tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post5867202185590712188..comments2024-03-28T20:30:10.681-04:00Comments on southern orders: CARING FOR THE POOR AND THE CATHOLIC CHURCH'S FIRST PRIORITYFr. Allan J. McDonaldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comBlogger40125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-42575797360876244522013-09-21T12:35:09.003-04:002013-09-21T12:35:09.003-04:00If I love my neighbor and am serving my neighbor, ...If I love my neighbor and am serving my neighbor, then I am also loving and serving God.<br /><br />I don't hold the position that if I am loving and serving my neighbor then I am adoring and worshiping God. God can only be adored and worshiped as the direct object of my worship and adoration.<br /><br />On these TWO commandments hang all the Law and the prophets. Two not ONE. Not even TWOFOLD.<br /><br />One can take the position "single commandment of love" in the wrong way. That is, I'm doing the second part, therefore that completely satisfies the first part. How many in our own time take it this way<br />his way.<br /><br />One position I do hold though is that if anything I say do or write is in opposition to Church teaching<br />then let it be as nothing...let it be as less than nothing.Georgenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-14878094013626990672013-09-19T18:25:16.035-04:002013-09-19T18:25:16.035-04:00Pin/Gene - As any Catholic knows, the Church teach...Pin/Gene - As any Catholic knows, the Church teaches the meaning of the Scriptures.<br /><br />In this regard, the Church teaches "CCC 2055: When someone asks him, "Which commandment in the Law is the greatest?" Jesus replies: "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the greatest and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the prophets." The Decalogue must be interpreted in light of this twofold yet single commandment of love, the fullness of the Law."<br /><br />Whatever your purposes, your distinction between the two parts of the "single commandment of love" is contrary to the Church's understanding.<br /><br />As always, I stand with the Church.Pater Ignotusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-31942346894955165272013-09-18T17:20:12.158-04:002013-09-18T17:20:12.158-04:00Here is another perpective.
Take all of the Americ...Here is another perpective.<br />Take all of the American Saints and blesseds. They were for the most part engaged in teaching and catechizing. That was their primary mission. Other than the ones who were contmplatives or mystics. Condider that they were operating in times where there was little assistance for the poor. St Elizabeth Seton, St Katherine Drexel.Mother Cabrini(not American born though), the North American Martyrs, and I could go on. Not that<br />they did not try in some way to provide for the bodily needs of the poor also.<br />This is still true today with the religious congregations that are thriving such as the Dominican sisters in Michigan and Nashville.<br />The other orders that are thriving are the Contemplatives.<br />The orders that are and were most focused on social needs are for the most part the ones dying off.<br />Africa also makes a good case in point where many of the people over there have almost nothing compared to those over here but where the Catholic faith is thriving.Georgenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-66916776217036589642013-09-18T14:05:33.823-04:002013-09-18T14:05:33.823-04:00"Which commandment is the first of all?"..."Which commandment is the first of all?"<br />Mark 12:29-31: "Jesus answered, "The first is, 'Hear, O Israel, The Lord our God, the Lord is one; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart,and with all your soul , and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' The second is this, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these.<br />Note the emphasis upon the first and the clear distinction between the two separate commandments.<br /><br />Need to work on that reading comprehension Ignotus...also on the theology a bit, as well.<br />Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-64083536741671268642013-09-18T10:31:56.346-04:002013-09-18T10:31:56.346-04:00The Two Commandments are not separate commandments...The Two Commandments are not separate commandments or separate ideas that are "linked." They are a "twofold yet single commandment of love."<br /><br />Pater Ignotusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-7950087685306685852013-09-18T02:49:24.371-04:002013-09-18T02:49:24.371-04:00All the comments here could definitely precipitate...All the comments here could definitely precipitate much further Theological reflection.<br /><br /> "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the greatest and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law ...<br /><br />The two commandments above are linked but there is no equivalency between the two. As Jesus said about the first-it is the greatest.<br /><br />And yet one flows from the other...<br /><br />It is interesting that Jesus did not say "You should likwise (or in a like manner) love your neighbor".