tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post6480658167868435630..comments2024-03-28T12:59:52.914-04:00Comments on southern orders: SOME THOUGHTS ON THE TRANSCENDENCE OF THE MASS OF THE AGESFr. Allan J. McDonaldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-28929242393075309722015-01-28T13:02:34.956-05:002015-01-28T13:02:34.956-05:00At my parish, which is Greek, Orthros starts at 8:...At my parish, which is Greek, Orthros starts at 8:20 and ends around 9:45. We pray the entire canon, which makes our Orthros a little longer than some other Greek Churches.<br /><br />There are other variables too: If the bishop or patriarch has written an encyclical, that might be read after the Gospel, and then there's another sermon at the end. Other times, there is just a sermon at the end and not one after the Gospel.Marchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13510317669833026685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-70078834717514417712015-01-28T11:58:08.996-05:002015-01-28T11:58:08.996-05:00Jdj—
I attend a Greek parish when I'm in Char...Jdj—<br /><br />I attend a Greek parish when I'm in Charlotte, NC, (St. Nekatarios). Orthros begins at 8h15, with the Divine Liturgy ending around 11h15-11h30 (beginning around 9h15). Marc (I believe) attends a Greek parish.<br /><br />On the other hand, at my OCA parish here in Macon, we start with the third and sixth hours at 9h40, with the Liturgy itself starting circa 10, and it ends around 11h30.<br /><br />In essence, the actual Liturgy is around 1.5 to 2 hours. A lot of variables change this. For example, St. Nektarios is almost completely full on Sunday, and 97% of the congregation receives. With the "Communion formula" (the servant of God X receives... etc.) the times it takes to administer the Eucharist increases.<br /><br />Another variable (especially in Greek churches) is the bilingual nature of the Liturgy in ethnic parishes. At St.Nektarios the Creed, the readings, the Pater Noster, and the communion prayers are recited in <i>both</i> Greek and English. Naturally, this takes time. Antiochian parishes (I believe) also have this, but with Arabic instead of Greek.<br /><br />Russian churches don't have this variable. The liturgy is either in Slavonic (ROCOR parishes) or English (OCA parishes). (Well... some parishes—mostly ROCOR—have adopted a Slavonic/English 'feature', but they're not common.)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00554830859411216515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-35519729734150293032015-01-28T11:21:22.303-05:002015-01-28T11:21:22.303-05:00And, Marc, I love that you stressed "no legal...And, Marc, I love that you stressed "no legalistic attendance requirement" in the Eastern Rite, what is stressed here is that attendance is a privilege, not an "obligation". Believe me, the parishioners see and respond to that! They only miss Divine Liturgy for illness...even the very elderly with their walkers!Jdjnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-34612592151603601552015-01-28T11:14:34.205-05:002015-01-28T11:14:34.205-05:00Wow, Marc that is a long DL even for the East. Do...Wow, Marc that is a long DL even for the East. Does that include Orthros before the Liturgy? The one I sometimes attend here begins at 9 and usually ends about 11:30 a.m., but that includes Orthros from 9-10 am.Jdjnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-3427005584164247602015-01-28T08:40:47.285-05:002015-01-28T08:40:47.285-05:00George, if people can't make it to the Divinve...George, if people can't make it to the Divinve Liturgy because of work, then they just can't make it. There's no legalistic attendance requirement. Such a one would probably discuss it with his or her priest. Maybe they could make Vespers the night before (as I do on the eve of feasts that fall on weekdays when I have to work).<br /><br />Flavius, in referring to the fast, was probably talking about how difficult it would be for a priest to offer multiple liturgies without eating or drinking anything. The liturgy at my parish starts at 8:20 am and ends around 11:30 am. It would be difficult to have multiple liturgies, and it would be difficult for the priest to stand at the altar for that long without at least having some water, which is precluded by the Eucharistic Fast (a fast that begins for some the previous evening after Vespers at 5 or 6, but at the least requires taking no food or water before receiving Holy Communion).Marchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13510317669833026685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-8410574795900956252015-01-28T07:19:29.748-05:002015-01-28T07:19:29.748-05:00Anonymous at 4:54, "I'll decide what part...Anonymous at 4:54, "I'll decide what part of Catholicism makes sense to me, you decide for you." That ain't how it works. That is called "cafeteria Catholicism." The Mysteries of the Faith are equally accessible to the well-educated and to the ignorant. They are not, however, accessible to the cynic, the rationalist, or the positivist. It is not a matter of rational understanding, it is a matter of a will that is humbled enough to be captured by His will. "Faith seeking understanding." That is the beauty of the Mass…all of the Mysteries of the Faith are right there for everyone to experience, from the beggar to the rich man. They are not there to analyze, theologize, or question…only to receive. It is the one place and time in our lives where our wills can be most closely attuned to His. The Faithful long for it and seek it with humble hearts.Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-33919824825435729592015-01-28T06:36:31.871-05:002015-01-28T06:36:31.871-05:00Anonymous at 5:22,
