tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post5947390205155178970..comments2024-03-18T20:55:55.914-04:00Comments on southern orders: DISTINGUISHING BETWEEN IDEOLOGIES, SOCIOLOGIES, THEOLOGIES AND DOCTRINE/DOGMAFr. Allan J. McDonaldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comBlogger38125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-75858977427508387352015-01-18T08:02:24.698-05:002015-01-18T08:02:24.698-05:00Mommas and others like the altar girls because the...Mommas and others like the altar girls because they are cute. Progressives like them because they are cute and they serve the purpose of turning the Church into a socialist free-for-all. The first group is stupid and the second group is evil. Most Priests do not have the guts to confront the lay monsters by stopping the practice. They know they will get no help from their Bishop (who is supposed to be an advocate for Priests, but is mainly there to placate the laity and keep Priests from upsetting anyone). What a joke. I can't wait until we have altar transgenders…what will we call them…alter-girls/boys…altar shims…altardites…altarmorphs…I like that one.Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-15377510209524861412015-01-17T21:34:43.128-05:002015-01-17T21:34:43.128-05:00The altar girls controversy is a thicket which any...The altar girls controversy is a thicket which anyone (with even a modicum of sense) enters into with great trepidation. Until something issues from the Vatican which says otherwise, then we must live with the situation as it is. One thing I would suggest would be to make it pastoral policy that those serving at the altar are paragons and exemplars of the faith. Do they pray the rosary and other devotions(at least weekly, if not daily) and do they go frequently to confession (at least once a month). Do they go to pray in the Adoration chapel (I would say once a week would be good). I would seek out and ask those boys(first) and girls who I thought would be a good fit for this privilege.Georgenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-45385530720756278842015-01-17T12:10:08.313-05:002015-01-17T12:10:08.313-05:00http://www.onepeterfive.com/should-girls-serve-at-...http://www.onepeterfive.com/should-girls-serve-at-the-altar-a-former-altar-girl-weighs-in/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-11461731170493326642015-01-17T10:50:30.882-05:002015-01-17T10:50:30.882-05:00Fr Kavanaugh
Thank you for clarifying this. I sus...Fr Kavanaugh<br /><br />Thank you for clarifying this. I suspected that the theological argument was not germane to the 1994 decision to allow ('approve' is perhaps too strong a word) female servers, and you have confirmed this.<br /><br />If a parish employs altar girls (assuming that the bishop allows it and the celebrating priest has no objections either) then that's fine by me; although they are in a sense in a second-class position since they cannot serve in the EF and even in the OF their use is circumscribed and conditional.<br /><br />Compared with the older Rite, the server has little to do in the Novus Ordo and in a simple Mass 'cum populo' is not required at all. If it were felt that the presence of girls was dissuading boys from coming forward, then a parish priest would be acting correctly in reverting to all-male servers, since it was made clear that this tradition was important and should be fostered.<br /><br />Incidentally, I have often seen priests celebrating the older form of Mass without a maniple, for the simple reason that vestment sets purchased after 1967 did not include this item (at least until quite recently). <br /><br />John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-9137276371841907022015-01-17T08:43:15.643-05:002015-01-17T08:43:15.643-05:00Fr. Michael J. Kavanaugh,
Your argument is well p...Fr. Michael J. Kavanaugh,<br /><br />Your argument is well put and admirable. However, I have not said that altar girls are an impossibility, nor have I ranted about anything (ever, as I recall). The male priesthood and the exclusive use of male altar servers, however, does communicate the nuptial analogy better than employing girl servers. Rood Screenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09816036539243214384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-42204883010208890692015-01-16T16:45:01.095-05:002015-01-16T16:45:01.095-05:00John - Not all theological matters are doctrinal m...John - Not all theological matters are doctrinal matters. Two theologians can have a lively debate on the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin, but their theological discussions will be speculative, not doctrinal. <br /><br />Yes, a person who expects to be ordained has to be baptized first. No, a baptized person cannot carry out the functions of the ordained until he is ordained.