tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post6219088462327458524..comments2024-03-28T20:30:10.681-04:00Comments on southern orders: IT'S THE INTERNAL FORUM, STUPID!Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-84319020679223892672017-01-13T22:40:01.607-05:002017-01-13T22:40:01.607-05:00"Only if there is no possible decision that c...<i>"Only if there is no possible decision that can be rendered because of technicalities, could one then use pastoral discernment based upon conscience to assist a Catholic to return to the sacraments without living as brother and sister."<br /></i><br /><br />The above makes absolutely no sense whatsoever because it ignores the major premise, which is covered by the following question:<br /><br />When confessing to a priest in the internal forum, is the penitent married to the person with whom he/she is engaging in sexual acts?<br /><br />The validity/invalidity of the first union is irrelevant because its invalidity does not mean the <i>second </i> union is valid.<br /><br />For a Catholic, a second union can NEVER be considered by the Church to be valid without a decree of nullity of a first union when the putative first spouse is still alive.<br /><br />If the second union is not valid, that means the two people involved are not married, which means they cannot engage in sexual acts with one another.<br /><br />A priest who counsels unmarried people that it is okay for them to engage in sexual acts is committing a mortal sin.DJRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18028761850444888285noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-83204961632391575022017-01-13T22:24:13.885-05:002017-01-13T22:24:13.885-05:00Dialogue said... I agree that there should be some...<i>Dialogue said... I agree that there should be some means of accommodating Catholics who are objectively in invalid marriages, but who are unable to prove this invalidity to an ecclesial tribunal.</i><br /><br />But all of this is ignoring one major problem: The fact that a first marriage has the potential of being invalid does not validate the second marriage.<br /><br />A Catholic who was in a prior union but who divorces and then marries outside the Church is not married to the second person.<br /><br />The second "marriage" is not valid; therefore, the people involved cannot, under any circumstances, engage in a conjugal relationship.<br /><br />Assuming that the first marriage were invalid, if there is a divorce and remarriage, all that means is that the person has entered into TWO invalid marriages.<br /><br />The Church cannot sanitize/regularize a second union without a decree of annulment concerning the first union; therefore, the Church can never consider the people involved in the second union married if it cannot annul the first one. <br /><br />If the Church were to do that, we would have to admit that the Church either, A, sanctions bigamy; or, B, sanctions divorce and remarriage, i.e., marriage is not indissoluble; or, C, sanctions Catholics marrying outside the Church and contrary to canon law. <br /><br />What is basically being proposed here is that there is a subset of people who are unmarried but who are allegedly allowed by the Church to engage in a sexual relationship.<br /><br />How is that possible?<br /><br />If this couple is permitted to engage in sexual conduct, why not other unmarrieds? Why not "gay" couples?<br /><br />People are looking at this issue backwards. <br /><br />The first question that needs to be asked and answered is: Are the two people who make up the second union married? <br /><br />If the answer is no, that ends the discussion. They cannot engage in the marital act.<br /><br />If the couple cannot receive an annulment, there is no way for them to receive Holy Communion while engaging in a sexual relationship because there is no way the Church can consider the second couple to be married.DJRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18028761850444888285noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-46522358766870850312017-01-10T13:05:09.551-05:002017-01-10T13:05:09.551-05:00I recall the event Fr K mentions due to impact it ...I recall the event Fr K mentions due to impact it might have had on the Kennedy family. rcghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09131930849106490711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-55502765467721759212017-01-10T13:02:30.690-05:002017-01-10T13:02:30.690-05:00Anon at 8:12 has an excellent point that could be ...Anon at 8:12 has an excellent point that could be a way forward for this mess. Perhaps we should have "Year of examination of conscience".rcghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09131930849106490711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-60481553656651598442017-01-10T10:42:37.027-05:002017-01-10T10:42:37.027-05:00Anonymous, read carefully please because this is i...Anonymous, read carefully please because this is important: those of us on this blog know that 99% of Catholics aren't paying much attention at all to this brouhaha. We readily admit that most people are so far past the whole "struggling in my conscience" dilemma what with 25% average mass attendance nation-wide and some surveys suggesting 80% of Catholic women use Contraception.<br /><br />But even though this is 'inside baseball' for you, it's still important for us to know what the Church is doing because we want to be serious and informed Catholics who obey our Holy Father and march in step with the Church rather than drifting off to "join the crowd" who are clueless and don't care.<br /><br />It's fine that YOU don't care. That's on you. But we care. It matters to us whether or not there's a de facto or de juris "schism". It matters whether or not what we had formerly been taught to be so is still "so" or whether doctrine we formerly held to be dogma is just "discipline" to be dispensed with for convenience sake.