-05T16:12:56.984-04:00Another example of "the heights to which the ...Another example of "the heights to which the Ordinary Form can rise":<br /><br />http://www.ccwatershed.org/blog/2014/jun/5/what-ordinary-form-could-be-vienna-oratory/<br />Peter Kwasniewski<br /><br />"if the Oratorian model had been followed everywhere and by all, could anyone seriously maintain that the crisis in the Church and in her liturgy would look as it does today?"<br /><br />Fr. McDonald, it occurs to me that you might make a good southern orders post out of this article by Kwasniewski, which amplifies and illustrates some of the things John Nolan has been saying, and adds some food for thought about how the OF can be celebrated gloriously.Henrynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-42323513421918088082014-06-05T15:51:11.991-04:002014-06-05T15:51:11.991-04:00Pater Ignotus,
I propose no means of protecting t...Pater Ignotus,<br /><br />I propose no means of protecting the Faith, but I do accept the means provided by the Church, such as the liturgical tradition, the catechism, the code, and all else she produces by the promptings of the Holy Ghost. Rood Screenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09816036539243214384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-82227544716642861082014-06-05T15:15:34.725-04:002014-06-05T15:15:34.725-04:00Yes, and in doing so, Mr. Hobbs may well be the di...Yes, and in doing so, Mr. Hobbs may well be the diagnosis for the problem rather than the cure. Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-88260491129121828392014-06-05T15:13:37.995-04:002014-06-05T15:13:37.995-04:00JBS - I suspect Mr. Hobbs simply disagrees with th...JBS - I suspect Mr. Hobbs simply disagrees with the efforts you think are needed to protect the Faith.Pater Ignotusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-78782265927097275562014-06-05T14:41:44.748-04:002014-06-05T14:41:44.748-04:00Bill Hobbs,
You have not merely stated the obviou...Bill Hobbs,<br /><br />You have not merely stated the obvious need to spread the Faith, a demand which no one here has in any remote way denied, but have criticized efforts to protect it. You seem to being saying, repeatedly now, that trying to preserve the Faith uncorrupted by the world is somehow contrary to the Gospel. Rood Screenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09816036539243214384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-57422892034890181202014-06-05T13:24:32.375-04:002014-06-05T13:24:32.375-04:00Amen to that brother! This is good enough to be it...Amen to that brother! This is good enough to be its own post which it now is!Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-39933355554704806952014-06-05T13:21:39.947-04:002014-06-05T13:21:39.947-04:00If there's one problem since 1965 it's bee...If there's one problem since 1965 it's been a general social loss of a sense of purpose for Catholic things. <br /><br />We are creatures of our American Western culture which is informed by the Sexual revolution and the materialist presupposition in 'science' (although there's nothing scientific about presuming reality is just material).<br /><br />What is our 'daily bread' in terms of media consumption? Most is secular: movies, sitcoms, commercials, music, theater, hobbies, news, magazines, blogs, etc.<br /><br />Our general culture is dark because culture is based on or orbits whatever it is people ultimately worship as the basis of good and evil.... if you disbelieve in God then Man and man-made utopias will be worshiped as the criteria by which to judge right and wrong and all that hinders the pursuit of 'happiness' so defined will be rejected while all that promises to facilitate happiness will be promoted.<br /><br />We worship sex, individualistic pleasure (including drugs, bread and circuses), thus as a society we think of nothing of subsidizing a billion dollar sports arena but would freak out with a cathedral! We accept abortion because pregnancy and parenthood was seen as a threat to the idol of individual pleasure. Anything that calls for self-control, discipline, or struggle is avoided, fought, and now called threats to happiness. <br /><br />So when we go to Church on Sunday for a single hour of "religion" what sense does the Catholic thing have on our lives and presuppositions?<br /> <br />People are waiting to be called. They're waiting for someone to call them, personally, in the name of the Lord and put them to some useful task, some quest that will lead to total human flourishing.<br /><br />They're also waiting for someone to map out how the Catholic doctrine etc. fits into the big picture and makes sense of life, the universe and everything. <br /><br />I suspect this is why the WYDs were so beneficial - the Pope called the youth to meet him, preached to them in terms of a personal Lord who had a personal calling for their lives and then challenged them to go back to their homes with a sense of belonging to the Lord and the whole cloud of witnesses (angels, saints, Mary, etc.) to whom they had a relationship and thus identity that is more fulfilling than their relationship to fad, clique, ideology, or secular groups. <br /><br />The faith is not a program, it's a romance. It's not a matter of externals so much as the internal being made visible. <br /><br />Gut check time thanks to the Pope: do we believe Jesus is Lord and our joy can be found in Catholic discipleship.... or do we accept the secular sexual revolutionary premise that happiness is found here through material, human devices, a Babel or golden Calf of our own making?<br /><br />The externals of worship matter, but only to the degree people understand the symbolism and purpose of the ritual and rubrics. After all, prior to Vatican II the Latin rite had the Tridentine rite on all altars but it didn't seem to halt the rise of atheism, communism, socialisms, world wars, modernism, etc.<br /><br />If the rite reveals the Lord and we discover that all our joy comes only from discipleship in and with Him....then we'll be able to resist the alternative of today's culture with its very powerful enticementsAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-66171800300815612942014-06-05T13:11:07.559-04:002014-06-05T13:11:07.559-04:00John Nolan, I know all that but what you describe ...John Nolan, I know all that but what you describe is a speck in the overall way the Mass is celebrated. We need uniformity with this starting with the Cathedral liturgies on down. Then we will seen change. Right now the only ones doing what is optional are viewed as either pre-Vatican II or eccentrics or both. Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-51552156586730904842014-06-05T13:09:16.399-04:002014-06-05T13:09:16.399-04:00Of course all these cliches are nice one liners, &...Of course all these cliches are nice one liners, "don't keep the faith, spread it", "circle the wagons, etc" but what is needed today is a huddle to strategize about going away from the huddle (circled wagon) to the world and not be be evangelized by the world (as St. John uses the term) and to keep the faith by spreading the kept faith, not the faith that has been forfeited or exchanged for the secular agenda. Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-56954247846499819282014-06-05T13:03:21.310-04:002014-06-05T13:03:21.310-04:00JBS - as one of my former teachers said - don'...JBS - as one of my former teachers said - don't keep the faith - spread. You may look on it as a pearl of great price to be locked away. I see it as a wedding feast to which we invite others...Bill Hobbshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10134670944420445567noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-3723356053007487202014-06-05T12:53:05.680-04:002014-06-05T12:53:05.680-04:00"[Isn't] the main problem a tremendous lo..."[Isn't] the main problem a tremendous loss of the fear of God and the narcissism that accompanies this?" Yes, indeed. Few Catholics are concerned with salvation, their own or that of their neighbors.<br /><br />"[We] are not to look at our neighbor and base our participation in the Church and attendance at Mass on what kind of Catholics they are. We are to focus on the Lord and the Lord only and in that way we will never be scandalized." Very wise words, Father.<br /><br />Bill Hobbs, we must guard the Holy Faith like a precious pearl, and resit the devil, who prowls about like a roaring lion, looking for someone to devour.Rood Screenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09816036539243214384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-40569858730276879222014-06-05T12:37:06.305-04:002014-06-05T12:37:06.305-04:00"The boon of holy modesty"....I think yo..."The boon of holy modesty"....I think you're missing the boat on what Pope Francis is saying...trying to do. The three guys on the altar in the picture at the top of the page don't exude "holy modesty". Looks a bit more like the Siegfried and Roy show in Las Vegas. The white tigers will be out shortly.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com