Correct me if...Anonymous at 5:22,<br /> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe some of St. Charles Borromeo's personal vestments are still extant (I have seen pictures of some of them on "New Liturgical Movement"). While they are not Roman "fiddleback" in style they are also not the typical Gothic style that we see today either. As I recall, they have a distinctive shape, actually somewhat of a modified Gothic which reminds me a bit of a Roman style because of the overall shape. I believe St. Bede Studio (advertised on NLM) will still make you a set in the St. Charles cut.Joseph Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00036852763902493131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-91965761887566758892015-01-27T22:25:56.673-05:002015-01-27T22:25:56.673-05:00No, Anonymous@4:54 PM, Faith is not believing what...No, Anonymous@4:54 PM, Faith is not believing what "does not make sense"—it is believing what reaches beyond the scope of human understanding, yet all the same does not contradict reason or logic. The truths held by faith do not go *against* human reason, but *above* it. If the human mind had the capacity to grasp what it sees as mysteries of faith, it would recognize them as entirely logical. No mental gymnastics would need to be done, no other truths denied or ignored in the process.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-21436648791357297012015-01-27T20:15:38.998-05:002015-01-27T20:15:38.998-05:00Marc and Flavius
OK, from a certain perpective I u...Marc and Flavius<br />OK, from a certain perpective I understand the explanation. I also understand there are times when a second celebration of the Divine Liturgy would not be necessary. I can also see though that, depending on what time of the day the Divine Liturgy was celebrated, and some parishioners work schedules, there may be those for whom it would not be possible to attend the one liturgy. I know that can happen in the Catholic church even with more than one Mass scheduled on a day, but it is not as likely to be as much of a problem. I'm thinking particularly of Sunday.<br />As far as breaking the fast, how is that possible since the priest is not partaking of mere food, but the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ?Georgenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-58036085272852432872015-01-27T19:12:44.656-05:002015-01-27T19:12:44.656-05:00George—
A priest or bishop may celebrate one Divi...George—<br /><br />A priest or bishop may celebrate one Divine Liturgy a day on an altar. The reason a priest may not celebrate multiple Liturgies is that the priest <b>must</b> receive the Eucharist; at the same time, the priest is bound by the same fasting rule as everyone else: he <b>must</b> fast from midnight in order to receive.<br /><br />Receiving the Eucharist breaks the fast, and therefore makes it impossible for another Liturgy to take place on the same day.<br /><br />None of this, however, means that the 'one liturgy a day' rule is to be taken literally, as meaning there may be only one Divine Liturgy in a geographical area. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00554830859411216515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-7518073444193140292015-01-27T18:55:58.898-05:002015-01-27T18:55:58.898-05:00George, having one liturgy per day flows from the ...George, having one liturgy per day flows from the ecclesiology of the Church. The Church is the Eucharist congregation of the laity surrounding their bishop. Since the bishop cannot be everywhere at once, he has priests as assistants in the various parishes. The Eucharistic community, then, is the local church with their priest. There might be multiple such communities in one town or city, but there is only one community within each parish. And so there is one Eucharist celebrated by the people in each parish.Marchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13510317669833026685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-52512537552720124422015-01-27T17:56:29.067-05:002015-01-27T17:56:29.067-05:00Fiddleback shmiddleback.....Fiddleback shmiddleback.....Judennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-68551524513145399432015-01-27T17:22:42.300-05:002015-01-27T17:22:42.300-05:00The "fiddleback" is not the traditional ...The "fiddleback" is not the traditional Roman vestment, and was condemned by none less than St Charles Borromeo.<br /><br />"In the 17th and particularly from the 18th century, authorised by no Ecclesiastical authority, the form of the chasuble almost universally used was that pendant-like form which we call the “Roman” chasuble. There were only a few voices raised in objection to setting aside the Tradition of the ample chasuble. And then, although it only occurred by degrees and over a period of time, that pendant form of chasuble, which to S. Charles represented such a break with Tradition, became regarded as THE legitimate Tradition. Pause to reflect on this, when you read expressions such as “Traditional Roman vestments” etc. We have the strange situation where the very dimensions of chasuble that Saint Charles strove to preserve, have been described by many latter-day “Traditionalists” as “un-traditional”!"