tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post655970674636490768..comments2024-03-28T18:02:12.286-04:00Comments on southern orders: SANDRO MAGISTER GIVES US REAL NEWS ON POPE OAUL'S EVENTUAL DISDAIN FOR THE CONTRIVED MASS HE APPROVEDFr. Allan J. McDonaldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comBlogger47125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-3310725728854402172018-04-25T15:25:34.053-04:002018-04-25T15:25:34.053-04:00John Nolan,
The only way I would go to a Kavanaug...John Nolan,<br /><br />The only way I would go to a Kavanaugh Liturgy is if he celebrated ad orientem so I wouldn't have to gaze upon his "liberal" smug face! TJMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-89050522508762540092018-04-25T14:36:34.010-04:002018-04-25T14:36:34.010-04:00TJM
I have a great amount of contempt for those w...TJM<br /><br />I have a great amount of contempt for those who are prepared to contribute under their own identity but hit the 'anonymous' button when they want to troll. If MJK fits the bill then I am truly sorry for him. He has important and cogent points to make, yet wrecks his argument by ignorant trolling.<br /><br />Mind you, I would steer clear of his 'liturgies'! John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-77333784651741780682018-04-25T11:55:30.601-04:002018-04-25T11:55:30.601-04:00John Nolan,
That "internet troll" is no...John Nolan,<br /><br />That "internet troll" is none other than Kavanaugh!!TJMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-90032010210199129402018-04-24T17:48:00.258-04:002018-04-24T17:48:00.258-04:00Anonymous, you have no evidence because you have n...Anonymous, you have no evidence because you have not looked for any, and have not the slightest inclination to do so, since you have little interest in the subject in question. You are simply content to play the role of internet troll.<br /><br />Mark Thomas, on the other hand, deserves a reply since he feels strongly about the subject, has taken the trouble to ascertain at least some of the facts, although his interpretation is skewed because he takes the Manichean position that everything emanating from the Vatican must be right, and anyone criticizing a pope (any pope) or his henchmen must be wrong.<br /><br />The situation is far more nuanced. I suspect little could have been achieved until Paul VI was out of the way, since he had made up his mind that Lefebvre's stance constituted an affront to him personally, to the Petrine office, and to post-Conciliar developments which, for better or worse, he had nailed his colours to.<br /><br />JP II might have been more accommodating - he received the Archbishop cordially, and certainly wanted to move the Church in a more traditional direction. But he had more pressing concerns in 1978-1980, and left the negotiations to Cardinal Seper, the CDF prefect until 1981, whose ability he overrated and who (to put it mildly) bungled them.<br /><br />In fact neither side emerges with much credit, and when there was a real chance of reconciliation in 1988 Lefebvre overplayed his hand and the deal appeared to founder on his intransigence, to the dismay of many who sympathized with him.<br /><br />Mark Thomas also ignores the fact that those implacably opposed to the Old Mass occupied powerful positions. EDA was less liberal in its provisions than Ratzinger would have liked, and it was another 19 years before his will prevailed. And SP was greatly resented in some quarters.John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-82934534598978538202018-04-23T21:27:13.625-04:002018-04-23T21:27:13.625-04:00One, you specifically, make all sorts of allegatio...One, you specifically, make all sorts of allegations based on nothing but your phantastical imagination. <br /><br />Who do I think was feeding Pope Paul disinformation? I have no evidence that anyone was.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-89135318844598613282018-04-23T20:20:24.747-04:002018-04-23T20:20:24.747-04:00John Nolan,
Kavanaugh is a slightly brighter vers...John Nolan,<br /><br />Kavanaugh is a slightly brighter version of MT, so I cannot imagine him connecting the dots!TJMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-79285051622170731152018-04-23T19:31:46.129-04:002018-04-23T19:31:46.129-04:00Kavanaugh
