tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post4953943635821938261..comments2024-03-28T05:17:04.006-04:00Comments on southern orders: VATICAN II PROPERLY UNDERSTOOD AND IMPLEMENTED IS A BLESSING FROM GOD TO THE CHURCHFr. Allan J. McDonaldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comBlogger22125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-79775320375992028712011-04-22T12:14:08.805-04:002011-04-22T12:14:08.805-04:00In my opinion, the Diocese suffered under Lessard,...In my opinion, the Diocese suffered under Lessard, but it was not really his fault, and his successor has not done much better. At least Lessard was a kind, pious, and learned man. In his (and the yes man he replaced - Frey's) diocese, traditionalists had no place to worship. Traditional elements of Catholic piety and worship, art and architecture were removed. Sacramentals were no longer encourged. Catholic school teachers (except for isolated instances such as the saintly Sr. Gilbert) stopped teaching the Catholic faith. Sexual immorality became rampant among the kids. But I guess Lessard, as we all were, was, in a strange sense, as much a victim as anyone of the attitude inherent in the laughable statement that the ancient liturgy was never "abrogated." No disrespect to the successor of Peter intended. Once, ordinary folks could see the names of their ancestors, like proverbial stones in the walls of the church. The illusion that the Church is a family is gone. The Church is almost dead in Europe, the English speaking Church is riddled with scandal, but seemingly there is no one to blame but "liberals." ...It was conservative men who destroyed much of the Catholic Church, not women, not nuns, not gays - men who sought power over faith - men who jostled for power at any cost, men who loved power more than justice.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-78699307051931921922011-02-24T12:55:25.763-05:002011-02-24T12:55:25.763-05:00In Rerum Novarum, past principles were applied to ...In Rerum Novarum, past principles were applied to the times without, at that time or prospectively, endorsing any political ideology. Unfortunately the written word, with no opportunity for "cross examination," seems to escape nuances and outright abuse. In fact Socialism, by whatever name, was soundly condemned in Paragraph 15: “15. And in addition to injustice, it is only too evident what an upset and disturbance there would be in all classes, and to how intolerable and hateful a slavery citizens would be subjected. The door would be thrown open to envy, to mutual invective, and to discord; the sources of wealth themselves would run dry, for no one would have any interest in exerting his talents or his industry; and that ideal equality about which they entertain pleasant dreams would be in reality the levelling down of all to a like condition of misery and degradation. Hence, it is clear that the main tenet of socialism, community of goods, must be utterly rejected, since it only injures those whom it would seem meant to benefit, is directly contrary to the natural rights of mankind, and would introduce confusion and disorder into the commonweal. The first and most fundamental principle, therefore, if one would undertake to alleviate the condition of the masses, must be the inviolability of private property. This being established, we proceed to show where the remedy sought for must be found.” <br />Church documents, including the Bible, and also our founding documents have really been under fierce attack, especially these last two years.R. E. Alityhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14778574486104661142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-36597669819007458282011-02-23T23:05:01.184-05:002011-02-23T23:05:01.184-05:00Mr. Maurin, you forgot to address the doctrine of ...Mr. Maurin, you forgot to address the doctrine of subsidiarity. The USCCB has apparently forgotten it as well. <br />Also, the various principles/goals you site inarguably exist, but there are moral, constitutional and effective means to proceed and there are immoral, despotic and destructive means to achieve the desired ends. If that hasn't hit you over the head these past two years that the latter has held sway, you are such a slave to ideology that nothing I can say will convert you.R. E. Alityhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14778574486104661142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-50741318061965092872011-02-23T16:04:52.734-05:002011-02-23T16:04:52.734-05:00A "political community" includes, necess...A "political community" includes, necessarily, an electorate AND a government. Or can you find an electorate that doesn't elect anyone?