<br /><br />Anon (Multiple) - You have asserted that having altar girls is dangerous to the reverence due to the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. I have asked you to explain HOW this is so.<br /><br />I do understand that altar girls were once banned, but that they are now approved. If the introduction of altar girls took the form of an "abuse," it is no longer such.<br /><br />Also, things that were once required are no longer required. A maniple was once required among the vestments worn by the priest at mass, yet that requirement is no longer in force. <br /><br />Fr. Michael J. Kavanaughnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-48533484642241984132015-01-16T14:56:30.842-05:002015-01-16T14:56:30.842-05:00Just curious, as the permission is up to the local...Just curious, as the permission is up to the local bishop with no obligation on the diocesan priests, does the Pope permit girl altar boys in the Diocese of Rome?<br /><br />StevenAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-25034937609815222602015-01-16T10:31:05.738-05:002015-01-16T10:31:05.738-05:00Father Kavanaugh,
You seem to be ignorant of the ...Father Kavanaugh,<br /><br />You seem to be ignorant of the whole history of how altar girls came to be. For a start, try reading this: http://www.adoremus.org/0302Altargirls.html<br /><br />And, don't tell me that you don't listen to Vatican II. Then read this post Vatican II instruction: "There are, of course, various roles that women can perform in the liturgical assembly: these include reading the Word of God and proclaiming the intentions of the Prayer of the Faithful. Women are not, however, permitted to act as altar servers". (Inaestimabile Donum)<br /><br />And this: "In conformity with norms traditional in the Church, women (single, married, religious), whether in churches, homes, convents, schools, or institutions for women, are barred from serving the priest at the altar". (Liturgicae Instaurationes)<br /><br />Pretty clear isn't it? Then why do we have altar girls now? I'll leave that to you to find out, but just maintain an open mind Pls. Father read it! You don't seem to listen first to the argument before you make your claims. And please don't give that argument that Popes are silent about altar therefore they are not against it. That simply is not the case. But if you are already hardened and deadset with altar girls, then there's no argument that can get across to you.<br /><br />PBdCAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-19642967116823028092015-01-16T10:25:04.736-05:002015-01-16T10:25:04.736-05:00Fr Kavanaugh
I appreciate the honesty of your ans...Fr Kavanaugh<br /><br />I appreciate the honesty of your answer. However, if (as you state) the inclusion of altar girls is not a doctrinal matter, then the theological justification you propose is irrelevant, since until theology is translated into doctrine it remains in the realm of speculation. <br /><br />The idea that 'Baptism, not Ordination is the foundation for ministry - any ministry - in the Church', begs several questions. Does it mean that those who are ordained need first to have been baptized? Or does it mean that all the baptized may exercise the functions of deacon or priest without the need for Holy Orders?<br /><br />It might be the case that Paul VI wanted to open the non-ordained ministries he instituted in 1972 to women but thought the time inopportune (despite the fact that women had been acting as lay readers at Mass since 1964) but there is no evidence to support this. Of course to have allowed it in the 1990s would have required more than a wider interpretation of Canon Law and an endorsement by the CDWDS. Yet twenty years later, and 42 years after Ministeria Quaedam, it does not appear to be high on the Papal agenda.<br /><br />Were it to be conceded, the next target would be the diaconate; already there are those who see no fundamental objection to women deacons. Although the instituted ministries are under-used (like the Minor Orders they replaced, they are seen as transitory rather than permanent) their reservation to men provides a useful buffer-zone or ring fence for Holy Orders proper.<br /><br />That's my take on it, anyway - I might be wrong.John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-49108117412619457802015-01-16T10:19:51.275-05:002015-01-16T10:19:51.275-05:00Fr. Kavanaugh,