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-74641941501896340052015-01-27T16:54:38.542-05:002015-01-27T16:54:38.542-05:00To "make sense" means to be reasonable o...To "make sense" means to be reasonable or comprehensible. I'll decide what part of Catholicism "makes sense" to me. You decide for you.<br /><br />"Faith" is believing (or trying to believe) things that you don't understand....that don't "make sense"....virgin birth, rising from the dead...creating the universe.....Of course, with all of your higher education, you probably have total comprehension and understanding of all of these things that are "mysteries" to us ignorant peasants..Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-3412272064777526452015-01-27T16:27:50.637-05:002015-01-27T16:27:50.637-05:00Marc and Anonymous at 6:42 PM
"I know in Gre...Marc and Anonymous at 6:42 PM<br /><br />"I know in Greek Orthodox circles, a priest may offer only one Divine Liturgy (Mass) on the same altar in a given day, the theory being the sacrifice is a unique event that cannot be repeated in a single day."<br /><br />"In the Orthodox Church, there are many reasons for having only one liturgy per day. The best reason has to do with ecclesiology in that there is one body and so one Eucharist."<br /><br />Interesting. I wasn't aware of that..<br />Maybe I'm looking at this in the wrong way, but in a city say, which has more than one Orthodox church, is there not a liturgy celebrated in each church?. And the same statewide? That is more than one liturgy per day. I know, I know it's per parish. Why is it wrong for a Catholic parish<br />to offer more than one Mass per day? Where does this restriction on the part of the Orthodox come from? It seem like this is imposing a Temporal restriction on something which is Eternal.Georgenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-624598919779744662015-01-27T15:37:30.220-05:002015-01-27T15:37:30.220-05:00Anonymous, please tell us which articles of the Cr...Anonymous, please tell us which articles of the Creed do not make sense. Which of there CCC? You have a strange Christology, btw.Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-42645859953760770892015-01-27T13:38:39.443-05:002015-01-27T13:38:39.443-05:00I know this is entirely off topic, but is sort of ...I know this is entirely off topic, but is sort of in the 'wheel house' of this blog and the skill sets of the usual suspects to examine the minute details of ritual and rubrics.<br /><br />So, enjoy: http://wdtprs.com/blog/2015/01/ask-father-punching-the-archbishop-after-he-punches-you/JusadBellumnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-25650024424101003072015-01-27T11:33:26.227-05:002015-01-27T11:33:26.227-05:00Really Henry, does one person "standing aroun...Really Henry, does one person "standing around acting in THE PERSON of Christ" "make sense"?<br /><br />There are many, many things that Catholics do and believe that don't "make sense". Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-30430895882893135502015-01-27T09:42:33.897-05:002015-01-27T09:42:33.897-05:00Priests do not concelebrate Mass in the EF, before...Priests do not concelebrate Mass in the EF, before or after Vatican II. A priest offers sacrifice <i>in persona Christi</i>. Does it really make sense to speak of a group of people standing around acting in THE PERSON of Christ?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-54493513484767959132015-01-27T09:40:15.248-05:002015-01-27T09:40:15.248-05:00There were probably concelebrated liturgies rather...There were probably concelebrated liturgies rather early in Church history. In the pre-Vatican II days,* concelebration occurred at ordination Masses. Concelebration probably has roots in gatherings with the bishop, of which ordination would be an example.<br /><br />In the Orthodox Church, there are many reasons for having only one liturgy per day. The best reason has to do with ecclesiology in that there is one body and so one Eucharist. <br /><br />Thee proliferation of multiple masses per day in a single parish probably arose in the Middle Ages where masses began to be offered for one intention. In the Orthodox Church, the liturgy is for everyone and is never celebrated for a particular intention. Nor are there ever "private liturgies" in the Orthodox Church.<br /><br />So, you see, these things are influenced by a different understanding of ecclesiology.<br /><br />* At some point, the West probably had the same mentality as the Orthodox Church has now. But, usually, "pre-Vatican II" means the period between Trent and Vatican II.Marchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13510317669833026685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-41548824416615455242015-01-26T18:42:30.452-05:002015-01-26T18:42:30.452-05:00Anonymous at 124 thanks Jsopeh Johnson for his ans...Anonymous at 124 thanks Jsopeh Johnson for his answer on the chasubles. Think I like the fiddleback ones betrer.<br /><br />Also to anyone---were there concelebrated Masses back in the days before Vatican 2? If not, interested in the theology behind that. Ditto if any limits on number of Masses in a day---I know in Greek Orthodox circles, a priest may offer only one Divine Liturgy (Mass) on the same altar in a given day, the theory being the sacrifice is a unique event that cannot be repeated in a single day.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-37655447216928406082015-01-26T17:08:23.170-05:002015-01-26T17:08:23.170-05:00Anonymous at 1:24,