<br /><br />The right to private property is not absolute. Compendium of the Social Doctrine of the Church: #177: Christian tradition has never recognized the right to private property as absolute and untouchable: “On the contrary, it has always understood this right within the broader context of the right common to all to use the goods of the whole of creation: the right to private property is subordinated to the right to common use, to the fact that goods are meant for everyone”[372- Laborem Exercens, no 14]. The principle of the universal destination of goods is an affirmation both of God's full and perennial lordship over every reality and of the requirement that the goods of creation remain ever destined to the development of the whole person and of all humanity[373, Gaudium et Spes, no 69]. This principle is not opposed to the right to private property[374, Rereum Novarum, 102] but indicates the need to regulate it. Private property, in fact, regardless of the concrete forms of the regulations and juridical norms relative to it, is in its essence only an instrument for respecting the principle of the universal destination of goods; in the final analysis, therefore, it is not an end but a means[375, Populorum Progressio, 22-23].Peter Maurinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-45354320665452073602011-02-22T18:44:03.592-05:002011-02-22T18:44:03.592-05:00Mr. Maurin, based on the premise that actions spea...Mr. Maurin, based on the premise that actions speak more loudly than words, tell us for whom you have voted in the presidential elections 1976-2008, and we will know what you have “said” and/or “suggested.”<br />I have re-read CCC sections 1901-1910 and noticed the many things I underlined last time around. The credibility of government action depends upon adherence to the doctrine of subsidiarity which the CCC and encyclicals have clearly set forth.<br />1901 – Note reference to “natural law” which includes the right to private property.<br />1902 – (Govt) must not behave in a despotic manner<br />1903 – if it employs morally licit means to attain it<br />1903 – principle of the rule of law<br />1905 – the good of each individual is necessarily related to the common good<br />1906 - conditions which ALLOW people to reach their fulfillment <br /> 1907 – the common good presupposes respect for the person<br /> respect for inalienable rights (each and all of them)<br /> 1908 – make accessible (as opposed to “provide”)<br /> 1909 - the common good requires peace; that is , the stability and <br /> security of a just order<br /> the right to legitimate personal and collective defence<br />1910 - it says, “political community” not “government,” which could reasonably mean “an educated and informed electorate.”<br />Government ‘s role, pursuant to Church teaching must be subject to and in conformance to the doctrine of subsidiarity. If that doctrine were followed, we wouldn’t be sending DC a $1.00 and getting $. 50, if that, back. There would be no Department of Education and many other bureaucracies sponging off the money that smaller governments and entities could more effectively use for the common good.R. E. Alityhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14778574486104661142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-23895346671664229532011-02-21T08:30:09.050-05:002011-02-21T08:30:09.050-05:00RE - I never suggested the Church supports Sociali...RE - I never suggested the Church supports Socialism or Marxism. I simply stated what the Church has said, authoritatively, about the responsibility we all bear, individually and corporately, for the Common Good.<br /><br />If you want to know about the corporate side of this equation, check out the CCC, esp in sections 1906, which addresses those who exercise the office of authority; 1907, which speaks about the role of public authorities and society; 1908, which addresses social well-being and development as social duties and the proper function of authority (governments); 1909 which speaks to government's role in maintaining the security of a just order, etc.<br /><br />Note especially 1910 which specifically addresses the "political community" as the "most complete realization" of the human community.<br /><br />The notion that care for the poor is uniquely the responsibility of individuals and not governments is not supported by our Church's teaching, as found in the citations I have given. A much greater explication is found in many sections of the Compendium of the Social Doctrine of the Church, issued by the Pontifical Council for Justice and peace.Peter Maurinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-11601050663923712312011-02-20T17:47:08.299-05:002011-02-20T17:47:08.299-05:00Maurin. Why do you use the sola scriptura text-sl...Maurin. Why do you use the sola scriptura text-slinging method to prove your points? No one else has even hinted that the Church, Popes or Scripture have approved of Socialism or Marxism.<br /><br />I challenge you to cite any Church document or sections therein, any Scriptural passages or any CCC sections that support Socialism or Marxism. <br /><br />No one in this Blob objects to helping the poor. The disagreement is about how best to truly help them in a lasting way, while respecting their human dignity.<br /><br />You are no doubt an exception to the liberal penchant for "donating" everyone's money but their own to help the poor.<br /><br />Also, help me to understand how killing the private sector and therby killing jobs helps the poor?<br /><br />How does Obama's creating 200,000 federal bureaucratic jobs help the ecomony and/or the poor?<br /><br />Kindly answer the questions in good old plain English, and don't forget the cites.R. E. Alityhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14778574486104661142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-61999227649273147162011-02-19T09:53:17.405-05:002011-02-19T09:53:17.405-05:00That's better...That's better...Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-38829231159511227212011-02-19T09:08:37.893-05:002011-02-19T09:08:37.893-05:00No, I am not Pelagian, not even semi-Pelagian.