You said, "If having girls se...Fr. Kavanaugh,<br /><br />You said, "If having girls serve is such a threat to the proper reverence due for the Real Presence in the Eucharist, then popes would have forbidden the practice."<br /><br />You seem not to read or understand the point I made. Popes John Paul and even Francis doesn't speak against dancing in the liturgy, therefore we ought to endorse it. Popes John Paul, Benedict, and Francis doesn't endorse altar railings either, therefore we should not restore them. Popes John Paul, Benedict, and Francis doesn't speak about rock music in the Masses celebrated in many places throughout the world, therefore such is not a threat to devotion to the Real Presence. Hahaha! Another argument from silence due to hyper Papalism. Anyway, good luck to you!<br /><br />PBdC<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-38957508794278013882015-01-16T09:26:55.415-05:002015-01-16T09:26:55.415-05:00Anon 2 - A serious flaw is evident in JBS's &q...Anon 2 - A serious flaw is evident in JBS's "manly" rant. It's called reification (or concretism), a fallacy of ambiguity. It is an error to mistake the abstract (the marriage metaphor) for the concrete reality (the relationship between Christ and the Church).<br /><br />The metaphor of marriage (a literary device) is used to describe the reality (relationship b/w Christ and the Church). But the metaphor isn't the reality.<br /><br />Peter is called the "rock," but we know he is not. Jesus called himself the "vine," but we know He is not a vine. The relationship between Christ and the Church is called a "marriage" with all the attendant descriptions, such as a "bride bedecked for the groom."<br /><br />We don't think and act as if Peter is a rock or Jesus a climbing or trailing woody stemmed plant. Why, then, do some take the metaphor (bride and groom) to be the concrete reality and act upon it? Reification. <br /><br />Fr. Michael J. Kavanaughnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-32103932920149850982015-01-16T09:19:42.191-05:002015-01-16T09:19:42.191-05:00Anon 2, your scriptural references may illustrate ...Anon 2, your scriptural references may illustrate the fact that many women lead holier lives with greater devotion to Christ than do most men. I'm not sure whether it's still so, but when I was young, it seemed clear that girls were generally more devoted to the Eucharist than were boys. When nuns still had a high visibility, they generally appeared to be more pious and devoted than many or most priests.<br /><br />But granting all this, I don't understand what you think it has to do with service at the altar of sacrifice. Boys are not generally call to serve because they are conspicuously holy, nor rejected because they are not.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-56054810796786419902015-01-16T09:14:40.902-05:002015-01-16T09:14:40.902-05:00Anon 10:05 - I don't agree that the gender of...Anon 10:05 - I don't agree that the gender of altar servers is a doctrinal matter. Nor do I agree that having girls serve at the altar is an "abuse."<br /><br />If having girls serve is such a threat to the proper reverence due for the Real Presence in the Eucharist, then popes would have forbidden the practice.<br /><br />It is no threat; hence, popes have approved the practice.Fr. Michael J. Kavanaughnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-5387305598603153372015-01-16T07:57:48.944-05:002015-01-16T07:57:48.944-05:00Anonymous 2,
I'm afraid we don't understa...Anonymous 2,<br /><br />I'm afraid we don't understand your question. I have not said girls should be kept out of the sanctuary, only that they should not be altar servers. It's not a question of location, but of function. When a girl receives Holy Communion, she is as close as anyone can be to Christ during a celebration of the Holy Mass. Therefore, proximity to Christ does not seem to be in question. Rood Screenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09816036539243214384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-60109487991246298002015-01-16T06:19:38.726-05:002015-01-16T06:19:38.726-05:00Anon 2, I think your question is irrelevant. The a...Anon 2, I think your question is irrelevant. The actions of women with regard to Christ, their presence and devotion to Him, have nothing to do with the issue at hand other than in a sentimental way. My dog loves me and is loyal, but I don't want him to be in Congress….hmmmm…wait a minute…let me re-think the thing about the dog.Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-90039799762310969632015-01-15T23:50:42.604-05:002015-01-15T23:50:42.604-05:00On the subject of altar girls I did not receive an...On the subject of altar girls I did not receive an answer to some questions I posed in an earlier thread on this subject (on Misogyny, January 13). I would very much like to get an answer to these questions as they perplex and trouble me, even if that answer is to explain why they are astoundingly stupid.