Lefebvre, when finally granted an audie...Kavanaugh<br /><br />Lefebvre, when finally granted an audience with Paul VI in September 1976, was astonished to find that Paul believed his seminarians took an oath against the Pope. Who do you think was feeding him disinformation, if not his Secretary of State? Given Villot's animosity towards the SSPX, as evidenced in his public letters and comments, not to mention his actions, one would be hard put apportion the blame to anyone else.John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-67924887519272378602018-04-23T13:50:36.256-04:002018-04-23T13:50:36.256-04:00Folks who pretend that Archbishop Lefebvre was in ...Folks who pretend that Archbishop Lefebvre was in the right in having placed himself above God and His Church...that the Archbishop's rights were trampled...that he was the great savior of the Church, surrounded by big, bad Churchmen...<br /><br />...run into one monumental difficulty: Pope Saint John Paul II.<br /><br />One month after he was elected Pope, Saint John Paul II received Archbishop Lefebvre warmly. <br /><br />Had he submitted to Pope Saint John Paul II's authority, Archbishop Lefebvre would not have inflicted excommunication upon himself. The Archbishop would not have inflicted tremendous damage to the SSPX.<br /><br />Pope Saint John Paul II offered to the SSPX everything that was necessary to permit the SSPX required to have thrived throughout the Church.<br /><br />Bottom line: Archbishop Lefebvre botched everything during Pope Saint John Paul II's Pontificate. Archbishop Lefebvre inflicted excommunication upon himself. He damaged greatly the SSPX.<br /><br />Pope Saint John Paul II displayed tremendous mercy to and pastoral concern for Archbishop Lefebvre and the SSPX. <br /><br />Unfortunately, Archbishop Lefebvre rejected Pope Saint John Paul II's filial love, concern, and mercy.<br /><br />Pax.<br /><br />Mark ThomasMark Thomasnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-81852892169244001202018-04-23T11:33:35.702-04:002018-04-23T11:33:35.702-04:00Kavanaugh,
LOL - now you're lying and priests...Kavanaugh,<br /><br />LOL - now you're lying and priests shouldn't lie. But WHEN are you going to implement SC in your parish and teach your folks how to chant the parts of the Mass, proper to them, in Latin? I need to make a report to the Vatican, so I need to know.TJMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-62152567923299554702018-04-23T10:49:14.586-04:002018-04-23T10:49:14.586-04:00Oh, I read years ago that Villot did not deny Lefe...Oh, I read years ago that Villot did not deny Lefebvre his rights. Didn't you read that article? I think I found it on the internet, so it must be true.....<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-30977865774581284462018-04-23T09:20:19.342-04:002018-04-23T09:20:19.342-04:00Kavanaugh,
LOL - you did not address the fact tha...Kavanaugh,<br /><br />LOL - you did not address the fact that Villot denied Archbishop Lefebvre his rights under canon law, you old inartful dodger you. When are you going to tell us if you have implemented SC at your parish and that you have taught your congregation to sing the parts of the Mass, proper to them, in Latin? TJMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-50895941711787866782018-04-23T08:55:41.052-04:002018-04-23T08:55:41.052-04:00"I actually read many years ago that Villot, ..."I actually read many years ago that Villot, although from a distinguished family, was a communist sympathizer,...<br /><br />I actually read, not 5 minutes ago, that Catholics worship and adore the Blessed Virgin Mary as co-equal with God.<br /><br />And that the Jesuits were responsible for the assassination of Abraham Lincoln as part of the Catholic church's plan to overthrow the US government.<br /><br />And that there are tunnels that connect convents and rectories and that the tunnels are used for the burial of the illegitimate children conceived by trysting nuns and priests.<br /><br />I actually read these things!!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-20750114502488660642018-04-23T02:31:06.161-04:002018-04-23T02:31:06.161-04:00Mr. Nolan, your comments in regard to Pope Blesse...Mr. Nolan, your comments in regard to Pope Blessed Paul VI are wrong. Pope Blessed Paul VI desired to cooperate with Archbishop Lefebvre to allow the SSPX to prosper.<br /><br />However, in 1974 A.D., Archbishop Lefebvre issued an horrific declaration against the Church and Pope.<br /><br />Archbishop Lefebvre said:<br /><br />"Because of this adherence [to Eternal Rome] we refuse and have always refused to follow the Rome of neo-Modernist and neo-Protestant tendencies such as were clearly manifested during the Second Vatican Council, and after the Council in all the resulting reforms. <br /><br />"No authority, even the very highest in the hierarchy, can constrain us to abandon or diminish our Catholic Faith such as it has been clearly expressed and professed by the Church's Magisterium for nineteen centuries."<br />======================================================================<br /><br />As to big, bad Cardinal Villot having "dripped poison into the ear of Paul VI and used his position as Secretary of State to ensure that Achbishop Lefebvre was denied justice."