To...No, I am not Pelagian, not even semi-Pelagian.<br /><br />To be Pelagian I would have to have said, "Salvation is ATTAINED or CAUSED BY or BROUGHT ABOUT BY caring for the poor."<br /><br />Salvation is MADE PRESENT in acts or caring for the poor. The salvation CAUSED BY the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus, which dwells in each person through the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, is MADE PRESENT in the human person (incarnate) who, moved by the Spirit and acting on the grace of the already-won salvation, lives a life of virtue.Peter Maurinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-15826648138306162022011-02-18T20:29:48.640-05:002011-02-18T20:29:48.640-05:00"Salvation is made incarnate in us when we li..."Salvation is made incarnate in us when we live virtuous lives." That is Pelagianism. Salvation is incarnate in only one man, Christ. Perhaps you should have worded it differently...unless that is what you believe salvation to be...living a good and virtuous life here below, being "open" to everyone, never getting angry, taking poor people and minorities to lunch, avoiding straw men, driving a Pious...I mean a Prius...all with only the minimum of self-righteousness. That is indeed commendable.Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-36534233408359486282011-02-18T18:56:25.001-05:002011-02-18T18:56:25.001-05:00rcg: Notice the word "If" at the beginn...rcg: Notice the word "If" at the beginning of my second paragraph.Peter Maurinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-36402154285877406902011-02-18T13:36:34.389-05:002011-02-18T13:36:34.389-05:00It's easy to create a post and, when it sees t...It's easy to create a post and, when it sees the light of day, does really mean what the author meant.<br /><br />Maurin, you last post seems to say the Popes and Saints were Socialists. Assuming that is not what you meant it seems you would want differentiate the Church from socialism and communism to clear up any confusion concurrent actions might cause.<br /><br />rcgAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-64724454321679961592011-02-18T09:19:11.576-05:002011-02-18T09:19:11.576-05:00No one on this Blog is questioning our duty to the...No one on this Blog is questioning our duty to the poor or Christ's commandment to care for them. Your continued perseveration about it tells me you have nothing else to offer.For someone who complains about straw men, you have built a huge one.Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-75699275133568984772011-02-18T08:13:58.892-05:002011-02-18T08:13:58.892-05:00Papal teachings are not "talking points."...Papal teachings are not "talking points." They are the bases for action. A person can choose to act, basing his/her behaviour on the Church's teaching, or one can choose to prevaricate, throwing up smoke screens and sounding like so many right AND left wing TV Talking Heads. <br /><br /><br />If caring for the poor equates to socialiam and Marxism, I am, once again, in good company with popes, Saints, and a host of others who understood that salvation is made INCARNATE in us when we live virtuous lives.Peter Maurinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-19220159116092766792011-02-18T07:35:16.146-05:002011-02-18T07:35:16.146-05:00Excellent point concerning 'incarnate' vs ...Excellent point concerning 'incarnate' vs 'immanent'. Otherwise we could maintain a celestial balance sheet of good and bad actions. <br /><br />rcgAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-34035038663261673392011-02-18T06:24:30.632-05:002011-02-18T06:24:30.632-05:00Ality, I think you are my long lost twin! LOL!Ality, I think you are my long lost twin! LOL!Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-58118101634333672032011-02-17T23:13:39.443-05:002011-02-17T23:13:39.443-05:00Do Maurin's mauraders really help the poor by ...Do Maurin's mauraders really help the poor by decimating our economy, thus killing private sector jobs? <br /><br />Inflation is technically not a "tax" yet it is the cruelist, most regressive "tax" of all as it disproportionally harms the economically disadvantaged. <br /><br />Inflation fueled by liberal ideology and policies is an egregious assault on the poor. Liberals feel good when talking about the fundamental option for the poor. Conservatives prefer actually helping the poor instead of mouthing talking points.<br /><br />Too bad Bush isn't still President. Then we would be subjected to daily bombardment by the Media condemning the president for unemployment and inflation. <br />Maurin would gleefully join that chorus.<br /><br />Maurin's intellectual prowess is a case in point when considering that of those to whom much is given, much is expected. Such a gift should not be wasted on the failed ideologies of Socialism and Maraxism, neither of which is approved of by the Church or by those genuinely concerned for the poor or for the common good.R. E. Alityhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14778574486104661142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-61538465222303500792011-02-17T21:45:55.371-05:002011-02-17T21:45:55.371-05:00I have posted pretty much the same thing that R.E...I have posted pretty much the same thing that R.E. Ality posted, as have others. Maurin, who is Ignotus, continues to quote the obvious from various sources. What he misses is that this "option" for the poor has been co-opted by politically liberal factions within and without the Church and used as an anti-Capitalist, Socialist tool which, as Ality says, seeks to make the Church into a primarily social work organization.<br /><br />I particularly like his statement, "when that is done, salvation is made incarnate..." I rather think the proper word is "immanent," not incarnate. He is equating salvation with "caring for the poor." So, if the poor get on WIC, have wide screen TV's and Game Boys, and pretty much free access to Wal Mart, the Kingdom has come. Well, Halleluja, pass the corn bread!Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-83428483857891049202011-02-17T16:31:53.267-05:002011-02-17T16:31:53.267-05:00This thread took three posts to get hijacked.
