tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post5915652157428238365..comments2024-03-28T20:30:10.681-04:00Comments on southern orders: I AM NOT A TRADITIONALIST; I AM A CATHOLIC AND SO IS THE DEACON BELOW, GOOD QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS!Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-76600376310273805342011-10-11T23:15:47.756-04:002011-10-11T23:15:47.756-04:00After thinking about it, I've come to the conc...After thinking about it, I've come to the conclusion that there isn't anything really wrong with the 1970 missal per se - my problem with it is that it was totally unnecessary. A completely needless change causing disunity that could have easily been avoided. Everything good accomplished by the Novus Ordo could have been just as easily accomplished within the framework of the Tridentine Mass.<br /><br />A Tridentine Mass with looser rubrics, a few extra options in addition to the traditional ones (like the new EPs, for example), and a larger lectionary would have appeased pretty much everyone:<br /><br />Celebrate the old Mass in English facing the people with contemporary music and you appease the "progressive" liturgists.<br /><br />Celebrate it in Latin in a traditional way, and you would likely have appeased any traditionalists with reservations about the liturgical reform.<br /><br />Celebrate it in Elizabethan English in a traditional manner and you would have a ready-made liturgy for many of the incoming high-church Anglicans.<br /><br />It was a totally missed opportunity.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-23678669596960985542011-10-11T00:13:33.635-04:002011-10-11T00:13:33.635-04:00No question you've been blessed, Father...than...No question you've been blessed, Father...thank God for it!<br />You've been granted the great privilege of learning and celebrating a very reverent mass. And the laity who serve at such masses are privileged indeed. <br />It is so discouraging, to many folks I know (and many who participate in your blog here), that the faithful are deadened by those who would rather experiment with than care for souls. It occurs at every level. Call me a congregationalist (I've been called worse), call me what you wish, but when the mark of a good priest is blind obedience to wrong-headed thinking/behaving, something is terribly wrong. The mission of the Church is to save souls, not drive them elsewhere...Ave Verumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12080472021709184171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-19531931095489361122011-10-10T19:32:37.952-04:002011-10-10T19:32:37.952-04:00Well, Fr, anything you might do at St. Jo's wo...Well, Fr, anything you might do at St. Jo's would be well within the limits of the traditional and appropriate, not to mention (if I read correctly some of the other posts regarding the Vat II intention and actual documents)in keeping with the true spirit of Vat II. You and a few others are exceptions, but it seems to me that the Novus Ordo has invited nothing but "private practice" on the part of Priests. Perhaps you should raise these issues with the new Bishop. You are a very persuasive fellow and tactful (mostly) to a fault. I'm sure you know the limits and would never push them in a rebellious way, but if good Priests like you do not speak up the more aggressive acting out Priests will never shut up.Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-9489629562521577982011-10-10T18:34:20.313-04:002011-10-10T18:34:20.313-04:00Perhaps I've been blessed but every parish tha...Perhaps I've been blessed but every parish that I've been since being ordained has had the Ordinary Form of the Mass celebrated in a dignified and reverent way but always following what the rest of the diocese is doing in terms of the common chalice, standing to receive Holy Communion and active participation. I have found these celebrations life-giving and reverent. I have found most of the participants reverent also. This Mass has also produced many priests and holy people. With that said, I realize there is room for improvement, but we can't move ahead in a Protestant congregationalist way independent of our bishop and the bishops he is in union with including foremost the Holy Father. As Bishop Lessard use to tell me, priests aren't in private practice and I think that also extends to individual Catholics and parishes.Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-6087350410235882672011-10-10T18:22:14.090-04:002011-10-10T18:22:14.090-04:00The theology of the Eucharist, the Sacrifice, is r...The theology of the Eucharist, the Sacrifice, is radically different from the "meal" concept. We participate in Christ's death and resurrection and He fills us with his living Spirit and draws us ever nearer to Him and the bodily resurrection life He has promised to the Faithful. This is life and death stuff, and I am happy to notice that some in our RCIA classes are having that "Aha" experience, having come without exception from "meal" theological traditions. The prots "remember" Christ...they "memorialize" Him...sort of like John Doe who lived on your block and died and everybody remembers him kindly, gently pities him, and says nice things. But John Doe is dead...I mean like, dead, dead, dead. None of us, except perhaps Priests and nuns and monks, contemplate the momentousness of the Sacrifice and the power of the Eucharist nearly enough. This is the first thing that leaped out at me when I came from the Calvinist tradition, the power of the Real Presence. It must be preserved and insisted upon in the Liturgy.Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-74334457713474547002011-10-10T17:16:51.647-04:002011-10-10T17:16:51.647-04:00The meal emphasis was specifically to appease and ...The meal emphasis was specifically to appease and woo protestants. It was all a part of the Committee on Church Union (COCU...not so affectionately known as Coo Coo in my seminary days)plan for some great honking ecumenical utopia to be brought about by all those wormy looking need-a-bath-and-a-haircut-sissy seminarians and their Patchouli stinking, granola munching, earth biscuit seminarian girlfriends. God deliver us!<br /><br />You can bet if you hear a Priest consistently referring to the "meal" or the "communal supper" he is one of their ilk.Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-82700428995451661262011-10-10T16:50:23.975-04:002011-10-10T16:50:23.975-04:00@ Andy: Great post! This is almost exactly what ...@ Andy: Great post! This is almost exactly what I was going to post, but stated much better than I would have stated it.Marchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13510317669833026685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-74549558584770150682011-10-10T16:43:32.066-04:002011-10-10T16:43:32.066-04:00Ave, I can only wonder how many felt that way and ...Ave, I can only wonder how many felt that way and how many will return when the forty years ends this Advent? <br /><br />Reminds me of a C. S. Lewis quote that gets me through a clown mass of liturgical dancers: <br /><br />He cannot 'tempt' to virtue as we do to vice. He wants them to learn to walk and must therefore take away His hand; and if only the will to walk is really there He is pleased even with their stumbles. Do not be deceived, Wormwood. Our cause is never more in danger than when a human, no longer desiring, but still intending, to do our Enemy's will, looks round upon a universe from which every trace of Him seems to have vanished, and asks why he has been forsaken, and still obeys.<br /><br />rcgAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-48497366362824819442011-10-10T16:21:11.433-04:002011-10-10T16:21:11.433-04:00@Fr. Shelton..
The Title of the article.
Second,...@Fr. Shelton..<br /><br />The Title of the article.<br /><br />Second, I guess as I look at what you say, you're absolutely right, the Holy Father should not be the author of a Mass. However, that is more or less what happened with the Pauline Missal. I think that the contrivance of the Missal (1970 & revisions) is man made. Insofar as that is the case, can't the argument be made that it should be scrapped and the Mass which developed over 1600 years and codified by a Council be restored? I would think that you would have to agree 100%, using your logic.<br /><br />If the Novus Ordo is born out of Tradition, then the radical differences with regard to Theology wouldn't exist as they do. How do we reconcile the celebrant v. presider mentality? How do we reconcile the meal v. sacrifice mentality? Then there are the other issues language v. translation? Diversity v. unity? and there are any other number of things which lead to the idea that the Novus Ordo is a rupturous path as opposed to a continuous one.<br /><br />I also think that validity isn't an issue. Something can be valid and harmful...look at some instances of how Confession is administered...many "Form II" Penance services are not ideal, but they are valid.<br /><br />Bottom line, I do think that your point is important, but probably not for the same reasons.