<br /><br />Okay. Let us pretend that that's the case.<br /><br />-- Archbishop Lefevbre, prior to, and following, his 1976 A.D. suspension a divinis, defied and launched vicious verbal attacks against the Church and Pope. He made it clear that Rome's authority over him was to be ignored by him.<br /><br />-- Pope Saint John Paul II's reign began on October 16, 1978 A.D.. On November 18, 1978 A.D., Pope Saint John Paul II received in audience Archbishop Lefebvre.<br /><br />Pope Saint John Paul II made it clear that he would cooperate with Archbishop Lefebvre to ensure the SSPX's holy success.<br /><br />Big, bad Cardinal Villot was Secretary of State. Nevertheless, Pope Saint John Paul II made it clear that he, not Cardinal Villot, called the shots in regard to Archbishop Lefebvre's case. <br /><br />Besides, Cardinal Villot was out of the picture in March 1979 A.D., as he had fallen asleep in the Lord.<br /><br />-- At the beginning of Pope Saint John Paul II's Pontificate, Archbishop Lefebvre had the golden opportunity to have been placed under the Pope's protection. The SSPX was poised to flourish in holy fashion.<br /><br />Unfortunately, Archbishop Lefebvre squandered the golden opportunity in question. He squandered the mercy and protection that he could have received from Pope Saint John Paul II.<br /><br />Following his warm 1978 A.D. audience with Pope Saint John Paul II, Archbishop Lefebvre worked his way to the grave penalty of excommunication.<br /><br />The Archbishop mishandled himself and the SSPX...on a big-time scale.<br /><br />Pax.<br /><br />Mark ThomasMark Thomasnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-48143530236851732672018-04-22T20:50:15.716-04:002018-04-22T20:50:15.716-04:00To Mr. Nolan and those who promote the notion that...To Mr. Nolan and those who promote the notion that we owe to Archbishop Lefebvre/SSPX the preservation and propagation of the TLM:<br /><br />I offer the following tremendous comment posted to Father McDonald's great blog by DJR. In 2016 A.D., I has set aside for reference the post in question. DJR shattered the notion that the TLM owes its preservation to Archbishop Lefebvre/SSPX.<br /><br />By the way, should we wish to pretend that one man was responsible for the TLM's preservation, then Father Gommar DePauw must be mentioned in that conservation.<br /><br />Long before the SSPX existed, Father DePauw was, by far, and on an international level, the TLM's greatest ally.<br />============================================================================<br /><br />Now, to DJR's post:<br /><br />"Regarding Campos, I was speaking of the priests who were ordained by Bishop de Castro Mayer prior to 1991. For several decades after the council, he was ordaining priests, and those priests were offering the old Mass, with absolutely no need for the SSPX.<br /><br />"The people of Campos were attending the old Mass for decades without the SSPX and presumably would continue to do so without them, so those people don't fit into your statement.<br /><br />"France has several monasteries where the old Mass is offered, with absolutely no input from the SSPX, nor did they ever need it. And laymen can assist at Masses in those places.<br /><br />"There are also other places in Europe where the old Mass had been maintained by priests who resisted the changes but who were not affiliated with the SSPX, and I am not talking about sedevacantists.<br /><br />"Another exception is China. There are Catholics in China who have not switched to the Novus Ordo Missae. They kept the old Mass, yet they have never had the SSPX.<br /><br />"People who, for decades, have attended Masses offered by Father Yves Normandin of Canada could do so without the SSPX. He's still alive.<br /><br />"Father Gommar DePauw publicly offered the old Mass until his death without any need for the SSPX.<br /><br />"Father Carley and Father Roach in Ohio offered the old Mass publicly in their chapels without any need for the SSPX.<br /><br />"Other names would be Fathers Snyder, Sullivan, Marchosky, Miceli, Houghton, Crane, Pulvermacher, Monsignor Hodges, LeBlanc, Father Stemper, SJ.<br /><br />"Father Gruner offered the old Mass until he passed away; he had no need of the SSPX in order to do so.<br /><br />"These were diocesan priests, Jesuits, et cetera, who resisted the changes, and older Traditionalists would recognize their names.<br /><br />"Father Wathen offered the old Mass until he died in 2006. He didn't need the SSPX.<br /><br />"Bishop Mendez of Arecibo, Puerto Rico, maintained the old Mass and obviously did not need the SSPX to do so.