<br /><br /><br />I think about the line from the Act of Contrition<br />"but most of all because I have offended Thee, O Lord, Who are all good and deserving of ALL my love<br /><br />Love your neighbor as yourself? Be solicitous to your impoverished neighbors needs as you are to your own needs.<br />Pray for your neighbors above all. Yes.<br /><br />"He causes his prayers to be of more avail to himself, who offers them also for others."<br />-St Gregory the Great<br /><br />St Germaine de Pribac's life was meagerness itself. <br /><br />Her favorite prayer was: "Dear God, please don't let me be too hungry or too thirsty. Help me to please my mother. And help me to please you." (She suffered great abuse at the hands of her mother)<br /><br />As it has been written about her:<br /><br />She shared all she had in love and charity. What little food she had more often than not were given to those less fortunate than her. Her clothing, thin and unsuitable for the cold winters, could be found on the shoulders of those she encountered, she, herself, preferring to go cold than watch another suffer.<br /><br />Serving the poor is woven throughout the lives of many of the saints.<br /><br />Yet this was not something to be noted in and of itself but flowed from their profound devotion to God.<br /><br />Today, it is is spiritual poverty, not material poverty which constitutes the greatest need<br /><br /><br /><br />Georgenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-62101997444526582462013-09-17T14:11:02.586-04:002013-09-17T14:11:02.586-04:00CCC 2055 is not addressing the same issue I was di...CCC 2055 is not addressing the same issue I was discussing. I have said all I have to say on the issue. If you are too dense to comprehend it, too bad.Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-17710270495760728032013-09-17T11:19:00.502-04:002013-09-17T11:19:00.502-04:00Gene: You said "Libs want to answer both and ...Gene: You said "Libs want to answer both and but that is not the question." That is where you apparently refused to admit it. I challenged that and suggested it wasn't just "Libs" who would urge both/and.Anonymous 2noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-28323380776373836822013-09-17T10:54:38.822-04:002013-09-17T10:54:38.822-04:00CCC 2055 "The Decalogue must be interpreted i...CCC 2055 "The Decalogue must be interpreted in light of this twofold yet single commandment of love, the fullness of the Law."<br /><br />This is not two commandments, but one. Its unity reflects the mystery of the Incarnation - Jesus was not two persons, but one.<br /><br />One part of the commandment is not "distinct" from the other. Pater Ignotusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-9595901673500160352013-09-17T05:53:47.329-04:002013-09-17T05:53:47.329-04:00Where did I refuse to admit it? Because one thing ...Where did I refuse to admit it? Because one thing is primary does not mean another is excluded. Christian works go without saying, but they are fruits of belief and salvation and are not causative of salvation.Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-67677201329911070282013-09-17T00:29:04.534-04:002013-09-17T00:29:04.534-04:00Gene: I think we can all understand the theologica...Gene: I think we can all understand the theological issues of priorities. Your point was obscure. You did not clearly ask whether belief or works are primary. It is elementary that belief is primary and that works flow from belief. So, yes, eternal life is more important than social welfare programs. But of course this is not inconsistent with having both belief AND works, eternal life AND social welfare programs/soup kitchens, which is the option you apparently refused to admit. It was that apparent refusal that we were challenging.Anonymous 2noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-3157616483260663932013-09-16T18:17:52.176-04:002013-09-16T18:17:52.176-04:00Two commandments...one...two. The first, and prima...Two commandments...one...two. The first, and primary, is belief...you can only love God with all your heart if you believe in Him.<br />The second, and distinct, commandment of Christ in this verse is to "love your neighbor as yourself." There is a theological order here, Ignotus.<br />One cannot love one's neighbor properly without belief in God and the understanding of self and neighbor that derives from that understanding. <br />Belief is theologically primary because it guards against the progressivist schemes based upon humanistic principles that reverse the order and place human effort above belief and repentance. Indeed, they bypass belief altogether because it isn't necessary for the "Jesus ethics" crowd. All you gotta' do is be nice and try to act like you think Jesus would all the time...you know, take a black person to lunch, march in some silly peace mob, count dolphins, eat tofu, vote for Obammy. You know, like that.Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-77886127429807010452013-09-16T14:30:05.211-04:002013-09-16T14:30:05.211-04:00CCC 2055: When someone asks him, "Which comm...CCC 2055: When someone asks him, "Which commandment in the Law is the greatest?" Jesus replies: "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the greatest and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the prophets." The Decalogue must be interpreted in light of this twofold yet single commandment of love, the fullness of the Law."<br /><br />Single, yet twofold commandment. Love of God and Love of others.<br /><br />Both/And is the implementation of the words of Jesus and the teaching of the Church. It is, despite your opposition, the answer to the question you pose.Pater Ignotusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-61815927994045242562013-09-16T07:14:15.660-04:002013-09-16T07:14:15.660-04:00Are you two people really that incapable of unders...Are you two people really that incapable of understanding the theological issue of priorities? Also, can you simply not read. I said that "both/and" is not an option. This is a theological issue. My point is that, theologically, belief is primary and the logically necessary and sufficient cause for worship and giving God the praise that is his due. Biblically, the salvation of souls is the primary purpose for Christ's Incarnation. <br />Belief in Him is the necessary cause for salvation. It is the theological premise for everything else. Now, see, that was't too hard.<br />And, no, the question is in no way similar to "can God make a stone so heavy He can't lift it." That is a logical contradiction and it is meaningless to posit logical contradictions as a part of the nature of God.<br />It is not a logical contradiction to ask whether belief or works are PRIMARY for salvation. <br />Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-22666862622943090122013-09-15T20:18:41.556-04:002013-09-15T20:18:41.556-04:00So, why not make it the question, Gene? As in:
“I...So, why not make it the question, Gene? As in:<br /><br />“Is it better for one to die well fed and with money in his pocket AND saved, or is it better for one to die poor and hungry but saved?”<br /><br />BTW I think you are wrong to imply that only progressives/liberals prefer the first alternative. Thus, I imagine you hope to answer that description yourself?Amonymous 2noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-74078699612522159322013-09-15T17:39:31.469-04:002013-09-15T17:39:31.469-04:00Pin/Gene - The question you ask contains a false d...Pin/Gene - The question you ask contains a false dichotomy. It is similar to "Have you stopped beating your wife?" or "Can God make a boulder so large that He cannot lift it?" <br /><br />Your questions is based on the erroneous premise that one must die EITHER "hungry but saved" OR "well fed but unsaved." <br /><br />The answer, which you think you can avoid, is "both and" indeed.Pater Ignotusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-10254080047053289132013-09-15T11:44:36.241-04:002013-09-15T11:44:36.241-04:00The question progressives refuse to answer: "...The question progressives refuse to answer: "Is it better for one to die poor and hungry but saved, or is it better for one to die well fed and with money in his pocket but<br />unsaved? Libs want to answer "both and," but that is not the question. So, which is more important...eternal life or social welfare programs? Preaching the Gospel of repentance and salvation, or working in a soup kitchen? <br />Hearing Confessions and taking Communion to the sick and in prison, or working down at Have A Crap For Humanity? This is a forced answer test.Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-12986100829127933392013-09-15T10:20:23.599-04:002013-09-15T10:20:23.599-04:00What I am confused about is, what is the definitio...What I am confused about is, what is the definition of this phrase being used by the pope, "the poor"?<br /><br />When I read his statements, I automatically assume by "the poor", he is referring to the poor in spirit, that is, those with no faith, weak faith, incomplete faith (protestants and jews), or incorrect faith (pagan religions like buddism, hinduism, scientology, etc)<br /><br />But it seems most other people assume he means poor in wealth/material goods, that is those in poverty and the starving.<br /><br />But he could also mean poor in health, the sick and dying.<br /><br />Or the socially poor, the lonely, the shy, those without friends, those being bullied.<br /><br />Or the follically poor, the bald.<br /><br />Or the vertically poor, midgets and dwarfs.<br /><br />See, that's the problem with Francis, he uses sweeping, general phrases, but never explains them. Does he mean one of the above, all of the above, none of the above? He is truely a student of Vatican II in that regard. Until he specifically clairfies, I will assume whenever he speaks of "the poor", he is referring to the poor in spirit, since he is a religious leader and the Church's first priority is saving souls (sorry to disagree with you, Father). And to the majority of those who assume he means the poor in wealth/material goods...well, I'll just sit back with some popcorn and enjoy the show.Jacobnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-4490262181372270062013-09-15T07:28:18.209-04:002013-09-15T07:28:18.209-04:00Anonymous, We cannot give God the worship that is ...Anonymous, We cannot give God the worship that is his due unless we know Him and believe in Him. Belief is primary and prior to worship. We worship Him and give Him the praise that is His due because He has redeemed us and promised us eternal life if we obey and worship Him properly. "I have come to seek and to save those who are lost."Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-73720121797168304792013-09-14T20:08:12.737-04:002013-09-14T20:08:12.737-04:00The corporal works of mercy:
•To feed the hungry...The corporal works of mercy: <br /><br />•To feed the hungry; <br />•To give drink to the thirsty; <br />•To clothe the naked; <br />•To harbour the harbourless; <br />•To visit the sick; <br />•To ransom the captive; <br />•To bury the dead. <br /><br />Other than aiding the homeless (which of course should be done), the first 4 of these have been taken over almost totally by the government(I speak of here in the U.S.). Now I do realize the problem of poverty is too large of a challenge to be handled by Churches alone.<br />The thing is, the poor in this country receive government help to such an extent that all the necessities are provided. <br />If you want to do the first four,you end up having to contribute to those organizations working im countries outside the US where there does exist dire, abject poverty. If there are those doing without in this country, they are not availing themselves of the help that is available and that's<br />in addition to the Salvation Army, St Vincent DePaul, Goodwill and other such organizations.<br /> <br /> <br /><br />What the poor have in America:<br /><br />http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/terence-p-jeffrey/census-americans-poverty-typically-have-cell-phones-computers-tvs<br /><br />Spiritual Poverty? Yes, that is a much bigger problemGeorgenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-46085089018557257432013-09-14T18:13:17.529-04:002013-09-14T18:13:17.529-04:00"[S]aving your soul is the primary reason for..."[S]aving your soul is the primary reason for religion." No. The primary reason for religion is to give to God the worship that is His due.<br />- AncilPayneAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-76662160610624206502013-09-14T17:24:06.061-04:002013-09-14T17:24:06.061-04:00Ignotus, once again you reveal that you know littl...Ignotus, once again you reveal that you know little or nothing about Biblical theology, particularly NT theology. You don't know much about "social justice," either. You are really such a tool.Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-26629786297114871762013-09-14T16:12:40.475-04:002013-09-14T16:12:40.475-04:00Good grief, I see ponytails again, please please p...Good grief, I see ponytails again, please please please boys only, girls and women have no place at the Holy Altar. This does not promote vocations boys want to serve with other boys, not giggling girls.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-80165692683374941102013-09-14T15:36:42.302-04:002013-09-14T15:36:42.302-04:00Anything can become an idol and false god – anythi...Anything can become an idol and false god – anything – including the poor, both the material poor and the spiritual poor. The key to avoiding the idolatry is to see the object of one’s concern in proper relation to God. Whether the poor are viewed as individual poor or as a group does not seem to be the key. At the risk of breaking my nose again (Gene will explain this to puzzled readers), isn’t the key in the passage quoted by Pater?:"The King will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.'" <br /><br />I am not saying that it is an accurate perception, but all this carping about Pope Francis’s emphasis upon the poor could very easily be perceived by unfriendly readers/visitors of this Blog as the kind of hard-hearted lack of compassion with which certain elements of the political Right are often charged. Such a perception would be unfortunate and does the traditionalist cause little good. <br />Anonymous 2noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-83871467952124711272013-09-14T15:31:44.601-04:002013-09-14T15:31:44.601-04:00Anon 12 - The first "Social Justice" Chu...Anon 12 - The first "Social Justice" Churchman was Jesus who said, "You give them something to eat."<br /><br />Or "The young man said to Him, "All these commands I have kept; what am I still lacking?" Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."<br /><br />Or "When you give a dinner or a banquet, do not invite your friends or your brothers or your kinsmen or rich neighbors, lest they also invite you in return, and you be repaid. But when you give a feast, invite the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind, and you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you. You will be repaid at the resurrection of the just."<br /><br />I think Jesus precedes Judas in his concern for social justice. And Pope Francis is stirring things up by reminding us just how far from the mark we are in this.Pater Ignotusnoreply@blogger.com