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03009356356243871772noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-33147346520952288252011-10-10T14:05:55.774-04:002011-10-10T14:05:55.774-04:00Father Shelton, I absolutely agree with you! Twas...Father Shelton, I absolutely agree with you! Twas the Holy Spirit who "authored" our Divine Liturgy; the Holy Father is/should be the guardian and he leads by example!Ave Verumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12080472021709184171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-76373532346821630022011-10-10T12:58:17.674-04:002011-10-10T12:58:17.674-04:00He is a Monk, and a Doctor, and a Published Liturg...He is a Monk, and a Doctor, and a Published Liturgist of world wide repute. He is considerably more qualified to speak on Liturgical Matters than most of the Priests I have encountered in my life.Templarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18204866760862707908noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-38473923521604784882011-10-10T12:47:35.237-04:002011-10-10T12:47:35.237-04:00I may be missing something, but where does it say ...I may be missing something, but where does it say he's a priest? He speaks with authority here as a liturgical historian.Rood Screenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09816036539243214384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-28156230976835778912011-10-10T12:46:59.836-04:002011-10-10T12:46:59.836-04:00Well, if the Priests and Bishops won't say it,...Well, if the Priests and Bishops won't say it, somebody needs to. Let's have more Deacons just like him.Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-88776190676836380912011-10-10T12:44:34.546-04:002011-10-10T12:44:34.546-04:00If we throw away the new (1970+) Roman missal, or ...If we throw away the new (1970+) Roman missal, or if a pope or papal committee redesigns its rubrics, then we will still have the same problem: man-made liturgy. The only way out of our Western liturgical troubles is organic development born from close dialogue with Christ and under the gentle inspiration of the Holy Ghost. As ecumenical efforts with the Orthodox are teaching us, the particular form of the sacred liturgy should not depend upon the personal preference of a reigning pope. The pope should be the guardian of the liturgical forms, not their author.Rood Screenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09816036539243214384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-68828267047781668082011-10-10T12:30:48.209-04:002011-10-10T12:30:48.209-04:00Excellent article about what happened to us...than...Excellent article about what happened to us...thanks for posting it, Father. I actually lived through all of that as a new Catholic; I converted at age 16 in 1963 and my little back-water parish knew nothing of V-II. When all the changes hit, I was in college in N.Y., confused and finally exasperated by all of it! The liturgy that had called to me as a teen, and was my focus, nourishing a new spirituality, no longer inspired or nourished. I began to feel that the Church I had studied and converted to was fundamentally different, the liturgy was unrecognizable and I felt betrayed. I left for a time, then returned, but never felt the same. I now live in an area with FIVE (yes, 5, one of which you served, Father!) large Catholic parishes, and NO access to the liturgy that has always lived in my heart. Those of us who long for it were allowed access ONE time only, then the Bishop himself shut it down. We have been ridiculed and scorned by a succession of priests, by their staff and by some "progressive" laity. <br /><br />Because of all this nonsense, and now that children have moved on, the Eastern Catholic liturgy calls my name. There is no confusion, no angst... instead, true reverence, joy and peace. Thank you, God for Your faithfulness and mercy.Ave Verumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12080472021709184171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-4855867143168021482011-10-10T12:10:50.635-04:002011-10-10T12:10:50.635-04:00I don't mean to quibble, because I thoroughly ...I don't mean to quibble, because I thoroughly agree with Dr. Reid on this, but he isn't a priest. He's a deacon. It's sticky, but he isn't a priest. The diocese in Australia to which he was attached refused priestly ordination.<br /><br />Like I said, I think that the article is wonderful, it just must be noted that Dr. Reid isn't a priest.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03009356356243871772noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-43622052326242026482011-10-10T11:28:12.958-04:002011-10-10T11:28:12.958-04:00THIS is precisely why good Catholics are frustrate...THIS is precisely why good Catholics are frustrated. Everyone of intelligence and honesty agrees that what was intended at V2 was renewal and not creation, yet what we got is creation and rupture. Clearly it was wrong, clearly it remains wrong, so THROW IT AWAY. You can not reform a fallen souffle, you must start again.Templarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18204866760862707908noreply@blogger.com