H...This thread took three posts to get hijacked. <br /><br />Honestly, it is painful to read those passages from great Popes that naively placed so much faith in States that eventually turned their backs on them and create economic poverty from their laws. <br /><br />This makes me wonder even more if we have completely misunderstand the meaning of poverty as Christ does. <br /><br />rcgAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-52250591965574112842011-02-17T15:48:45.737-05:002011-02-17T15:48:45.737-05:00Speaking for God, the Church's fundamental opt...Speaking for God, the Church's fundamental option:<br /><br />"Our world is entering the new millennium burdened by the contradictions of an economic, cultural and technological progress which offers immense possibilities to a fortunate few, while leaving millions of others not only on the margins of progress but in living conditions far below the minimum demanded by human dignity...Christians must learn to make their act of faith in Christ by discerning his voice in the cry for help that rises from this world of poverty." Pope John Paul II, Novo Millennio Ineunte, Apostolic Letter at the Close of the Great Jubilee of the Year 2000, January 6, 2001<br /><br />"From salvation history we learn that power is responsibility: it is service, not privilege. Its exercise is morally justifiable when it is used for the good of all, when it is sensitive to the needs of the poor and defenseless. – Pope John Paul II, St. Louis, Missouri, January 1999<br /><br /><br />"Love for others, and especially for the poor, is made concrete by promoting justice."<br />–Pope John Paul II<br />Centesimus Annus (The Hundredth Year)<br /><br /><br />"In teaching us charity, the Gospel instructs us in the preferential respect due the poor and the special situation they have in society: the more fortunate should renounce some of their rights so as to place their goods more generously at the service of others."<br />–Pope Paul VI<br />Octogesima Adveniens (A Call to Action)<br /><br />"In protecting the rights of private individuals, however, special consideration must be given to the weak and the poor. For the nation, as it were, of the rich, is guarded by its own defenses and is in less need of governmental protection, whereas the suffering multitude, without the means to protect itself, relies especially on the protection of the State. Wherefore, since wage workers are numbered among the great mass of the needy, the State must include them under its special care and foresight." <br />–Pope Leo XIII<br />Rerum Novarum (On the Condition of Workers)<br /><br />God's fundamental option, according to popes, is caring for the poor. When that is done, salvation is made incarnate.Peter Maurinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-76004922582194350612011-02-17T15:08:34.374-05:002011-02-17T15:08:34.374-05:00National bishops' conferences? If the USCCB i...National bishops' conferences? If the USCCB is an indicator, their development has been a monumental disaster. How does having an Episcopal bureaucracy in the service of partisan liberal politics aid in the legitimate mission, teaching and governing functions of Bishops?<br />On another thread, a commentator mentioned that God's fundamental option is for the poor (meaning economically disadvantaged). Like St. Paul I thought the Church being all about Jesus Christ and Him crucified. Isn't God's fundamental option the redemption of all mankind thus facilitating each individual human's choice to accept or reject salvation? Thus, isn’t the Church's fundamental for the salvation of souls, rich and poor alike? Rome determined that it wasn’t Liberation Theology. You say, “what?” Rome, you know, where the chair of Peter, the Vicar of Christ resides.<br />Perhaps our most pedantic contributor could site chapter and verse from Holy Scripture to prove that its author substituted or even encouraged governmental theft for individual charity.R. E. Alityhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14778574486104661142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-59922605721013662592011-02-17T11:34:01.360-05:002011-02-17T11:34:01.360-05:00Such plans work well with Bishops like Lassard, le...Such plans work well with Bishops like Lassard, less so with weaker men. And the same can be argued with historically strong, sound Popes, versus weaker ones in history when Hierarchy was more rigid.<br /><br />I'm okay with the way you describe the Diocesan operations under Lassard, much less happy with Bishop's conferences. NOTHING good comes from Committees. <br /><br />God didn't send a us a Committee now did he?Templarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18204866760862707908noreply@blogger.com