Actually, it ...Anonymous at 1:24,<br /> Actually, it is the Roman ("fiddleback," which is actually more fiddle shaped in front with the rear being more of a straight-hanging rounded kind of flap) form of the chasuble that allows more of the alb and stole to show. The Roman style does not hang down over the arms (poncho style) as does the Gothic or the slightly shorter semi-Gothic (which is the more typical pre-Conciliar Gothic form that I prefer to see if the Roman is not used). <br /><br /> Given that the Roman style does not cover the arms, it would seem that it would give more freedom of movement (especially at the Consecration and Elevation) than does the Gothic. It would also seem that the Roman style would be cooler to wear in hot climates if it is not made in too heavy a material.Joseph Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00036852763902493131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-24499983066067016392015-01-26T15:26:39.542-05:002015-01-26T15:26:39.542-05:00It was in Bishop Fulton Sheen’s narration of a cla...It was in Bishop Fulton Sheen’s narration of a <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=R6AOvStZS64&x-yt-cl=84503534&x-yt-ts=1421914688" rel="nofollow">classic video</a> of a 1941 video of a solemn high Mass in Chicago, that-- in describing the cope worn by the priest during the Asperges rite—he delivers my nominee for the most savagely ironic single line uttered by a human being during the 20th century:<br /><br />"The large cape worn by the celebrant is called a cope. …. Its [the cope’s] use today in continued in memory of the ancient tradition. <i><b>It is a long-established principle of the Church never to completely drop from her public worship any ceremony, object, or prayer which once occupied a place in that worship.</b></i>"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-70889237770424093112015-01-26T13:24:01.166-05:002015-01-26T13:24:01.166-05:00Father M and John, thanks for your explanations of...Father M and John, thanks for your explanations of vestments for someone (myself) who grew up in the Vatican 2 era. Disturbing to hear how many of the older vestments were discarded in the 1960s.<br /><br />I guess the Gothic vestments were the ones like Cardinal Burke wore in some earlier blogs...looks like the Gothic chasuble is shorter than the Roman one, which allows you to see more of the alb and stole. Seems like the Gothic is easier to maneuver in during the consecration.<br /><br />The Episcopal Diocese of Atlanta years ago had a high church bishop, Judson Child (1923-2004), who brought a lot of pomp and ceremony to a traditionally (though no longer) "Low Church" diocese. He would wear the cope for the first part of the Eucharist, then change to a chasuble at the offertory, perhaps to emphasize the two parts of the liturgy, the word and the Eucharist (or "word and table" as some Protestants describe the parts of Communion). There was also a former Anglican church in Columbia SC, incorporated into Rome, where the priest had the chasuble folded on the altar rail for the liturgy of the word (wore alb and stole for first portion and then wore the chasuble for the second half).<br /><br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-30314195697398898242015-01-26T12:10:00.907-05:002015-01-26T12:10:00.907-05:00From Fr. Hunwicke today on how this “most beautifu...From <a href="http://liturgicalnotes.blogspot.com/2015/01/memories.html" rel="nofollow">Fr. Hunwicke</a> today on how this “most beautiful thing this side of heaven”, little changed in over a thousand years, virtually disappeared in the decade of the 1960s:<br /><br />“how did it all collapse so quickly? Is there an answer? You may have your answer. Here is my take on it: the very power of that liturgical culture was turned against it by the Evil One. It was so wonderful a rite that one accepted without thought the authority which guaranteed such a system. And when that same authority turned brutally against it ... "Forget all that: this is what the Church tells you to do now" ... there seemed no help for it, no defence.<br /><br />"Throughout Christian history, from the rising of the sun to its setting, the forms of the Liturgy rested on the <i>auctoritas</i> of Tradition; of the centuries which prescribed and graciously sanctified what was being done. That <i>auctoritas</i> was guaranteed, strongly backed up by, the (more transient) human structures of power within the Church, which preserved the Liturgy's integrity and guided its gradual and organic evolution. It was <i>inconceivable</i> that things could be different. Never had it been otherwise. But then, in an evil hour, those <i>same</i> structures <i>did</i> turn <i>against</i> the venerable and stately Roman rite. <i>The inconceivable happened. </i> Tradition, and ecclesiastical authority, seemed, for the very first time in two Catholic millennia, to be set <i>against</i> each other. Bewildered, not knowing where to turn but with great love for the Church and her authority, most of us succumbed, and submitted to one side of this terrible dichotomy."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com