<br /><br />"Benedictine Father Leonard Giardina publicly offered the old Mass at Christ the King Abbey in Alabama for many, many years, and the faithful continue to have access to the old Mass there, with approval of the local ordinary and without any need for the SSPX (although he did at one time think of affiliating with them but never did). And he was not a sedevacantist.<br /><br />"There are other examples.<br /><br />"The SSPX certainly did much of the legwork for many people, but the idea that everyone, anywhere in the world, owes attendance at the Latin Mass to the SSPX is just not true, and never has been."<br /><br />DJR <br /> April 27, 2016 at 11:52 PM<br />============================================================<br /><br />Pax.<br /><br />Mark ThomasMark Thomasnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-57738643174817916292018-04-22T19:58:44.944-04:002018-04-22T19:58:44.944-04:00"Villot told Paul VI that Lefebvre's semi..."Villot told Paul VI that Lefebvre's seminarians took an oath against the Pope."<br /><br />Davies was either present for the conversation or his source was. If Davies was not there his source who was present has a name. And that name is...?<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-572665029745626032018-04-22T19:55:06.525-04:002018-04-22T19:55:06.525-04:00John Nolan
Agreed but Kavanaugh, the inartful dod...John Nolan<br /><br />Agreed but Kavanaugh, the inartful dodger, is busy working on a narrative to salvage his thesis on Villot! I actually read many years ago that Villot, although from a distinguished family, was a communist sympathizer, just what you would want in a papal secretary of stste ( if the goal was undermining the faith). Wasn’t Villot also involved in the Mindzenty betrayal?TJMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-40133471099477005112018-04-22T14:58:17.248-04:002018-04-22T14:58:17.248-04:00TJM
Agreed, but it is not 'my view' of Vi...TJM<br /><br />Agreed, but it is not 'my view' of Villot, which would simply be an unsubstantiated opinion. It is a conclusion based on copious evidence from numerous sources. John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-27508455073016264862018-04-22T13:58:19.285-04:002018-04-22T13:58:19.285-04:00Anonymous Kavanaugh,
This supports John Nolan'...Anonymous Kavanaugh,<br /><br />This supports John Nolan's view of Villot:<br /><br />Lefebvre, former archbishop of Dakar and superior of the Holy Ghost Fathers, had founded, with Paul's approval, the Society of St. Pius X for the preservation of the traditional liturgical rites of the Church. In 1976, it became apparent that the archbishop would not use the new rites at all, so he was ordered by the local bishop (in Switzerland) to disband the SSPX. He was then told by the Vatican that if he ordained the current class he would be suspended. Lefebvre appealed to the Apostolic Signatura, but Cardinal Villot, the secretary of state, forbade the Signatura to hear the case. This was a violation of canon law."<br /><br />Villot sounds like a really swell guyTJMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-5310648802338832282018-04-22T11:25:11.689-04:002018-04-22T11:25:11.689-04:00Kavanaugh
Villot told Paul VI that Lefebvre's...Kavanaugh<br /><br />Villot told Paul VI that Lefebvre's seminarians took an oath against the Pope. This was palpably untrue, but the 'Hamlet Pope' swallowed it.<br /><br />Michael Davies's research, which was meticulous and thorough, documents the fact that Lefebvre was denied a fair hearing. I doubt you have read his 'Apologia pro Marcel Lefebvre' and would probably dismiss it as partisan (which it is, although this does not negate the truth of his assertions which are based on concrete evidence). The fact that a biographer has come to admire his subject does not negate his conclusions. A discerning reader can cope with this.<br /><br />A closed mind like yours, of course, cannot. John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-19096184183695751392018-04-22T11:08:11.608-04:002018-04-22T11:08:11.608-04:00MT
I think you are ignoring the widespread hostil...MT<br /><br />I think you are ignoring the widespread hostility towards the Tridentine Rite in the 1970s on the part of the bishops (especially in France and Italy), and key players in the Vatican, not excluding Paul VI.<br /><br />I have already mentioned Villot's role, and had the internet been around the true story would have emerged much earlier. As it was, all we had in the 1970s was the anodyne and non-critical Catholic press.<br /><br />Then along came Michael Davies (1937-2004) who actually did his research. Lefebvre was stubborn and tenacious, but his enemies wielded the power and used it ruthlessly to discredit him and his movement, and to deny him natural justice (he was an archbishop after all).<br /><br />But that was the way the Vatican operated in the last ten dismal years of the Pauline pontificate. Your precious TLM would have sunk without trace had Paul VI and Bugnini had their way. Can you imagine QAA, EDA, SP and UE happening without Lefebvre's heroic witness? Dream on.John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-88071067490672745452018-04-22T09:26:05.280-04:002018-04-22T09:26:05.280-04:00Anonymous Kavanaugh,