<br /><br />Specifically, in response to a post from JBS suggesting that only men should be permitted in the sanctuary because “[t]he Holy Mass is the manly presentation of Calvary to the same ecclesial bride [the Catholic Church]” I asked: Where were the Apostles when Jesus was crucified at Calvary and then buried? Where were the women followers of Jesus? Or does it depend on which Gospel one chooses?<br /><br /><br />As I explained then, I am genuinely perplexed about the significance of the relevant Gospel passages for the current discussion, and indeed of others that seem to demonstrate the pivotal (and for the times apparently counter-cultural) role of women during Jesus’s ministry.<br />Anonymous 2noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-73289569417332883592015-01-15T22:05:01.242-05:002015-01-15T22:05:01.242-05:00Father Kavanaugh,
I will post here what I posted ...Father Kavanaugh,<br /><br />I will post here what I posted on the other thread to share my thoughts on the discussion:<br /><br />You said, “I do not agree that it [altar girls] should be a cause for worry, since it is not a doctrinal issue. St. Pope John Paul II and Benedict 16 did not find it something to worry about.” Ah, hyper papalism! Is Papal practice, opinion, silence or non-silence about an issue the ultimate barometer about our silence or reaction to doctrinal issues? Father, there is danger in what you are claiming about such. The Pope, yes, he has a very important place in our faith, but please, do not place him as a demi god, whose ordinary actions or silence counts as theology. Heaven forbid! This is what people do to the current Pontiff. St. John Paul did not find altar girls as something to worry about? Really, are you aware that when St. John Paul issued the permission for that ABUSE of altar girls, he was insistent that the tradition of exclusive male service at the altar BE FOSTERED as he believed it has a link to the promotion of vocations? The Holy See said “that it will always be very appropriate to follow the noble tradition of having boys serve at the altar. As is well known, this has led to a reassuring development of priestly vocations. Thus the obligation to support such groups of altar boys will always continue” (see http://www.ewtn.com/library/curia/cdwcomm.htm)<br /><br />As for Pope Benedict being silent (to be exact, he did not RE-AFFIRM THE DECISION, he was just silent about it) about the issue of altar girls or should we say other modern Popes being too silent about other controversial issues, are we to tell ourselves that such silence should settle the matter and we too should be silent about the whole thing? Ah think again. Did you hear Pope Benedict speaking explicitly about the use of lay ministers? Nope. Nada. Should we therefore say that he likes or approves of their use? Can we not react and plead that they be abolished? What about St. John Paul, did he speak publicly about communion on the hand? Nope. What about liturgical dance? You see in John Paul’s time, Piero Marini had a lot of those awful dances during the Mass itself and John Paul never spoke against those, therefore should we have liturgical dances in our sanctuaries? And all those Father, all those are matters of tradition with a small T! Mind you! The same is also true with altar girls, yes, it is a matter of tradition with a small T! But as I was saying, there is a link between dogma and the culture that it has spawned. Altar girls ARE AN ABUSE, ABUSE! AN ABUSE! It is a product of the liberal-Protestant, horizontal, egalitarian heretical tendencies that has tried to corrupt our sanctuaries and our Divine worship.<br /><br />PBdCAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-43532256366782737912015-01-15T18:32:24.100-05:002015-01-15T18:32:24.100-05:00John - I have no idea why the shift was not made c...John - I have no idea why the shift was not made clear all along.<br /><br />Maybe it wasn't clear in the minds of the people making the decisions.<br /><br />Maybe it is a unintended consequence, a felicitous one in my book, though I know not in yours.<br /><br />Maybe 1972 was deemed, by Paul VI, to be "too early" to open the non-ordained but instituted ministries to women.<br /><br />I don't know, and I don't think you do, either.<br /><br />Fr. Michael J. Kavanaughnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-72802131726603189602015-01-15T18:19:59.723-05:002015-01-15T18:19:59.723-05:00WSquared, my parish has it that way (boys in casso...WSquared, my parish has it that way (boys in cassock and surplice, girls in alb), as does another parish nearby. I definitely feel that, for as long as we *do* have girl servers, that's the way to go. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-11043111883184840562015-01-15T18:16:44.290-05:002015-01-15T18:16:44.290-05:00Fr.Alan...do you really mean that you "unthin...Fr.Alan...do you really mean that you "unthinkingly respond" on this blog?<br /><br />BTW, I looked at it today. The last time was a couple of months ago. yikesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-8257755059273536222015-01-15T17:33:05.564-05:002015-01-15T17:33:05.564-05:00One parish I went to actually had altar boys and a...One parish I went to actually had altar boys and altar girls-- but the priest in charge made sure that they were dressed differently. The boys wore cassock and surplice; the girls wore alb (much like many altar girls do now) with a sash that matched the color of the boys' cassocks (usually red). <br /><br />I honestly don't know beans about what altar servers should be wearing, other than I like seeing altar boys wear the cassock and surplice, period. But, that difference in dress is certainly <i>one</i> way to distinguish boys and girls while allowing them both to serve at the altar, no?WSquarednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-64213357677452602015-01-15T17:23:16.809-05:002015-01-15T17:23:16.809-05:00'We have come to understand that Baptism, not ...'We have come to understand that Baptism, not Ordination, is the foundation for ministry - any ministry - in the Church' (Father Kavanaugh). But if the decision to allow female servers was due to a theological shift in the post-Conciliar Church, why was this not made clear all along? Why was the decision left to the bishops to make for 'pastoral' (not theological) reasons? Why weren't the non-ordained ministries established by Paul VI in 1972 (Lector and Acolyte) opened to women in recognition that a new theology now obtained? <br /><br />Twenty years on, and the Church is still divided over the issue, which in itself suggests that even the guarded permission given in 1994 was a mistake. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br />John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-15180878560260261422015-01-15T16:47:36.619-05:002015-01-15T16:47:36.619-05:00Cletus Ordo,
I can assure you that the Catholic p...Cletus Ordo,<br /><br />I can assure you that the Catholic population and in my Southern diocese and in neighboring diocese is strong, although it is less than 10% of the population. We are building new churches as often as Northern dioceses close theirs, and our ratio of seminarians to the Catholic population is one of the best in the nation. My parish has only 100 households, but we have four young Catholics associated with us who are in seminaries or convents. There are at least six locations in the diocese where the EF Mass is offered on a regular basis, despite the fact that we have fewer than 50 parishes and sixty diocesan priests. Etc.Rood Screenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09816036539243214384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-57784848444011687642015-01-15T16:31:27.122-05:002015-01-15T16:31:27.122-05:00JBS, as you have pointed out elsewhere, the deepes...JBS, as you have pointed out elsewhere, the deepest and most spiritual form of participation in Holy Mass is the mystical personal union with Our Lord that is achieved by the reception of holy communion. No girl or boy of any age who lives from Sunday to Sunday (or even from day to day) in eager anticipation of this personal communion requires anything more or less in the way of participation. He or she need only kneel in the pew or at the altar rail, and no external form of participation can add anything to the depth of this intimate personal union with Christ Himself. <br /><br />Altar girls may not detract from belief in the Real Presence, but the insistence that girls must be allowed to serve at the altar to participate fully is surely a symptom of diminished belief. To wit, the testimony of one former altar girl:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.onepeterfive.com/should-girls-serve-at-the-altar-a-former-altar-girl-weighs-in/" rel="nofollow"><b>Should girls serve at the altar? A former altar girl weighs in.</b></a>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-72100430578434605112015-01-15T15:09:43.136-05:002015-01-15T15:09:43.136-05:00YIKES, that could be said of you also for surfing ...YIKES, that could be said of you also for surfing this blog, no? Some hobbies take a few moments to unthinkingly respond. Other hobbies, like fishing are too expensive and take way too much time. Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.com