<br /><br />As others have posted, LOTS of Catholics have died rather than submit to similar changes and been recognized by the Church as genuine martyrs rather than as deluded souls burdened with an overzealous, scrupulous conscience.Jusadbellumnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-73357406914505981642017-01-10T08:12:40.005-05:002017-01-10T08:12:40.005-05:00Why so much energy wasted on this topic. The avera...Why so much energy wasted on this topic. The average Catholic today doesn't know or care what the Church teaches. Sin NEVER enters their minds because they are the best thing in the whole wide world. Does anyone think for one moment that any average "Catholic" living in 2017 would for one moment even consider not going up to receive Holy Commumion whenever they grace God with their presence at Mass? 99.99999999999% of Catholics today don't believe anything the Church teaches. Doesn't anyone understand that. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-13558771302375430922017-01-10T07:53:20.047-05:002017-01-10T07:53:20.047-05:00Allan, I don't recall the event, but what you&...Allan, I don't recall the event, but what you've laid out is the common understanding of how "internal forum" has worked.<br /><br />But - and it's a big one - there was a document from B16 about canon law/annulments, etc, some years back. Needing a better understanding I asked a canon lawyer - JCD - about it and his comment was that Pope Benedict had, in effect, done away with any use of an "Internal Forum" process. What was decided in the external forum - via a diocesan tribunal - was it. Case closed.<br /><br />We'll have to take up these question at our AL gathering here in the Savannah deanery on 8 February.Fr. Michael J. Kavanaughnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-22562739054743463232017-01-10T07:30:42.675-05:002017-01-10T07:30:42.675-05:00There are cases in which key witnesses have died, ...There are cases in which key witnesses have died, or in which they are unreachable or simply refuse to cooperate with the tribunal. However, I'm not sure why this should be an issue for confessors to resolve. In particular circumstances, it makes more sense for the bishop to be empowered to dispense from certain juridical requirements. <br /><br />The trouble with AL is not cases such as these, but cases in which a couple are clearly not free to marry, but live as if they are whilst receiving Holy Communion. Rood Screenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09816036539243214384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-90968623939073512462017-01-09T21:20:12.151-05:002017-01-09T21:20:12.151-05:00And when are things not clear? I suppose this who...And when are things not clear? I suppose this whole mess with Henry VIII would have been avoided if he had shown or paid off confessors to have shown that things were not clear. So much for the martyrs of the Faith.<br />As Cardinal Sarah has pointed out: "While Christians are dying for the faith and their fidelity to Jesus, in the West, men of the Church are trying to reduce the requirements of the Gospel to a minimum." (God or Nothing)Victornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-45759900060615244472017-01-09T20:06:41.245-05:002017-01-09T20:06:41.245-05:00Why would convalidation not be possible? if in the...Why would convalidation not be possible? if in the internal forum, the parish priest said it was up to the penitent's conscience and his conscience said his first marriage was not valid, then who's left to say it was?GenXBenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15298459502431357489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-84517349409339550042017-01-09T16:40:02.329-05:002017-01-09T16:40:02.329-05:00I agree that there should be some means of accommo...I agree that there should be some means of accommodating Catholics who are objectively in invalid marriages, but who are unable to prove this invalidity to an ecclesial tribunal. However, if the proposed pastoral innovation of A. L. was really just about invalid marriages that cannot be formally declared null, then surely the Holy Father would have said so. But he did not, and he does not. Rood Screenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09816036539243214384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-44956331945559255852017-01-09T14:51:28.372-05:002017-01-09T14:51:28.372-05:00The tragedy in all of this, is that we are having ...The tragedy in all of this, is that we are having this debate at all. One of the things I always admired about Holy, Mother the Church, was the fact that you used to know what the doctrine was; there was clarity. Now, that did not mean that one received the answer one desired, but you knew where the Church stood on an issue. The essential problem as I see it, is that some Catholics want Christianity without the Cross. They want the Faith to be a big, warm cuddly blanket, where weakenesses are not challenged, but encouraged. TJMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-58952094783310744162017-01-09T13:02:04.526-05:002017-01-09T13:02:04.526-05:00So.... if it's that simply why not answer the ...So.... if it's that simply why not answer the Dubia?Jusadbellumnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-38537053310901440362017-01-09T12:26:40.729-05:002017-01-09T12:26:40.729-05:00If, after extensive discussion with the confessor,...If, after extensive discussion with the confessor, can the priest/confessor make a recommendation to not approach communion? What should he do if the person presents himself anyway?rcghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09131930849106490711noreply@blogger.com