Common knowledge among Vatic...Anonymous Kavanaugh,<br /><br />Common knowledge among Vatican watchers. Villot was a left-wing loon, ergo, you would be his best budTJMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-38221126294936739632018-04-22T06:42:58.864-04:002018-04-22T06:42:58.864-04:00John Nolan suggests: "Perhaps you might consi...John Nolan suggests: "Perhaps you might consider doing some basic research before regaling us with your half-baked opinions."<br /><br />One wonders what "research" underpins the less-than-half-baked opinion that, "Jean-Marie Cardinal Villot dripped poison into the ear of Paul VI and used his position as Secretary of State to ensure that Achbishop Lefebvre was denied justice."<br /><br />Hmmm...?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-26878253400130454252018-04-21T23:46:56.354-04:002018-04-21T23:46:56.354-04:00Had Archbishop Lefebvre not placed himself above H...Had Archbishop Lefebvre not placed himself above Holy Mother Church, then Cardinal Burke could never have uttered the following:<br /><br />"The fact of the matter is that the Priestly Society of St. Pius X is in schism since the late Abp. Marcel Lefebvre ordained four bishops without the mandate of the Roman Pontiff. <br /><br />"And so it is not legitimate to attend Mass or to receive the sacraments in a church that's under the direction of the Priestly Society of St. Pius X."<br />=============================================================================<br /><br />As Bishop Fellay has acknowledged, due to the Society's irregular status, many Catholics, who otherwise would have attended SSPX's chapels, have shunned the SSPX.<br /><br />Archbishop Lefebvre hammered himself and the SSPX via his schismatic act against Pope Saint John Paul II.<br /><br />Thanks to Archbishop Lefebvre's dreadful 1988 A.D. schismatic act, thirty years later, such prominent Churchmen as Cardinal Burke (as well as Cardinal Müller) do not hesitate to brand the SSPX "schismatic."<br /><br />Again, thirty years ago, had he obeyed God and His True Church, Archbishop Lefebvre and the SSPX would ever since have enjoyed Rome's blessing and protection.<br /><br />Archbishop Lefebvre set back the spread of the SSPX/TLM...a setback of decades. What a shame.<br /><br />Pax.<br /><br />Mark ThomasMark Thomasnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-35191053640253326792018-04-21T23:18:40.677-04:002018-04-21T23:18:40.677-04:00ByzRC said..."He was merely standing up for w...ByzRC said..."He was merely standing up for what he always knew to be right. I can respect that level of bravery."<br /><br />Was it brave of Archbishop Lefebvre to have ranted and raved against Popes Blessed Paul VI and Saint John Paul II? To have declared that said Popes had separated from the Church?<br /><br />Was it brave of Archbishop Lefebvre to have claimed that the "Conciliar Church," "New Church," and "Modernist Rome," under Pope Blessed Paul XVI's and Saint John Paul II's authority, were not Catholic?<br /><br />Was it brave of Archbishop Lefebvre to have said that Pope Saint John Paul II had placed himself "at the service of the destroyers of Christianity and of the universal Kingdom of Our Lord Jesus Christ?"<br /><br />Pax.<br /><br />Mark ThomasMark Thomasnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-22215331275898556542018-04-21T23:10:13.921-04:002018-04-21T23:10:13.921-04:00ByzRC said..."MT, Abp Lefebvre repeated said ...ByzRC said..."MT, Abp Lefebvre repeated said that he was, at the time, being told that his past thirty years of ministry was wrong."<br /><br />Rome attempted to cooperate with him. He even signed the Protocol that, had he not taken back his word, would have granted unto him powerful protection to promote his work throughout the world.<br />==============================<br /><br />ByzRC said..."I don't agree with your conclusion."<br /><br />Okay. But Bishop Fellay has acknowledged that the SSPX's irregular status has kept many Catholics from attending SSPX chapels.<br /><br />Archbishop Lefebvre's self-inflicted excommunication...and the SSPX's refusal to have entered into full-communion with Rome...set the SSPX back several decades.<br /><br />Pax.<br /><br />Mark ThomasMark Thomasnoreply@blogger.com